Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Tech Log
Reload this Page >

Flying the MU2 - facts please.

Tech Log The very best in practical technical discussion on the web

Flying the MU2 - facts please.

Old 9th Feb 2010, 19:48
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: fairly close to the colonial capitol
Age: 51
Posts: 1,687
NTSB is on record as stating that the majority of MU-2 fatal accidents were as a result of pilot error.
The NTSB has this huge placard on the wall. It reads:
When in doubt, blame the pilot(s).
vapilot2004 is offline  
Old 9th Feb 2010, 19:55
  #62 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Near LOACH intersection
Posts: 497
if the shoe fits---------------
ferrydude is offline  
Old 9th Feb 2010, 20:04
  #63 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: fairly close to the colonial capitol
Age: 51
Posts: 1,687
...and if it doesn't, they have industrial-sized shoe horns and a tub of lard.
vapilot2004 is offline  
Old 9th Feb 2010, 20:54
  #64 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Where the Quaboag River flows, USA
Age: 66
Posts: 3,332
Well, right there's your problem, the landing gear is off the F-104! No wonder they crash so much, it's in the DNA.

GF

Old joke: an optimist is a Luftwaffe '104 pilot who quit smoking!
galaxy flyer is offline  
Old 11th Feb 2010, 08:02
  #65 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UTC +8
Posts: 2,614
Ag2A320 . . .

[QUOTE]we were required to review all the accidents back to 1967,/QUOTE]

I'm not a Mitsu jock, but that's the best piece of advice I've read in a long time. It should be included in initial training for all type ratings.
GlueBall is offline  
Old 14th Feb 2010, 16:07
  #66 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: I wish I knew
Posts: 611
They don't call this piece of XXXX the "Widow Maker" for nothing, Having spent 2 years flying this thing in the past, I would advise your mate to sell it, or set fire to it.
Avenger is offline  
Old 14th Feb 2010, 17:47
  #67 (permalink)  

Aviator Extraordinaire
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
Age: 72
Posts: 2,394
or set fire to it.
We seized a MU-2 when I was with the Marshal Service and place it in service. After a campaign by myself and two other pilots that had flown MU-2s to get rid of the damn thing before it crashed it was returned to the GSA.

For some reason, only known to them, the US Navy picked up the MU-2. The MU-2 was based at Edwards AFB. Sure enough about two months it did crash*. Very fortunately all on board escaped with minor injury. Then guess what happened to the MU-2?

They made a target out of it and sure enough it did end up being destroyed by fire.




* The Navy never told us what caused the accident.
con-pilot is offline  
Old 14th Feb 2010, 20:11
  #68 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: melbourne australia
Posts: 77
does the MU2 have a higher wing loading than other similar planes?
lynn789 is offline  
Old 14th Feb 2010, 20:22
  #69 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Where the Quaboag River flows, USA
Age: 66
Posts: 3,332
Not compared to a bumble bee!! There are no similar other planes, which is the problem.

GF
galaxy flyer is offline  
Old 14th Feb 2010, 22:44
  #70 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Greece
Posts: 31
"pilot error" yes I think it was error to get in thing in first place, forget it and have big lunch break.
Stratobus is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2010, 02:19
  #71 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 459
I lost a friend many years ago in a 'G' model of the Mu2. The radar trace had it climbing normally out of Sydney until it reached 17,000ft and then not one track mile to the point of loss of radar return. To go straight down like that is unusual and ice seems to be one theory. I have never heard the reason or even if they found one. I know nothing about the aeroplane, having never flown one, but when I see one I always wonder if the 'orrible little thing has a dark secret somewhere. 'Tojo's Revenge' is what they call them in Aus.
By George is offline  
Old 21st Feb 2010, 21:21
  #72 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Wilmington
Age: 43
Posts: 133
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, yes. But "The NTSB wanted its Airworthiness revoked" isn't an opinion, and I can't find anything to suggest that it's true. 1400 hours PIC in the Mitsi, about 800 in the KA, and I'll take the Mitsi every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Just an opinion. Here's another one: If flying a well maintained MU-2 scares you, become a gardener.

PS. Yes, the wing loading is higher than comparable aircraft, although not outrageously so. I believe it's in the neighborhood of that on a KA350. Easily the best airplane I've flown in ice, including the KA series.
TRF4EVR is offline  
Old 22nd Feb 2010, 01:06
  #73 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: fairly close to the colonial capitol
Age: 51
Posts: 1,687
For some reason, only known to them, the US Navy picked up the MU-2. The MU-2 was based at Edwards AFB. Sure enough about two months it did crash*. Very fortunately all on board escaped with minor injury. Then guess what happened to the MU-2?

They made a target out of it and sure enough it did end up being destroyed by fire.

* The Navy never told us what caused the accident.
The official report from the military AIB is off-limits and the NTSB report was sealed, but I can tell you this Con:

The aircraft was among 3 used by a private company but flown by military pilots. The private operators failed to properly placard a flaky DME which led the PIC upon discovery of his incorrectly reported position on approach at Edwards to make a turn, placing him in the path of a fighter, I believe it was an F-16. The wake turbulence caused them to lose control of the aircraft and crash.

The USN PIC died and an Airman, while several other people were injured, but survived. This accident occurred in the early 1990's.

Last edited by vapilot2004; 22nd Feb 2010 at 04:28.
vapilot2004 is offline  
Old 22nd Feb 2010, 16:42
  #74 (permalink)  

Aviator Extraordinaire
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
Age: 72
Posts: 2,394
The USN PIC died and an Airman, while several other people were injured, but survived. This accident occurred in the early 1990's.
Okay, that would be the correct time period. We were told that no one was seriously injured. However, by the time the information reached us it was third hand at best.

Thank you.
con-pilot is offline  
Old 22nd Feb 2010, 21:52
  #75 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: fairly close to the colonial capitol
Age: 51
Posts: 1,687
You are welcome sir.

Okay, that would be the correct time period. We were told that no one was seriously injured. However, by the time the information reached us it was third hand at best.
Perhaps they meant no civilian was seriously injured. The whole affair was pretty hush hush.

Aside from training issues, is the key to the MU-2's checkered past the ultra-high wing loading?
vapilot2004 is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2010, 05:06
  #76 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Wilmington
Age: 43
Posts: 133
High wing loading is part of it. It's also largely because the things are so cheap for the capability. Not sure what the rules are in Yurop, but over here if the plane is under 12.5, a private pilot with a multi rating can get out of a seminole and fly off in an MU-2. Not the best idea.

Other factors: It uses spoilers for roll control rather than ailerons, which necessitates different engine out procedures. The gear is draggy during retraction, especially on the long bodies. The plane uses extremely effective full span flaps to make up for the high wing loading...an engine going out at low altitude and low speed with flaps 40, for example, means you'd better land straight ahead or you're rolling over and going in.

When the aircraft was put out of production, it was rapidly apprehended by low-cost cargo ops that it was a steal in terms of speed and price. At that point you have low time pilots in challenging conditions in a plane that flies a lot like a light jet who have probably upgraded from a Baron or similar and did all their training "in-house". If the guys doing the training know their stuff, that's not necessarily a bad thing, but if they don't...trouble.

All that said, the thing is built like a brick outhouse, flies like a dream (if a little heavy in the roll), can land on a dime, and is ridiculously efficient vs. the (slower) competition. Properly respected, it's not just a good airplane, it's an excellent one. MHO, etc. Again, having flown a comparable KA model, I'd much, much rather be in a Mitsi. The best advice I ever got from my crusty old highly experienced boss was "Don't go below 120 until you've got the field made and get to 120 just as fast as you possibly can on T/O". Follow that and it's a pussycat.

PS. If ag2a320 is still reading four years on, a lot of those tail numbers look real familiar. I flew the Mitsi for the successor to George's old outfit. I heard some extremely entertaining stories about George. Quite the character, by all accounts.

Last edited by TRF4EVR; 26th Feb 2010 at 07:10.
TRF4EVR is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2010, 00:41
  #77 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: fairly close to the colonial capitol
Age: 51
Posts: 1,687
Thanks for that Mr. TRF4EVR.

You seem to have a good understanding of the -2 and your calling for better training goes right along with what CP was saying.

I've spent a nearly two decades on the Super King Air and I have found it to be a sturdy, reliable turboprop with good manners and graceful degradation when things start going wobbly - not unlike my current jet type.

The MU-2 is in the same ballpark performance-wise as a B100, with improvements in climb, service ceiling and cruise, yet does it on 35% less wing area. Some magic exists there!
vapilot2004 is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2010, 03:11
  #78 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Miami
Posts: 29
TRF4EVER,

Still here, have the same P model George sold us, did you fly with Beau and have Chuck B as Chief Pilot ?.

Chuck seemed to have all the more interesting flights, he was co-pilot on the J model N770MA that tossed a blade near Corsicana, TX .Lucky for them the vibration set up from the 18" of blade loss broke the FCU from the mounts and shut the engine down within microseconds of the blade letting go.

George would always point to the Large hangar complex he built on the northside of TUL and say that MU-2 S/n 9 on a the pole near Sparks Aviation, tried to kill him so many times he had it mounted, the engineering into the mount cost him $36,000 in 1977 dollars alone.

He'd have a few and swear he was gonna cut it down the next time somebody for the "farside" of the ramp as he called it, "Hi George" him. He built all of that complex off US Military contract fuel sales and loss it all in the Oklahoma Oil bust of the Mid 80's.

He freely admitted losing 22 million dollars of his money in the bust, and added " i can't even tell you how much of my wife's money i lost". ( I believe she was a heir to one of the wealthy Tulsa Oil clans. He started working for her father flying the Co's B-26, Lodestar & Howard 500)

He was a character and a half, i'm sure you heard the one about a certain F/O Stinky and his visit to Matarmoros, MX or the brawl over the 4 crew cars at DFW and OKC.

Last edited by Ag2A320; 1st Mar 2010 at 05:03.
Ag2A320 is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2010, 03:29
  #79 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Wilmington
Age: 43
Posts: 133
Glad to be of assistance. Good training is definitely a must-have for the Mitsi, but it's not (IMHO) the death-trap people make it out to be. I trained with a guy who had under 2000 hours and came out of an Aztec and he's still flying them single pilot a few years later...hasn't even scratched the paint (granted he was a freight dog prior, and had the necessary weather/decision making/PIC skills).

I will quibble with you about the relative performance of a B100...I don't know what the books say, but in my experience, even a ratted out old J or L model will crawl past a 100, and a dirty, cargo-hatched Marquise will blow the doors off of one. A cargo Marquise vs. a clean, late model, exec type B200 is a toss-up, with maybe a slight edge to the Mitsi if the engines aren't due for overhaul (which they probably are).

To be fair, my experience with the KA series was for a company which (through no fault of their own) had to contract the maintenance out (due to distance from HQ), and that maintenance may have been lacking. Whereas the company I flew the Mitsi for is owned by the same gentleman who owns one of the very few remaining world-class Mitsi specialist shops (edit: The Tusla based company mentioned in the article linked below), so I always knew that the guys turning the wrenches were experts on the aircraft...this likely changed my experiences to a significant degree.

Here's a highly favorable article (on the Mitsubishi's site, surprise), but it gels with my experience:

http://www.mu-2aircraft.com/upload/news/MU2News_73.pdf

But this article is pretty much the final word, AFAIC, gives both sides, such as they are.

Mitsubishi MU-2 Part 2 (What''s Wrong With the MU-2?) - Windows Live

PS. I will argue that not ALL check haulers have bad training...I learned from a guy I'd rather fly with in a kite than most pilots in an armor plated King Air.

This isn't to say that those who don't like the plane are incapable or stupid...con-pilot has a lot more time than I do. I suspect that his experiences were a product of a certain time, place, and standard of maintenance, but there are two sides to every story...Take it for what it's worth, etc etc.
TRF4EVR is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2010, 03:42
  #80 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Wilmington
Age: 43
Posts: 133
Still here, have the same P model George sold us, did you fly with Beau and have Chuck B as Chief Pilot ?.
I just missed Beau on the way out...I got hired just about the time he went West to fly 350s...but he was the guy I pestered for information on the company. Great guy, by all accounts, met him briefly during initial training. And yes, Chuck B. was the CP when I was there...what a great guy. I always thought I smoked a lot until I went on break time with Chuck...

Chuck seemed to have all the more interesting flights, he was co-pilot on the J model N770MA that tossed a blade near Corsicana, TX .Lucky for them the vibration set up from the 18" of blade loss broke the FCU from the mounts and shut the engine down within microseconds of the blade letting go.
Haha. Yeah that was one of many stories he told us that had me wondering what I'd gotten myself in to. Luckily, I never had any "great stories" to tell like he did. If the Zombie Apocalypse ever strikes, I'm staying the heck away from Tulsa, because that guy is unkillable.

George would always point to the Large hangar complex he built on the northside of TUL and say that MU-2 on a the pole near Sparks Aviation, tried to kill him so many times he had it mounted, the engineering into the mount cost him $36,000 in 1977 dollars alone.

He have a few and swear he was gonna cut it down the next time somebody for the "farside" of the ramp as he called it. "Hi George'd" him. He built all of that complex off US Military contract fuel sales and loss it all in the Oklahoma Oil bust of the Mid 80's.

He freely admitted losing 22 million dollars of his money in the bust, and added " i can't even tell you how much of my wife's money i lost". ( I believe she was a heir to one of the wealthy Tulsa Oil clans. He started working for her father flying the Co's B-26, Lodestar & Howard 500)

He was a character and a half, i'm sure you heard the one about a certain F/O Stinky and his visit to Matarmoros, MX or the brawl over the 4 crew cars at DFW and OKC.
Heh, no I think I missed that one, but I heard plenty of others. Something about a Mitsi going through a thunderstorm and getting a few lights busted out, taxiing in, and being pulled in to a hangar so he could bust out all of the rest of the lights with his cane because he had all the spares and knew the insurance company would be buying them from him. Of course that's all second hand... Sounds like great times, sorry I missed them (but I'll bet I've saved money on new underwear). They don't make em like that anymore! Thanks for chiming in and if you have any stories not fit for public consumption, feel free to PM
TRF4EVR is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.