Land or Go Around?
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........big jet............
So that will be between 1200 and 2000 kgs for a missed, circuit and land.
If Approach had passed you to Tower, then I would land - sort out the hassle on the ground rather than in the ground later on
So that will be between 1200 and 2000 kgs for a missed, circuit and land.
If Approach had passed you to Tower, then I would land - sort out the hassle on the ground rather than in the ground later on
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No argument - go around.
I failed to make a finals call on a controlled RAF airfield when under training years ago - though totally clear of traffic, the go-around call from the tower made the point that no landing without clearance should be attempted...
...especially since the Army co-used the airfield and frequently crossed the active in a jeep without clearance!
Think - emergency developing, and controller is otherwise occupied sorting it out. He expects you to go-around without clearance, but may not have had time to tell you. Who would look a prat if they ploughed into something they had not seen then...? Alternatively, who would care for the few extra tonnes of fuel burned if you went around and established contact...?
Easy answer.
Only an idiot would attempt a landing without clearance at a controlled airfield: tower controllers don't always sit in the same room as approach and ground controllers remember!
I failed to make a finals call on a controlled RAF airfield when under training years ago - though totally clear of traffic, the go-around call from the tower made the point that no landing without clearance should be attempted...
...especially since the Army co-used the airfield and frequently crossed the active in a jeep without clearance!
Think - emergency developing, and controller is otherwise occupied sorting it out. He expects you to go-around without clearance, but may not have had time to tell you. Who would look a prat if they ploughed into something they had not seen then...? Alternatively, who would care for the few extra tonnes of fuel burned if you went around and established contact...?
Easy answer.
Only an idiot would attempt a landing without clearance at a controlled airfield: tower controllers don't always sit in the same room as approach and ground controllers remember!
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Never land without a clearance
You might have an open mike.
If you think you have an open mike, say so on the frequency. That way you've informed Tower you have the open mike. They will give you a green light to land, or red for the miss.
If you cannot free the open mike, deselect the transmitter select switch. At least you're not sending out music to the ears of others as you curse the boss.
Whether you have an open mike or not, next time you brief an arrival make sure you brief where the Tower is located. Then you'll know where to look if searching for a green light. Sounds like 20/20, doesn't it.
Kai Tak, Hongkong. Runway 31. Early morning arrival. My mike gets stuck as we transfer to Tower. I try everything to free it. I even bang Boeing's column-mounted PTT a few times.
Our multi-skilled Captain gets engaged. He tries to use his hand mike, fly the plane, put the flaps out himself and generally save the day.
It's getting ugly. I suggest we go-round. He swears and carries like on like an old chook a little more. Music to the ears...
We go round, fly the missed approach, free the mike of its burden. In due course, Departures tell us to contact Tower. We get a clearance to land.
Talking to the Tower later on, they said they'd been flashing the green at us for some time on the first approach.
Lesson learned: brief where the Tower is located.
Finally, if you are NOT in possession of a clearance to land, don't.
This isn't subjective. Look up your manuals. Recall your training. We're not talking about military aviation here, nor emergencies, just plain old boring commercial aviation.
Keep it boring!
If you think you have an open mike, say so on the frequency. That way you've informed Tower you have the open mike. They will give you a green light to land, or red for the miss.
If you cannot free the open mike, deselect the transmitter select switch. At least you're not sending out music to the ears of others as you curse the boss.
Whether you have an open mike or not, next time you brief an arrival make sure you brief where the Tower is located. Then you'll know where to look if searching for a green light. Sounds like 20/20, doesn't it.
Kai Tak, Hongkong. Runway 31. Early morning arrival. My mike gets stuck as we transfer to Tower. I try everything to free it. I even bang Boeing's column-mounted PTT a few times.
Our multi-skilled Captain gets engaged. He tries to use his hand mike, fly the plane, put the flaps out himself and generally save the day.
It's getting ugly. I suggest we go-round. He swears and carries like on like an old chook a little more. Music to the ears...
We go round, fly the missed approach, free the mike of its burden. In due course, Departures tell us to contact Tower. We get a clearance to land.
Talking to the Tower later on, they said they'd been flashing the green at us for some time on the first approach.
Lesson learned: brief where the Tower is located.
Finally, if you are NOT in possession of a clearance to land, don't.
This isn't subjective. Look up your manuals. Recall your training. We're not talking about military aviation here, nor emergencies, just plain old boring commercial aviation.
Keep it boring!
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which bring me on to another question....how many pilots of large commercial airliners operating into a busy airport would really be looking out for the flashes of an ALDIS lamp if they went R/T fail. We have one in our tower, busy airport, its apparently never been out the box and probably doesn't work.
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Tower's green light?
To be sure, I admit I've rarely ever briefed where the Tower is during my descent briefings, both before or after our issue at Kai Tak.
Nor am I overly familiar with hand signals, until called on to use them when about to park after a diversion where there's limited ground support and signals are needed.
BB has a point.
My contribution was only that the funny thing about aviation is we never seem to make the same mistakes a second time - for at least two years.
By then the lessons we learned from the last stuff up are largely forgotten.
Checking where Tower is located is a sound idea yet rarely required.
No need to reinvent the wheel, but if you can make the edges rounder, all power to you.
And if you ever remember to check where the Tower's located, you may find it to be very useful information, one day, just like knowing those infernal hand signals
But landing without a clearance...
Nor am I overly familiar with hand signals, until called on to use them when about to park after a diversion where there's limited ground support and signals are needed.
BB has a point.
My contribution was only that the funny thing about aviation is we never seem to make the same mistakes a second time - for at least two years.
By then the lessons we learned from the last stuff up are largely forgotten.
Checking where Tower is located is a sound idea yet rarely required.
No need to reinvent the wheel, but if you can make the edges rounder, all power to you.
And if you ever remember to check where the Tower's located, you may find it to be very useful information, one day, just like knowing those infernal hand signals
But landing without a clearance...
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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As has already been pointed out, a clearance to approach is not a clearance to land.
Last time I visited a tower they had millions of dollars worth of electronic aids and they had Verey Flares ready to go, red and green.
No clearance then No land.
Last time I visited a tower they had millions of dollars worth of electronic aids and they had Verey Flares ready to go, red and green.
No clearance then No land.
No clearance then No land.
Land straight ahead provided the runway is clear. (We do this all the time at non-controlled airports).
Risk colliding with something on the ground.
Follow the missed approach procedure. Still no contact. Risk colliding with someone in the air?
There is no straight forward answer. Your experience and situational awareness (and gut feeling) on the day will dictate the most prudent course of action.
The regulations do not provide for all scenarios!
ECON cruise, LR cruise...
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Capt Fathom,
Hope your local ATC unit does not issue an approach clearance that does not include the eventuality of a missed approach
No, in fact, I know they don't...
If you go around and follow the published missed approach, you can pick up the pieces afterwards, in the hold somewhere. If you land, you force yourself to take a rather big decision in a rather small amount of time.
No doubt - you go around, end of story. Flying to and from a controlled AD is different from the uncontrolled version of same
Hope your local ATC unit does not issue an approach clearance that does not include the eventuality of a missed approach
No, in fact, I know they don't...
If you go around and follow the published missed approach, you can pick up the pieces afterwards, in the hold somewhere. If you land, you force yourself to take a rather big decision in a rather small amount of time.
No doubt - you go around, end of story. Flying to and from a controlled AD is different from the uncontrolled version of same
http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircra...ideo-8736.html
Here's one that should have been a go-around! (see 737 approach from around 3:20 in)
Here's one that should have been a go-around! (see 737 approach from around 3:20 in)
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The missed approach ends at a hold.
Enter it, check your Lost Comms procedure in whatever manuals you have.
Follow them; it's not hard.
Don't make a bad situation worse.
You cannot land without a clearance.
Enter it, check your Lost Comms procedure in whatever manuals you have.
Follow them; it's not hard.
Don't make a bad situation worse.
You cannot land without a clearance.
ECON cruise, LR cruise...
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...and the dilligent observer will find that most of these (all that I can think of at the mo, in fact) have a note or sub-page (like 10-10 or summat) explaining the lost comms missed approach
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Happened to me in real life - solution go-around
Visual approach to IOM with the approach then in 2 miles final switch to tower. The Captain gets the freq wrong by .005
So no rising the tower and no clearance to land. We go-around at 100 feet ground rise approach again on the previous and see the mishap on the tower freq. Everybody had a good laugh. And the Capt apologize to the PAX.
Comment from Tower: "Perfectly fine with us to go around as you had no contact". He made sure that we had landing clearance after a visual circuit when we were abeam and confirmed again on final. (I love the English humor)
Nothing happened. I don't want to know what would have happened if we hit something on the runway...
IMO: I would go-around again in this case and sort out the problem later.
Visual approach to IOM with the approach then in 2 miles final switch to tower. The Captain gets the freq wrong by .005
So no rising the tower and no clearance to land. We go-around at 100 feet ground rise approach again on the previous and see the mishap on the tower freq. Everybody had a good laugh. And the Capt apologize to the PAX.
Comment from Tower: "Perfectly fine with us to go around as you had no contact". He made sure that we had landing clearance after a visual circuit when we were abeam and confirmed again on final. (I love the English humor)
Nothing happened. I don't want to know what would have happened if we hit something on the runway...
IMO: I would go-around again in this case and sort out the problem later.
I don't want to know what would have happened if we hit something on the runway...
It's not rocket science!
My 2 cents:
If cleared approach and lost comms, couldn't reach the previous controller either, I'd land if I broke cloud and runway clear. Re-entering the clag, figuring out the miss, transition over to another approach, NORDO, seems a lot more risky and troublesome for the controller than landing. Clear day, plenty of fuel, mebbe go-around and have someone wake up the controller, BUT it seems too much like I'm up there flying around, so the ATCOs have something to do. Planes land all the time in my experience sans clearance because there isn't any controllers.
For the sake of argument, controlled field, no answer from the tower, your radios are working based on previous use--would you who say DO NOT land without clearance:
A) Circle the field until fuel exhaustion
B) Divert, VMC or IMC
C) Land and walk over to the tower and find out what's up with them
I'm for C
GF
If cleared approach and lost comms, couldn't reach the previous controller either, I'd land if I broke cloud and runway clear. Re-entering the clag, figuring out the miss, transition over to another approach, NORDO, seems a lot more risky and troublesome for the controller than landing. Clear day, plenty of fuel, mebbe go-around and have someone wake up the controller, BUT it seems too much like I'm up there flying around, so the ATCOs have something to do. Planes land all the time in my experience sans clearance because there isn't any controllers.
For the sake of argument, controlled field, no answer from the tower, your radios are working based on previous use--would you who say DO NOT land without clearance:
A) Circle the field until fuel exhaustion
B) Divert, VMC or IMC
C) Land and walk over to the tower and find out what's up with them
I'm for C
GF
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ATCers view point here http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=283048