flying through cb(s)
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spelling police?
relax--i guess you would have said that Richard Feynman had no business being a scientist or instructor, since he couldn't spell either.
the only purpose of language is to get the thought across---and he did that quite well at least in my opinion.
the only purpose of language is to get the thought across---and he did that quite well at least in my opinion.
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Thank you for the suggestions, and I actually have read the one by Buck already.
I was just trying to express my admiration to the kind of work guppy does, and that I find it most interessting to find out about the things a weather research pilot has to go through...
Nic
I was just trying to express my admiration to the kind of work guppy does, and that I find it most interessting to find out about the things a weather research pilot has to go through...
Nic
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I'm not actually in weather research. I've done it, but I'm not what you'd call a weather research pilot, not by a long shot. The guys doing that full time go a lot further than I'm willing to go.
I'm a wimp when it comes to convective weather, and it's exactly how I want to stay.
I'm a wimp when it comes to convective weather, and it's exactly how I want to stay.
An interesting experience.
A few years back I was departing Rome as SLF on a BA B737. There was a major thunderstorm brewing as we began the taxi out. As we taxied into the teeth of the thing it went very dark except for the frequent flashes of lightning. Dust was swirling round the aircraft in a most alarming way. As a PPL brought up on CB horror stories by gleeful instructors I was almost at the point of getting out of my seat and banging on the door shouting 'are you mad'. The aircraft swung onto the runway and began its takeoff run. By the time we rotated the sun was shining. In a cristal blue sky, an early right turn as we passed out over the Med revealed an awesome sight from wence we had come. Something like an atom bomb having exploded over the city. CBs are dangerous but if you know what you are doing...
Last edited by Dont Hang Up; 17th Jun 2008 at 12:32. Reason: grammatical correction
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CBs are dangerous but if you know what you are doing...
What's the difference between someone who is unaware of the danger of a thunderstorm who is killed by a thunderstorm, and someone who dies after knowingly flying through, under, or in the vicinity of a thunderstorm?
Really not much. It takes the same amount of space to bury them.
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Damn
Let's don't get started. Would one abort past V1? Would one fly in or near a TS? Guppy has the last word for my money. My friend Jeannie died at DFW in an L-1011 in the wind shear of a bottoming cell. AS on short final went from 200+ knots to 20 in a heartbeat. That crew were quite bright.
Airfoil
Airfoil
Last edited by airfoilmod; 17th Jun 2008 at 19:20.
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Paul Soderlind Papers
IGh - What's the chance of obtaining copies of Paul Soderlind's three papers you referenced? I've been researching Flt 705 crash for personal reasons and have been having a dickens of a time online and in-library finding those original documents?
Thanks in advance for your assistance.
Thanks in advance for your assistance.
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Paul Soderlind's FSB's
IGh -
Thanks for the quick and full reply. I'm really interested in the 'copies of the copies' of the FSB's. I missed touching base with Paul by two years (God bless his soul) after I researched his extensive followup to the crash of 720B NWA Flt 705 on Feb. 12, 1963. Paul left us in 2000 and NWA disappeared into Delta starting in 2009. I've been down many roads trying to find those FSB's and I keep coming up with dead ends until I read your post. I'll reimburse you for copy and mailing costs and your trouble most gladly !
Not on Alki today - just came in from weeding as it's starting to get above 80 deg. f., which is hot for the Pacific Northwest.
Robert Serling's Loud and Clear talked a great deal about the accident, Paul's work, and the United Flt 746 incursion into high altitude stall five months to the day later than Flt 705's crash (FDR readouts from both incidents were almost identical -United 746 had the advantage of altitude and a cockpit crew that, with the additional time/altitude available, was able to eventually pull out and land with no injuries or damage).
Not sure how I can get my address and reimbursement to you. Any suggestions?
Thanks again.
Thanks for the quick and full reply. I'm really interested in the 'copies of the copies' of the FSB's. I missed touching base with Paul by two years (God bless his soul) after I researched his extensive followup to the crash of 720B NWA Flt 705 on Feb. 12, 1963. Paul left us in 2000 and NWA disappeared into Delta starting in 2009. I've been down many roads trying to find those FSB's and I keep coming up with dead ends until I read your post. I'll reimburse you for copy and mailing costs and your trouble most gladly !
Not on Alki today - just came in from weeding as it's starting to get above 80 deg. f., which is hot for the Pacific Northwest.
Robert Serling's Loud and Clear talked a great deal about the accident, Paul's work, and the United Flt 746 incursion into high altitude stall five months to the day later than Flt 705's crash (FDR readouts from both incidents were almost identical -United 746 had the advantage of altitude and a cockpit crew that, with the additional time/altitude available, was able to eventually pull out and land with no injuries or damage).
Not sure how I can get my address and reimbursement to you. Any suggestions?
Thanks again.
In a cristal blue sky, an early right turn as we passed out over the Med revealed an awesome sight from wence we had come. Something like an atom bomb having exploded over the city. CBs are dangerous but if you know what you are doing...
If you the a/c was in the cell as you say when you lined up, yet clear of it when you were airborne, then they had to pass through any gust fronts that it produced, considering that
it went very dark except for the frequent flashes of lightning. Dust was swirling round the aircraft in a most alarming way.
I'd be interested to hear your collective wisdom on my experiences.
First, the most frightening experience of my 32 year flying career was when I got into an "embedded" CB in a Canberra (IMC, no wx radar, flying about 15,000ft due pressurisation problem). So I KNEW about "Don't go into CBs".
Then, some years later flying a Nimrod north to Akrotiri from Nairobi (that should give the game away!) it was necessary to cross the ITCZ. Nimrod not a great high-flyer, so couldn't go over. ITCZ is there for months, so can't wait on ground (Queen unwilling to pay for extended holiday). Seemed to me we HAD to risk entering CB in that situation. Thanks to an excellent radar and excellent operator we weaved our way through some very dramatic flashing clouds. But we could have got into a cul-de-sac.
But what do those who say "never go into a CB" say about this situation?
First, the most frightening experience of my 32 year flying career was when I got into an "embedded" CB in a Canberra (IMC, no wx radar, flying about 15,000ft due pressurisation problem). So I KNEW about "Don't go into CBs".
Then, some years later flying a Nimrod north to Akrotiri from Nairobi (that should give the game away!) it was necessary to cross the ITCZ. Nimrod not a great high-flyer, so couldn't go over. ITCZ is there for months, so can't wait on ground (Queen unwilling to pay for extended holiday). Seemed to me we HAD to risk entering CB in that situation. Thanks to an excellent radar and excellent operator we weaved our way through some very dramatic flashing clouds. But we could have got into a cul-de-sac.
But what do those who say "never go into a CB" say about this situation?
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But what do those who say "never go into a CB" say about this situation?
To me it is the same as saying 'we had to fly blind in IMC through a valley of mountains below MSA because the other option was to cancel the flight'.
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If you fly for a living you will sometimes do so in conditions you would not voluntarily accept. Turbulence, ice, crosswinds, short runways etc are not the norm but hopefully your experience level will allow you to cope.
For example crossing the South China Sea in an airplane that can only make about 13,000 feet and you penetrate a line of the ITCZ that shakes you up so bad you say "never again" only to find another line past that one. You figure it will not be worse than the one you just came through, but it is. And another line past that.
Better that you know how to do it than deny the possibility. Sometimes you do not have a choice, apart from several options that are all bad.
"Never fly in a CB" is a statement made by someone who has not been there yet, but eventually will.
For example crossing the South China Sea in an airplane that can only make about 13,000 feet and you penetrate a line of the ITCZ that shakes you up so bad you say "never again" only to find another line past that one. You figure it will not be worse than the one you just came through, but it is. And another line past that.
Better that you know how to do it than deny the possibility. Sometimes you do not have a choice, apart from several options that are all bad.
"Never fly in a CB" is a statement made by someone who has not been there yet, but eventually will.
Keithl, I interpret the problem as wishing to cross a line of storms (ITCZ).
There will be situations where the overall weather and storm pattern is such that you should never contemplate a crossing; this requires the best information before departure and en-route.
However, situations are never that ideal, thus there is need for considerable in-flight assessment; use of the best aids, WXR, ask others, etc. This also applies to conditions where in might be justifiable to consider a crossing.
Thus this is a judgement issue, the skill of which should improve with experience in the vicinity of such conditions, knowledge of the hazards (risks), and any other constraining factors, e.g. fuel.
Passengers are irrelevant – my safety (the required management of risk) is invariant to either pax or cargo load.
Perhaps the answer is to never knowingly enter or deliberately plan to enter a Cb when there is another option – an appropriate baseline bias. Always have another option, undo, back, Ctrl Z.
One view of expertise is being able to ask the right question (because the answer is then obvious). In this instance the first question crews should ask is “should we be crossing this line of storms”, and only with a well reasoned yes answer consider how the crossing could be done safely, minimising risk.
My experience north of Nairobi, faced with an ‘enormous’ storm (I had never seen such a large cell either before or since), was to deviate off track by 100nm. After landing I was invited by E African control to explain my deviation, and (to them) the unannounced flight path – the hazards of communication in such conditions, but this action was judged much safer for everyone than contemplating flying any nearer to the cell.
There will be situations where the overall weather and storm pattern is such that you should never contemplate a crossing; this requires the best information before departure and en-route.
However, situations are never that ideal, thus there is need for considerable in-flight assessment; use of the best aids, WXR, ask others, etc. This also applies to conditions where in might be justifiable to consider a crossing.
Thus this is a judgement issue, the skill of which should improve with experience in the vicinity of such conditions, knowledge of the hazards (risks), and any other constraining factors, e.g. fuel.
Passengers are irrelevant – my safety (the required management of risk) is invariant to either pax or cargo load.
Perhaps the answer is to never knowingly enter or deliberately plan to enter a Cb when there is another option – an appropriate baseline bias. Always have another option, undo, back, Ctrl Z.
One view of expertise is being able to ask the right question (because the answer is then obvious). In this instance the first question crews should ask is “should we be crossing this line of storms”, and only with a well reasoned yes answer consider how the crossing could be done safely, minimising risk.
My experience north of Nairobi, faced with an ‘enormous’ storm (I had never seen such a large cell either before or since), was to deviate off track by 100nm. After landing I was invited by E African control to explain my deviation, and (to them) the unannounced flight path – the hazards of communication in such conditions, but this action was judged much safer for everyone than contemplating flying any nearer to the cell.
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If you need proof..
.. as previously suggested, Gann's "Fate is the Hunter" is a must-read..Night-time DC2 heavily laden with ice... long periods among the mountains and valleys at max power yet still teetering at the stall... diversions and alternate closed out by wx and getting mighty low on fuel.
We (hopefully) learn plenty from ATPL ground-studies.. but Gann was a wonderful wordsmith.. and his various encounters with CBs are printed in my soul. RIP EKG
We (hopefully) learn plenty from ATPL ground-studies.. but Gann was a wonderful wordsmith.. and his various encounters with CBs are printed in my soul. RIP EKG
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Hello guys, first post.
I have found this topic very interesting, and just to add an opinion, I do have all the respect for Cb, and its also true that sometimes flying you just bump into them...
I work for an airline in Colombia, and let me tell you that Wx down here isnt that good, lots of Cb and rain almost everywhere, and a factor determining here is the high terrain, sometimes you have to go through at least the green echoes on the radar, the problem I found once was that the green echoe turned into a solid red from no where
.
Anyway I agree fully with the dont fly through them
concept, or as a flight instructor told me in the simulator, keep the skies blue.
Take care guys,
Daniel Ospina Trujillo
Bogota, Colombia
I have found this topic very interesting, and just to add an opinion, I do have all the respect for Cb, and its also true that sometimes flying you just bump into them...
I work for an airline in Colombia, and let me tell you that Wx down here isnt that good, lots of Cb and rain almost everywhere, and a factor determining here is the high terrain, sometimes you have to go through at least the green echoes on the radar, the problem I found once was that the green echoe turned into a solid red from no where
.Anyway I agree fully with the dont fly through them
concept, or as a flight instructor told me in the simulator, keep the skies blue.Take care guys,
Daniel Ospina Trujillo
Bogota, Colombia
Beau_Peep
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so you may enter green thinking it is safe, only to be surprised!!nature has not given us wings to fly.. men attempted to fly against nature's wish.. though we succeeded.. but nature has its own way to avenge...
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Re: the Easyjet photo's on page one of the thread .. I have some rather more unpleasant ones of a Windjet A 320 at Catania taken in 2009, radome gone and the antenna trashed ... they were flying very blind, and probably very scared.
I have seen some impressive weather, particularly over my native Alps in the summer: on one occasion I tried to pick my way through and had a most unpleasant experience, we were out of the high overcast, plotting the tops visually and trying to filter the cells from the ground returns by vertical scanning .. then there was this moment when we looked up and saw a very large shadow way way above us.. all looked fine on the radar but oh dear ... never again .. and we THOUGHT we were ok.
So next time we saw the same conditions kicking off ... lots more fuel, and a plan around the area .. it added another 30 minutes flight time, then we heard the calls from the direct routers and knew we were in a better place.
PLAN to stay clear, delay, talk to ops, take more fuel, re route, hold, whatever, but do not take on conditions that you cannot possibly reasonably predict. If you do, and are lucky.. you will only scare yourself, if you are not .... ?
I have seen some impressive weather, particularly over my native Alps in the summer: on one occasion I tried to pick my way through and had a most unpleasant experience, we were out of the high overcast, plotting the tops visually and trying to filter the cells from the ground returns by vertical scanning .. then there was this moment when we looked up and saw a very large shadow way way above us.. all looked fine on the radar but oh dear ... never again .. and we THOUGHT we were ok.
So next time we saw the same conditions kicking off ... lots more fuel, and a plan around the area .. it added another 30 minutes flight time, then we heard the calls from the direct routers and knew we were in a better place.
PLAN to stay clear, delay, talk to ops, take more fuel, re route, hold, whatever, but do not take on conditions that you cannot possibly reasonably predict. If you do, and are lucky.. you will only scare yourself, if you are not .... ?
