Circling Approach tricks in the simulator.
Yes dear boy, I totally agree with you but, in most simulators, you will not always be able to see the landing runway because of the limitations of the visual system, until you are within about 30° of the runway heading.
I say again, and I doubt that you will disagree with me, you must NOT leave circling minima until you have the lights in sight.
We are not talking about the real world of flying real aeroplanes. The question was "how can I do it in a simulator".
(Puts even more armour on).
I say again, and I doubt that you will disagree with me, you must NOT leave circling minima until you have the lights in sight.
We are not talking about the real world of flying real aeroplanes. The question was "how can I do it in a simulator".
(Puts even more armour on).
Mach 3
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Whereupon I refer the honourable gentlemen to my previous point...
Isn't this ludicrous?
I shouldn't have to be learning how to do a visual manoeuvre in the sim...especially if the techniques differ!
That is a categoric recipe for disaster.
BTW, I thought JAA minima (MDH) for a Circling Approach was 600ft/2400m?
The Boeing 737 FCTM has instructions on how to fly a Circling Manoeuvre.
All the techniques suggested for using the FMC in the fashion suggested, assume the ANP is pretty much zero - a problem conveniently forgotten about in the sim.
In a radio updating environment, one would hope that ANP is significantly less than RNP and certain FMC updates will alert you to the fact that it isn't, but even being 0.3nm displaced from where you really are is going to make your life difficult on this hybrid RNAV Circling Manoeuvre!
Look out the window.
Isn't this ludicrous?
I shouldn't have to be learning how to do a visual manoeuvre in the sim...especially if the techniques differ!
That is a categoric recipe for disaster.
BTW, I thought JAA minima (MDH) for a Circling Approach was 600ft/2400m?
The Boeing 737 FCTM has instructions on how to fly a Circling Manoeuvre.
All the techniques suggested for using the FMC in the fashion suggested, assume the ANP is pretty much zero - a problem conveniently forgotten about in the sim.
In a radio updating environment, one would hope that ANP is significantly less than RNP and certain FMC updates will alert you to the fact that it isn't, but even being 0.3nm displaced from where you really are is going to make your life difficult on this hybrid RNAV Circling Manoeuvre!
Look out the window.
The circling approach in the sim can be very tricky as the visuals can easily screw you up,it's happened to me more than once. Where as doing a circling approach in the real aircraft in my opinion is a lot easier.
JW411, I'm puzzled by what the Guam 747 accident got to do with circling approaches: it was an ILS flown with no glideslope.
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At the completion of the downwind, timed leg, you will need to commence a gentle (200fpm) decent as soon as you turn the heading bug onto the runway heading
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Are you thinking of the Air China B767 at Busan?
http://aviation-safety.net/database/...?id=20020415-0
http://www.flightsafety.org/ap/ap_dec05.pdf
Circled and crashed at the (TERPS) Cat C MDA.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/...?id=20020415-0
http://www.flightsafety.org/ap/ap_dec05.pdf
Circled and crashed at the (TERPS) Cat C MDA.
Last edited by Zeffy; 27th Jun 2007 at 18:30. Reason: added FSF AP Link
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Here's the Skinny
The circling approaches that are done in the sim are done because that is the way that the Sim is certified for, not the way you will actually fly the circling approach in real life. You have to maintain visual contact with the runway during a circling approach so when doing a real one in the sim you will loose the visual so hence the screwed up way to do it.
In the US most sims are certified to do the straight in approach to runway 4r at KJFK then circle to land 31R. When you have a good sim with daytime visual there is no need for FMS work as you can see every detail including the hotel and layover bar so keeping contact with the runway is no problem as you VISUALLY fly the approach.
In a real circling approach in the airplane you do it according to your manual and time the legs accordingly, this should be taught once in the sim, usually on day 1 on how to do it properly.
Having said all that, your sim instructor should have tips and gouges on how to fly the checkride circling approach so you dont screw it up. Turning wide on final is NOT a bust over here unless your unstablized by 1000 IMC or 500 VMC and still try and salvage it.
If you do screw it up then all youll get is a circling restriction on your license or we can stop the exam during the ride and train you properly on how to do it and continue the ride and repeat it and if it is successfull then you are golden
Also keep in mind that most airlines have a restriction in their OPSPECS to not commence a circling approach unless it is 1000 and 3, far above the minimums for circling.
Hope this helps
In the US most sims are certified to do the straight in approach to runway 4r at KJFK then circle to land 31R. When you have a good sim with daytime visual there is no need for FMS work as you can see every detail including the hotel and layover bar so keeping contact with the runway is no problem as you VISUALLY fly the approach.
In a real circling approach in the airplane you do it according to your manual and time the legs accordingly, this should be taught once in the sim, usually on day 1 on how to do it properly.
Having said all that, your sim instructor should have tips and gouges on how to fly the checkride circling approach so you dont screw it up. Turning wide on final is NOT a bust over here unless your unstablized by 1000 IMC or 500 VMC and still try and salvage it.
If you do screw it up then all youll get is a circling restriction on your license or we can stop the exam during the ride and train you properly on how to do it and continue the ride and repeat it and if it is successfull then you are golden
Also keep in mind that most airlines have a restriction in their OPSPECS to not commence a circling approach unless it is 1000 and 3, far above the minimums for circling.
Hope this helps
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Also keep in mind that most airlines have a restriction in their OPSPECS to not commence a circling approach unless it is 1000 and 3, far above the minimums for circling.
Circling MDA's provide no more than 300' of Required Obstacle Clearance.
Maneuvering beneath a 1000' ceiling may --- or very well may not ---provide additional margin above the dirt/trees/rocks/obstructions.
Please -- high HAA's do NOT imply additional ROC.
IMO, the concept upon which the referenced OpSpec has been predicated is fundamentally flawed.
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Hello
I agree with what you say, perhaps I mispoke and implied that the circling begin at 1000'.
This is just a VISIBILITY requirement but operators must adhere to the proper minimums for safe obstruction clearance, hence the need to go to minimums and circle for proper distance to the airport
Thanks
This is just a VISIBILITY requirement but operators must adhere to the proper minimums for safe obstruction clearance, hence the need to go to minimums and circle for proper distance to the airport
Thanks
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how to fly the checkride circling approach so you dont screw it up. Turning wide on final is NOT a bust over here unless your unstablized by 1000 IMC or 500 VMC and still try and salvage it.
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As a 'by-the'by', triggered by the words "Turning wide on final", how do folk in TERPS land stay within 1.7nm of the runway? It is virtually impossible to do this even in a 737, and as we know, the 2002 Busan fatal (767) was at 2.2nm from the threshold.
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What happened to : "Extensive use of the FMC (heads down) should be avoided bellow 10.000ft" ? Our books mention this a couple of times.
My trick (ever since I started using this, my life became sooo much easier), is the following and it is for all types of Boeing (prob Airbus too).
A/p engaged. When time's up on downwind, I turn the hdg sel knob ALL THE WAY to rwy QDM, corrected fro wind (no more than 10 deg usually).
Then I look on my map or ND and am looking at the white turn vector. (it looks better if your range is set at 20NM, because you see two lines instead of one). If the trend shows that I will undershoot, I change the bank angle selector to a smaller value (ie. 15deg). I continue fiddling with the bank angle selector until the projection shows that I will be right on the centerline.
If the at the start it shows that I will overshoot, in some types you can change from 25 to 30 degrees. If not, well, thats the best you can do. At least you know beforehand.
It needs to be practiced a couple of times before the first ever go. After that, it becomes 2nd nature.
I have never been criticised for using this technique by a TRE for the past 12 sim rides at least. They are so impressed form the outcome that there is little they can say
My trick (ever since I started using this, my life became sooo much easier), is the following and it is for all types of Boeing (prob Airbus too).
A/p engaged. When time's up on downwind, I turn the hdg sel knob ALL THE WAY to rwy QDM, corrected fro wind (no more than 10 deg usually).
Then I look on my map or ND and am looking at the white turn vector. (it looks better if your range is set at 20NM, because you see two lines instead of one). If the trend shows that I will undershoot, I change the bank angle selector to a smaller value (ie. 15deg). I continue fiddling with the bank angle selector until the projection shows that I will be right on the centerline.
If the at the start it shows that I will overshoot, in some types you can change from 25 to 30 degrees. If not, well, thats the best you can do. At least you know beforehand.
It needs to be practiced a couple of times before the first ever go. After that, it becomes 2nd nature.
I have never been criticised for using this technique by a TRE for the past 12 sim rides at least. They are so impressed form the outcome that there is little they can say
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I continue fiddling with the bank angle selector until the projection shows that I will be right on the centerline.
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Once again, my good friend, Centaurus, has “nailed” the answer to what some believe is a difficult issue to understand. A circling approach is a visual conclusion to an instrument approach procedure. It is predicated on the pilot being able to visually acquire and identify the airport, and keep at least some of that identified airport in sight throughout the maneuver. This does not include a “heads down” FMC, or similar, procedure. There is no airplane manufacturer, at least of whom I am aware, that advocates “heads down MAP reading” while engaged in any visual maneuvering – circling approach or other. In fact, in the US, here is the regulatory requirement that speaks to this particular issue:
In case anyone may wonder what is considered “an identifiable part of the airport,” that includes the runway, other runways, taxiways, lighting systems, ramps, buildings, including the terminal, etc. Basically it includes structures on the AIRPORT. It does not include the expressway overpass or the fast food restaurant just the north of the final approach. Those are NOT part of the Airport. Also, it would be just as phony to “build” additional reference points into a simulator’s visual scene that are not present in the real world.
Additionally, regarding some of the comments about when to begin a descent from MDA when conducting a circling approach – again, admittedly, from the US point of reference – here is the regulatory requirement that speaks to this specific issue.
Centaurus is absolutely correct in that some operators have fallen into the trap of using the simulator to teach “trick flying using instrument navigation to solve a visual problem” in an effort to simply “fill the square” of having to meet a circling approach requirement. This should be easily recognized by the fact that in almost all of those “trick” solutions, the pilot flying must necessarily lose sight of not just the landing runway, but lose sight of the entire airport – and in some cases for a reasonably extended period of time. In the real world this may very well lead to disastrous consequences. There should be no operator, anywhere, who should allow, let alone teach, such practices – and no regulatory authority would approve such a practice.
FAR Section 91.175(e)(2) Missed approach procedures.
“Each pilot operating an aircraft, except a military aircraft of the United States, shall immediately execute an appropriate missed approach procedure … Whenever an identifiable part of the airport is not distinctly visible to the pilot during a circling maneuver at or above MDA, unless the inability to see an identifiable part of the airport results only from a normal bank of the aircraft during the circling approach.”
“Each pilot operating an aircraft, except a military aircraft of the United States, shall immediately execute an appropriate missed approach procedure … Whenever an identifiable part of the airport is not distinctly visible to the pilot during a circling maneuver at or above MDA, unless the inability to see an identifiable part of the airport results only from a normal bank of the aircraft during the circling approach.”
Additionally, regarding some of the comments about when to begin a descent from MDA when conducting a circling approach – again, admittedly, from the US point of reference – here is the regulatory requirement that speaks to this specific issue.
FAR 91.175(c)(1) Operation below DH or MDA.
“Except as provided in paragraph (l) of this section, where a DH or MDA is applicable, no pilot may operate an aircraft, except a military aircraft of the United States, at any airport below the authorized MDA or continue an approach below the authorized DH unless … (1) The aircraft is continuously in a position from which a descent to a landing on the intended runway can be made at a normal rate of descent using normal maneuvers, and for operations conducted under part 121 or part 135 unless that descent rate will allow touchdown to occur within the touchdown zone of the runway of intended landing;”
“Except as provided in paragraph (l) of this section, where a DH or MDA is applicable, no pilot may operate an aircraft, except a military aircraft of the United States, at any airport below the authorized MDA or continue an approach below the authorized DH unless … (1) The aircraft is continuously in a position from which a descent to a landing on the intended runway can be made at a normal rate of descent using normal maneuvers, and for operations conducted under part 121 or part 135 unless that descent rate will allow touchdown to occur within the touchdown zone of the runway of intended landing;”
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Tee Emm, you will have to fiddle with something on the MCP anyway, since we all agree that the use of the autopilot is very helpfull while you are
looking out.
Instead of fiddling with the HDG SEL to achieve wings level-correct track and on the extended centerlline, you can use the bank angle selector to "tighten" or "open" your tradjectory. Trust me, after two or three adjustments, you will not have to touch it again beyond half way through the turn.
Obviously, Boeing makes no mention about this procedure in the manuals. It has no guidance for the use of the MCP for this maneuver...period. Bank angle selector is there, so it can be used. It is just another roll control feature. There is no limitation about it.
We are just using it for the bank angle 15 on one engine, and we think that this is all it is meant to do. If that was true, it would have only selection "15" and "AUTO". It does not though.
By all means, I am not saying that this is the God sent method of flying circling aproaches and everything else is wrong. All am saying is that I have being using this for some years now and it works very well with no long faces from TREs.
It is just food for thought.
looking out.
Instead of fiddling with the HDG SEL to achieve wings level-correct track and on the extended centerlline, you can use the bank angle selector to "tighten" or "open" your tradjectory. Trust me, after two or three adjustments, you will not have to touch it again beyond half way through the turn.
Obviously, Boeing makes no mention about this procedure in the manuals. It has no guidance for the use of the MCP for this maneuver...period. Bank angle selector is there, so it can be used. It is just another roll control feature. There is no limitation about it.
We are just using it for the bank angle 15 on one engine, and we think that this is all it is meant to do. If that was true, it would have only selection "15" and "AUTO". It does not though.
By all means, I am not saying that this is the God sent method of flying circling aproaches and everything else is wrong. All am saying is that I have being using this for some years now and it works very well with no long faces from TREs.
It is just food for thought.
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AirRabbit,
I did say as much.
The ICAO reference is in Doc 8168, Section 1, Part 4, Chapter 7.
As for descents below MDA/H, it says:
I did say as much.
The ICAO reference is in Doc 8168, Section 1, Part 4, Chapter 7.
As for descents below MDA/H, it says:
When the OCA/H is established, an MDA/H is also specified to allow for operational considerations. Descent below
MDA/H should not be made until:
a) visual reference has been established and can be maintained;
b) the pilot has the landing threshold in sight; and
c) the required obstacle clearance can be maintained and the aircraft is in a position to carry out a landing
MDA/H should not be made until:
a) visual reference has been established and can be maintained;
b) the pilot has the landing threshold in sight; and
c) the required obstacle clearance can be maintained and the aircraft is in a position to carry out a landing
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I am not sure that reputable regulatory authorities would permit this. Certainly the Boeing FCTM section on circling approach procedure makes no specific direction in terms of FMC navigation in lieu of visual navigation. In marked contrast the FCTM does publish extensive information on FMC planning for instrument approaches. This suggests Boeing does not encourage heads down MAP reading during a visual circling manoeuvre?
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Hi Dream Land:
What you suggest happens is not entirely true.
The regulatory authority in the US (the FAA) does not authorize circling approaches in a simulator that has not been evaluated to be able to do so WHILE complying with the regulatory requirement I quoted above (...must maintain an identifiable portion of the airport in sight throughout the maneuver); AND the maneuver demonstrated must be flown where there is at least a 90 degree difference from the approach to the landing runway - (i.e., Memphis Tennessee approach to Rnwy 27 circle to land on Rnwy 18R) - there are several such runway combinations at US airports. Once successfully evaluated, the simulator may then be approved for circling approaches; but not until then.
What you suggest happens is not entirely true.
The regulatory authority in the US (the FAA) does not authorize circling approaches in a simulator that has not been evaluated to be able to do so WHILE complying with the regulatory requirement I quoted above (...must maintain an identifiable portion of the airport in sight throughout the maneuver); AND the maneuver demonstrated must be flown where there is at least a 90 degree difference from the approach to the landing runway - (i.e., Memphis Tennessee approach to Rnwy 27 circle to land on Rnwy 18R) - there are several such runway combinations at US airports. Once successfully evaluated, the simulator may then be approved for circling approaches; but not until then.