Strange habits of your copilots...
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Strange habits of your copilots...
I'm always upset when I see copilots doing strange and silly things, and they reply "...because I was told to do so by XXXX".
For example, keeping the left hand on the thrust levers of a 737 after takeoff up to the after takeoff ck list.
We have instructors, apparently, teaching this to new copilots!!!
Or flying the takeoff profile with the Flight Director NOT centered, because " I was told the 737 has got fixed pitch attitudes of 17.5, then 10 degrees " and blah blah...
So the guy keeps a lower pitch (by 3 degrees) and faster speeds all the way to cleanup.
For example, keeping the left hand on the thrust levers of a 737 after takeoff up to the after takeoff ck list.
We have instructors, apparently, teaching this to new copilots!!!
Or flying the takeoff profile with the Flight Director NOT centered, because " I was told the 737 has got fixed pitch attitudes of 17.5, then 10 degrees " and blah blah...
So the guy keeps a lower pitch (by 3 degrees) and faster speeds all the way to cleanup.
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What about this; after T/O ATC told us 'left turn and proceed XXX waypoint,but my F/O didn't.I told him two times to turn,I tought he might have missed the clearance...He said he can not turn because we still have flaps 5.Anyway I immediately convinced him to turn in captain's way 
At cruise I've asked him to explain what was that and he said it is not a good airmenship to turn with flaps because it will be very bad if we loose an engine during turn bla bla bla...Now somebody tell me which department I should go
At cruise I've asked him to explain what was that and he said it is not a good airmenship to turn with flaps because it will be very bad if we loose an engine during turn bla bla bla...Now somebody tell me which department I should go
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Well LEM......
I'm always upset when I see captains flying the aircraft the way they think it should be flown in stead of using the procedures written by the manufactorer and approved by government.
Especially after implementation of new SOPs.
"Well you see Mr young pilot, I have flown this aircraft the last 15 years so I think I know how to fly it, I don't need new procedures"
Why the need for such an outburst on your colleagues in the RH seat?
I'm always upset when I see captains flying the aircraft the way they think it should be flown in stead of using the procedures written by the manufactorer and approved by government.
Especially after implementation of new SOPs.
"Well you see Mr young pilot, I have flown this aircraft the last 15 years so I think I know how to fly it, I don't need new procedures"
Why the need for such an outburst on your colleagues in the RH seat?
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Ha Ha,
Good one Danish, it goes both ways. I've seen Captains pull the speed brake in a 737 vnav decent, just to see the throttles go forward and the a/c nicely reduce the decent rate and recover back on vnav profile, much to the skippers bemusement. Everybody makes mistakes.
The problem is, F/O's (S/O's) such as myself, are very keen / desperate to learn. It is very difficult for right seat blokes to question certain things, (before the obvious start ranting, I mean non critical things, which can be checked later in the books etc for sop compliance) There are many perfectly acceptable "tricks", rules of thumb, or tips that thousands of F/O's learn from skippers which are great. The problem can be that if a Capt says its so, low houred guys question there own knowledge, especially during that flight. Dont get me wrong, I'm as thick as they come, ha ha, but mistakes and misunderstandings occur. As long as its safe, and its not the end of the world, use a nice bit of MCC/CRM straight from the book, and the guy/guyess in the other seat will love you for helping them correct their inadvertant mistake. Believe it or not, F/O's love flying with skippers who know there stuff.....
I'm a few shandies the wrong side of being chilled out, but were're all there to help each other, not to compete aren't we?
Good one Danish, it goes both ways. I've seen Captains pull the speed brake in a 737 vnav decent, just to see the throttles go forward and the a/c nicely reduce the decent rate and recover back on vnav profile, much to the skippers bemusement. Everybody makes mistakes.
The problem is, F/O's (S/O's) such as myself, are very keen / desperate to learn. It is very difficult for right seat blokes to question certain things, (before the obvious start ranting, I mean non critical things, which can be checked later in the books etc for sop compliance) There are many perfectly acceptable "tricks", rules of thumb, or tips that thousands of F/O's learn from skippers which are great. The problem can be that if a Capt says its so, low houred guys question there own knowledge, especially during that flight. Dont get me wrong, I'm as thick as they come, ha ha, but mistakes and misunderstandings occur. As long as its safe, and its not the end of the world, use a nice bit of MCC/CRM straight from the book, and the guy/guyess in the other seat will love you for helping them correct their inadvertant mistake. Believe it or not, F/O's love flying with skippers who know there stuff.....
I'm a few shandies the wrong side of being chilled out, but were're all there to help each other, not to compete aren't we?
I'm always upset when I see captains telling me not to do things the way that I was trained to do by a training captain.'
If you a not a company approved training (and check) captain, then shut your mouth and don't pretend to be one when you are not.
If you got any serious safety issues (not small issues which don't matter at all), then take it up with the training department and don't confuse us FO's by telling us to do something different to the way we were trained.
Then again, I am sure there are some FO's who like to do their own different thing. However a quick discussion with the training dep't should enable you to work out if the problem is with the FO not complying or his training.
If you a not a company approved training (and check) captain, then shut your
mouth and don't pretend to be one when you are not.If you got any serious safety issues (not small issues which don't matter at all), then take it up with the training department and don't confuse us FO's by telling us to do something different to the way we were trained.
Then again, I am sure there are some FO's who like to do their own different thing. However a quick discussion with the training dep't should enable you to work out if the problem is with the FO not complying or his training.
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John Citizen 
And what if you´re a FO who happens to BE an instructor and see the captain doing stupid things ?
I´ve seen all kinds of stupidities and I have never said anything unless safety was compromised or headed in that direction. I´ve seen captains forgetting to retract the speed brake and the throttles accelerating and wondering what the heck was going on, I ´ve seen people who don´t like to study and tell you to do things contrary to what´s written...nice to see their faces when you pull the book out of your case and show them that they´ve been screwing up for a while, and worse, telling others to follow their not recommended techniques.
LEM, the pilot flying next to you is not your copilot, he/she is one more pilot that happens to have been hired after you were, and if he´s not undergoing instruction (and you´re not an instructor, which it´s obvious you´re not) make sure you intervine in his flight only when safety is an issue, unless you want everyone to wish they could just call in sick everytime they have to fly with you.
SW.
And what if you´re a FO who happens to BE an instructor and see the captain doing stupid things ?
I´ve seen all kinds of stupidities and I have never said anything unless safety was compromised or headed in that direction. I´ve seen captains forgetting to retract the speed brake and the throttles accelerating and wondering what the heck was going on, I ´ve seen people who don´t like to study and tell you to do things contrary to what´s written...nice to see their faces when you pull the book out of your case and show them that they´ve been screwing up for a while, and worse, telling others to follow their not recommended techniques.
LEM, the pilot flying next to you is not your copilot, he/she is one more pilot that happens to have been hired after you were, and if he´s not undergoing instruction (and you´re not an instructor, which it´s obvious you´re not) make sure you intervine in his flight only when safety is an issue, unless you want everyone to wish they could just call in sick everytime they have to fly with you.
SW.
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LEM, your point has been entirely lost on a set of defensive aviators. Let us recall, LEM's gripe was with the "So and so told me...." type of justification. You all rail about SOP and the like, well if you know the SOP like the back of your hand it shouldn't be a problem, shouldn't be terribly "confusing" when you hear something contrary.
What happened to basic diplomacy? When the skipper says something totally daft, let it go, laugh internally, say "Oh, very interesting sir" and forget about it at the end of the trip. Your next captain will appreciate it very much if you reject such lousy "advice" and carry on as a professional, in accordance with SOP. Makes his job much easier. From the Captains perspective, LEM is right, it is frustrating to see a good FO do something stupid and use the opinons of a stupid aviator to justify it. At my airline we have one instructor who exerts an inordinately large impact on my aircraft type. At least once a week somebody utters the phrase "Well [Fred] says...." And I am forced to counter with "If [Fred] told you to jump off a cliff, would you? What does the book say?" Terribly frustrating.
Conversely, there are lots of tips and tricks that serve to make the operation more efficient, smooth, or comfortable, and they fall into the technique category vs. procedure. When a captain passes along a helpful hint, think about it, compare it with any SOP limitations, and make sure that you fully understand what is happening in the background before you implement your new trick.
As for this statement from sudden Winds -
This is a very dissapointing attitude (if you're an FO) or policy (if you're a CA). I read something on this board that epitomized the opposite of that thinking. Something to the effect of:
"To the great captains, who taught me something on every trip, thank you. To the horrible captains, thank you as well, for you also taught me something. To those that taught me nothing, thanks for nothing."
What happened to basic diplomacy? When the skipper says something totally daft, let it go, laugh internally, say "Oh, very interesting sir" and forget about it at the end of the trip. Your next captain will appreciate it very much if you reject such lousy "advice" and carry on as a professional, in accordance with SOP. Makes his job much easier. From the Captains perspective, LEM is right, it is frustrating to see a good FO do something stupid and use the opinons of a stupid aviator to justify it. At my airline we have one instructor who exerts an inordinately large impact on my aircraft type. At least once a week somebody utters the phrase "Well [Fred] says...." And I am forced to counter with "If [Fred] told you to jump off a cliff, would you? What does the book say?" Terribly frustrating.
Conversely, there are lots of tips and tricks that serve to make the operation more efficient, smooth, or comfortable, and they fall into the technique category vs. procedure. When a captain passes along a helpful hint, think about it, compare it with any SOP limitations, and make sure that you fully understand what is happening in the background before you implement your new trick.
As for this statement from sudden Winds -
LEM, the pilot flying next to you is not your copilot, he/she is one more pilot that happens to have been hired after you were, and if he´s not undergoing instruction (and you´re not an instructor, which it´s obvious you´re not) make sure you intervine in his flight only when safety is an issue,
"To the great captains, who taught me something on every trip, thank you. To the horrible captains, thank you as well, for you also taught me something. To those that taught me nothing, thanks for nothing."
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I understand your point, but keep in mind that when a rather new copilot answers "XXXX told me to do so" that´s probably because that pilot is answering to that question for the tenth time or so.
LEM mentions something about fixed attitudes. Someone must have told that copilot that initial target att at rotation is about 17.5 and then when u reach accel ht you lower the nose to about 10 and the a/c accelerates, and probably he thought he had to select those attitudes....regardless of what the FD says. If LEM, instead of getting upset, explains to the copilot that the FD provides Optimum pitch guidance and those 10 degrees may not always be 10, sometimes they´ll be 11, sometimes 12, and that by following a reasonable FD command he´s also protected if he encounters windshear, that´ll make the whole ride more enjoyable...I guarantee you, a captain wouldn´t like my answer if he started yelling at me for not being following a FD command by 3 degrees (especially if he does so at 1000 ft AGL) (My reply would come at FL100 + 1 foot, btw)
Maybe some other captain told that copilot to select initially those attitudes and then compensate for FD deviations, keep in mind that FD command bars induce some overcontrolling (especially the x-pointer type) if you try to nail it.
My conclusion is that you can always point out someone else´s mistakes politely and constructively, and you´ll get whole lot better results than if you just get upset and immediately question a method or technique.
Cardinal, teaching something is not what I consider an intervention. I am an FO and I have an excellent relationship with most of the captains I get to fly with, and of course I learn a lot from them. Everyday before I am informed who the captain I ´ll fly with is, I am hoping I fly with someone that will teach me something if he gets a chance and not someone like LEM that will just get upset if I do something he doesn´t like.
I am disappointed you misinterpreted my comment.
Regards,
SW.
LEM mentions something about fixed attitudes. Someone must have told that copilot that initial target att at rotation is about 17.5 and then when u reach accel ht you lower the nose to about 10 and the a/c accelerates, and probably he thought he had to select those attitudes....regardless of what the FD says. If LEM, instead of getting upset, explains to the copilot that the FD provides Optimum pitch guidance and those 10 degrees may not always be 10, sometimes they´ll be 11, sometimes 12, and that by following a reasonable FD command he´s also protected if he encounters windshear, that´ll make the whole ride more enjoyable...I guarantee you, a captain wouldn´t like my answer if he started yelling at me for not being following a FD command by 3 degrees (especially if he does so at 1000 ft AGL) (My reply would come at FL100 + 1 foot, btw)
Maybe some other captain told that copilot to select initially those attitudes and then compensate for FD deviations, keep in mind that FD command bars induce some overcontrolling (especially the x-pointer type) if you try to nail it.
My conclusion is that you can always point out someone else´s mistakes politely and constructively, and you´ll get whole lot better results than if you just get upset and immediately question a method or technique.
Cardinal, teaching something is not what I consider an intervention. I am an FO and I have an excellent relationship with most of the captains I get to fly with, and of course I learn a lot from them. Everyday before I am informed who the captain I ´ll fly with is, I am hoping I fly with someone that will teach me something if he gets a chance and not someone like LEM that will just get upset if I do something he doesn´t like.
I am disappointed you misinterpreted my comment.
Regards,
SW.
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Let us not forget that the real villain of the piece is the trainer who confuses everyone by demanding that the F/O's operate the aircraft in an unusual and non-standard way.
It is a sad state of affairs when F/O's have to disregard or second guess the directions of the airlines own training staff.
It is a sad state of affairs when F/O's have to disregard or second guess the directions of the airlines own training staff.
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Well sometimes saying "I do this cause I was told so by XXXX" is a very good way to shut up captains who fly own invented procedures and then comments your way of flying.
Quite a few issues but here goes!
The last thing you want on the flightdeck is an argument! If what is being done is safe notwithstanding that you have drawn attention to the fact that it is not in accordance with SOPS then I feel you have as the second in command done your job. If its not safe that is a different matter!
Its surely not so much a question of what so and so told you to do but what the operations manual for your company states. I like the phrase "Documentation beats Conversation" - consulting the manuals is professional and takes away the personality aspect! Remember dont shoot the messenger, even trainers are human and sometimes dont get it right!
Maintain good relationships with whoever you are flying with and dont get into the us and them syndrome!
The last thing you want on the flightdeck is an argument! If what is being done is safe notwithstanding that you have drawn attention to the fact that it is not in accordance with SOPS then I feel you have as the second in command done your job. If its not safe that is a different matter!
Its surely not so much a question of what so and so told you to do but what the operations manual for your company states. I like the phrase "Documentation beats Conversation" - consulting the manuals is professional and takes away the personality aspect! Remember dont shoot the messenger, even trainers are human and sometimes dont get it right!
Maintain good relationships with whoever you are flying with and dont get into the us and them syndrome!
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fireflybob I totally agree with you.
And 95% of the time when I am at work everything goes smooth with the cowork.
And as I am gaining experience I also see what I can use when a cpt says something to me and when I just wan't to let it pass right through.
But sometimes when you just get tired of listening to a cpt who think he is a training cpt but isn't and the way he gives his "advice" is not in a training cpt way - THEN - it is a nice way to make him shut it.
I am also being large regarding my tolerance with cpts who doesn't fly as perfect as the training cpts but it would become a very bad work environment if we all make comments on the way the other guy makes his work - as long as it is safe let it go in the air, and when on the ground we can talk about it if deemed necessary.
I am sure I can learn from normal cpts but just don't tell me in a "do this do that" tone.
And 95% of the time when I am at work everything goes smooth with the cowork.
And as I am gaining experience I also see what I can use when a cpt says something to me and when I just wan't to let it pass right through.
But sometimes when you just get tired of listening to a cpt who think he is a training cpt but isn't and the way he gives his "advice" is not in a training cpt way - THEN - it is a nice way to make him shut it.
I am also being large regarding my tolerance with cpts who doesn't fly as perfect as the training cpts but it would become a very bad work environment if we all make comments on the way the other guy makes his work - as long as it is safe let it go in the air, and when on the ground we can talk about it if deemed necessary.
I am sure I can learn from normal cpts but just don't tell me in a "do this do that" tone.
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The way you should act is relatively simple: If it's written down in the SOP, then there is no discussion, do it this way.
If it is something not written down, then you can do it eighter way, and I as a captain should not interfere.
In practical terms it's sometimes hard not to say anything, but as long as it's safe and reasonable economic, you can let the other pilot let make the "mistake".
If I see that the other guy's doing it over and over and not learning it, then you might give him a hint.
Dani
If it is something not written down, then you can do it eighter way, and I as a captain should not interfere.
In practical terms it's sometimes hard not to say anything, but as long as it's safe and reasonable economic, you can let the other pilot let make the "mistake".
If I see that the other guy's doing it over and over and not learning it, then you might give him a hint.
Dani
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Shock horror,stop the press! A new generation of first officers discovers that everybody is different.It was ever the burden on the fo to have a little book of captain's likes and dislikes.There are many ways to skin a cat within the framework of decent sops.Remember, the object of the exercise is to get the aircraft to do what you want it to by using whatever mode or method is allowed and available. It is not just a matter of pressing a sequence of buttons in a set order and going along for the ride.
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following a reasonable FD command he´s also protected if he encounters windshear
I find a simple, "where in the book does it say THAT!" works good. In the Reserves, so many airline pilots, so many techniques and procedures applied to totally irrelevant plane. I learned many techniques that are perfect on Boeings and Douglas' do not work on Lockheed's finest, much embarrassment there.
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I like it when captains:
CP-It's you sector son. How much fuel would you like?? Let's make it a nice day out.
FO-Well blablablabla Cb's, Italy blablabla. Shall we take 7.8.
CP-Well, No, I was actually thinking of 7.7.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
CP-It's you sector son. How much fuel would you like?? Let's make it a nice day out.
FO-Well blablablabla Cb's, Italy blablabla. Shall we take 7.8.
CP-Well, No, I was actually thinking of 7.7.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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what part of "reasonable" ....
Tee Emm,
Did you read where it says "reasonable" ´cause I see you quoted it...
That´s exactly my point. An FD command should be followed as long as it´s reasonable and won´t put us into a CFIT or upset situation. Most FDs nowadays incorporate initial windshear guidance, but their recovery capability maybe overwhelmed by the severity of the WS. In this case a pilot must fly the airplane out of the ws him/herself. Reasonable commands should be followed without overcontrolling. Knowing approximate attitude for certain flight phases helps a lot.
Reasonable !!!
Did you read where it says "reasonable" ´cause I see you quoted it...
That´s exactly my point. An FD command should be followed as long as it´s reasonable and won´t put us into a CFIT or upset situation. Most FDs nowadays incorporate initial windshear guidance, but their recovery capability maybe overwhelmed by the severity of the WS. In this case a pilot must fly the airplane out of the ws him/herself. Reasonable commands should be followed without overcontrolling. Knowing approximate attitude for certain flight phases helps a lot.
Reasonable !!!