Circling Approach tricks in the simulator.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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If the circling approach HAS to be included in a sim detail, it could be so much more 'do-able' if it allowed the circle on the 'easy' side. My last 'circling' in the LHS required a right-hand circuit due to the approach/vis and landing runway selected. Out of interest no FMC was harmed in the production of the manoeuvre but there had to be a portion where the runway lights were effectively out of sight to both, and since they were the only 'visual' clues on a 'generic' airfield, rendered it technically incorrect. Should we be reviewing the way we 'fudge' the requirement to get the all-important 'tick in the box'?
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Hi BOAC:
I think you raise a good question; "Should we be reviewing the way we 'fudge' the requirement to get the all-important 'tick in the box'?"
And the way I'd answer would be to ask 1) what is it the pilot will be expected to do on a cold, dark, and stormy night; 2) when something goes dreadfully wrong, who is it who is going to pay the ulitmate price, and 3) who is going to have to "pay-the-cheque" when the law suits start appearing? - and you know they will...
I think you raise a good question; "Should we be reviewing the way we 'fudge' the requirement to get the all-important 'tick in the box'?"
And the way I'd answer would be to ask 1) what is it the pilot will be expected to do on a cold, dark, and stormy night; 2) when something goes dreadfully wrong, who is it who is going to pay the ulitmate price, and 3) who is going to have to "pay-the-cheque" when the law suits start appearing? - and you know they will...
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Fascinating thread. Perhaps two systems at work here? The US system seems to allow lower circling minima and much tighter circuits (TERPS?) Must you be visual with the airfield at all times?
The JAA circling approach allows you to lose visual contact with the field as long as you stay within the circling area and above circlng minima for the sector you are in until you become visual. 5.28 nm for Cat D aircraft. FMC used for wind assessment mostly. How do you stay visual in a jet, downwind 3 or 4 miles from an airfield?
The JAA circling approach allows you to lose visual contact with the field as long as you stay within the circling area and above circlng minima for the sector you are in until you become visual. 5.28 nm for Cat D aircraft. FMC used for wind assessment mostly. How do you stay visual in a jet, downwind 3 or 4 miles from an airfield?
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Hi Bally Heck:
You too, ask a good question, "How do you stay visual in a jet, downwind 3 or 4 miles from an airfield?"
The answer is, I suppose, that according to the US rules, a normally recognized traffic pattern is not expected to be flown - so a "crosswind," "downwind," or "base" leg are not part of a circling approach.
As far as the US rules allowing a "lower circling minima" is concerned, I guess that would depend on "lower" than what; lower than VFR conditions, most of the times, yes; but circling minima are normally higher (in some cases significantly higher) than the associated straight-in instrument minima. Many US operators have decided, on their own, to limit circling approaches for their operation to minima equal to VFR minimums (1000 feet and 3 miles).
However, even at VFR minima, I have always wondered about the sanity of anyone wanting to deliberately take a jet (particularly the types of jets that are in air transportation service today) and wander around down amongst the "weeds!"
And ... with respect to the JAA requirements for circling approaches ... how is one to determine they ARE remaining within the circling approach area if they no longer have visual contact with the airport?
You too, ask a good question, "How do you stay visual in a jet, downwind 3 or 4 miles from an airfield?"
The answer is, I suppose, that according to the US rules, a normally recognized traffic pattern is not expected to be flown - so a "crosswind," "downwind," or "base" leg are not part of a circling approach.
As far as the US rules allowing a "lower circling minima" is concerned, I guess that would depend on "lower" than what; lower than VFR conditions, most of the times, yes; but circling minima are normally higher (in some cases significantly higher) than the associated straight-in instrument minima. Many US operators have decided, on their own, to limit circling approaches for their operation to minima equal to VFR minimums (1000 feet and 3 miles).
However, even at VFR minima, I have always wondered about the sanity of anyone wanting to deliberately take a jet (particularly the types of jets that are in air transportation service today) and wander around down amongst the "weeds!"
And ... with respect to the JAA requirements for circling approaches ... how is one to determine they ARE remaining within the circling approach area if they no longer have visual contact with the airport?
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Many US operators have decided, on their own, to limit circling approaches for their operation to minima equal to VFR minimums (1000 feet and 3 miles).
"Equal to VFR minimums" does not imply 1000 feet of ROC.
TERPS provides 300' above the controlling obstacle and very little maneuvering room.
No crew should ever infer that circling at 1000 AFE is a walk in the park.
Note that the Cat D circling MDA at KORH is almost exactly 1000 feet above the airport.
How many pilots fully grasp that the circling maneuver at KORH in the "comfort" of 1000-3 weather will include trolling for obstacles a scant 300 feet below?
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Hi Zeffy
Hence, my comment ... "even at VFR minima, I have always wondered about the sanity of anyone wanting to deliberately take a jet (particularly the types of jets that are in air transportation service today) and wander around down amongst the "weeds!"
Originally Posted by Zeffy
That's what I was ranting about earlier -- i.e., the FAA's "1000-3 club".
"Equal to VFR minimums" does not imply 1000 feet of ROC.
TERPS provides 300' above the controlling obstacle and very little maneuvering room.
No crew should ever infer that circling at 1000 AFE is a walk in the park.
Note that the Cat D circling MDA at KORH is almost exactly 1000 feet above the airport.
How many pilots fully grasp that the circling maneuver at KORH in the "comfort" of 1000-3 weather will include trolling for obstacles a scant 300 feet below?
"Equal to VFR minimums" does not imply 1000 feet of ROC.
TERPS provides 300' above the controlling obstacle and very little maneuvering room.
No crew should ever infer that circling at 1000 AFE is a walk in the park.
Note that the Cat D circling MDA at KORH is almost exactly 1000 feet above the airport.
How many pilots fully grasp that the circling maneuver at KORH in the "comfort" of 1000-3 weather will include trolling for obstacles a scant 300 feet below?
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The JAA circling approach allows you to lose visual contact with the field as long as you stay within the circling area and above circlng minima for the sector you are in until you become visual.
PAN OPS Doc 8168,
7.2.2 After initial visual contact, the basic assumption is that the runway environment should be kept in sight while at minimum descent altitudeheight (MDA/H) for circling. The runway enviroiunent includes features such as the runway threshold or approach lighting aids or other markings identifiable with the runway.
7.4.1 If visual reference is lost while circling to land from an instrument approach, the missed approach specified
for that particular procedure must be followed. The pilot will make an initial climbing turn toward the landing runway
and overhead the aerodronie. At this point, the pilot will establish the aircraft climbing on the missed approach hack.
for that particular procedure must be followed. The pilot will make an initial climbing turn toward the landing runway
and overhead the aerodronie. At this point, the pilot will establish the aircraft climbing on the missed approach hack.
