If your captain is going to botch the landing....
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If your captain is going to botch the landing....
Hi all,
I'm curious about something:
If ever one day, the Captain on your flight is flying the sector and you are in the right hand seat (whether as an SFO, FO or SO), when its about 100' and below during the approach, and the Captain is glaringly and obviously going to botch the landing (be it high rate of descent or lack of proper flare etc) and does not seem to be doing anything about it within those few seconds...
What are you going to do?
Regards,
Kelvin
I'm curious about something:
If ever one day, the Captain on your flight is flying the sector and you are in the right hand seat (whether as an SFO, FO or SO), when its about 100' and below during the approach, and the Captain is glaringly and obviously going to botch the landing (be it high rate of descent or lack of proper flare etc) and does not seem to be doing anything about it within those few seconds...
What are you going to do?
Regards,
Kelvin
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Cpt
.....ok ok Cpt I give up !!!!! But now pleeeeease let's land ....................
Well , there are many reasons to arrive to this point , but like SOP says, after two verbal advice without any answer we Must take control.
As my personal experience , during a non precisions app. at minima , imc , i don 't know why , the cpt does not stop the descend nor initiate a G/A , so i took controls and executed a miss/app.
Bye
Well , there are many reasons to arrive to this point , but like SOP says, after two verbal advice without any answer we Must take control.
As my personal experience , during a non precisions app. at minima , imc , i don 't know why , the cpt does not stop the descend nor initiate a G/A , so i took controls and executed a miss/app.
Bye
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Originally Posted by Nick 1
.....ok ok Cpt I give up !!!!! But now pleeeeease let's land ....................
Well , there are many reasons to arrive to this point , but like SOP says, after two verbal advice without any answer we Must take control.
As my personal experience , during a non precisions app. at minima , imc , i don 't know why , the cpt does not stop the descend nor initiate a G/A , so i took controls and executed a miss/app.
Bye
Well , there are many reasons to arrive to this point , but like SOP says, after two verbal advice without any answer we Must take control.
As my personal experience , during a non precisions app. at minima , imc , i don 't know why , the cpt does not stop the descend nor initiate a G/A , so i took controls and executed a miss/app.
Bye
I guess I'll do that too if I am in that situation.
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The answer is "Go-around". However an excessive ROD is difficult to achieve in the last 100', unless somebody has a death wish, when you have the right to takeover and execute a missed approach. But may I suggest that long before you get less than 100 AGL, the ROD would already have been excessive in which case you would have been making the appropriate calls. If no response to these calls, action as above. As for a lack of flare - do you really want to fight over the controls at zot feet? Neither you nor the pax are unlikely to be injured if you do nothing and a heavy landing may result. So what? The important thing is not to make the situation worse. Once on the ground, ring your company and/or union for advice.
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Go Around
The sad part of the story about my post , is that the Cpt for the rest of the sectors completely ignore me , standard calls apart , and also in the next days of flying with him he act in the same way....................
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, and the Captain is glaringly and obviously going to botch the landing
What are you going to do?
Basically do whatever is required to avoid any or all of the above, but whatever you do, if the situation justifies - DON'T DO NOTHING!!!!!!!!
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With a high R o D or no flare, there is VERY little you can do without making things far worse.
Do as advised by 'P M' and keep your tongue clear of your teeth
Do as advised by 'P M' and keep your tongue clear of your teeth
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As a current operating Captain, my answer is this:
Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease don't let me continue to do whatever stupid thing I have got head wrapped around!
Follow your SOP, and do exactly what it says. Now that I've said that, I also believe in that (SOP) so the likelyhood of this happening on my flight is slim.
But, if it did, that is how I would want YOU to react!
Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease don't let me continue to do whatever stupid thing I have got head wrapped around!
Follow your SOP, and do exactly what it says. Now that I've said that, I also believe in that (SOP) so the likelyhood of this happening on my flight is slim.
But, if it did, that is how I would want YOU to react!
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Hmm..haha, some humorous and informative replies!
Guess if I ever get into such a situation, I should try my best to correct it before I end up in another situation that I wished I wasn't in!
Sometimes its tough to overrule the captain but I think I should always keep in mind that I have SOP's to keep by and that in the event something is not right, I have the right, as the co-pilot, to do something about it. I just hope that the Captain will be an understanding person...:P
Guess if I ever get into such a situation, I should try my best to correct it before I end up in another situation that I wished I wasn't in!
Sometimes its tough to overrule the captain but I think I should always keep in mind that I have SOP's to keep by and that in the event something is not right, I have the right, as the co-pilot, to do something about it. I just hope that the Captain will be an understanding person...:P
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If you're already down to 100 feet or so, the chances are that whatever you do to intervene will not prevent the aircraft from touching down - and probably still very heavily. The difference will be that YOU will have been handling the controls at the time, not the Captain. Guess who then gets the blame in a "your word against his" scenario, where he will claim that he was in the process of rectifying the situation and you made it worse. Maybe the CVR replay will put you in the clear, but maybe not...
This will ultimately depend on the type of aeroplane, it's weight and responsiveness to positive GA control. As has already been said, a high ROD is unlikely to develop below 100-200 feet so you will have been calling anything that is non-SOP well before that point. Thus, hopefully, you won't be having to try to rescue the situation when you're already down among the weeds.
As for lack of proper flare, that's a tough one because any intervention by you could well make the situation worse. Best advice has probably already been given to you... grit the teeth and keep your tongue away from them!
This will ultimately depend on the type of aeroplane, it's weight and responsiveness to positive GA control. As has already been said, a high ROD is unlikely to develop below 100-200 feet so you will have been calling anything that is non-SOP well before that point. Thus, hopefully, you won't be having to try to rescue the situation when you're already down among the weeds.
As for lack of proper flare, that's a tough one because any intervention by you could well make the situation worse. Best advice has probably already been given to you... grit the teeth and keep your tongue away from them!
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As we fly Capt/Capt a lot, when I am in the RHS and he or she looks like they are going to pork it, a sound slap across the temple usually works, either before or after impact 
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I think that the key words were within the first post - "and does not seem to be doing anything about it"
This is symptomatic of subtle incapacitation. Assume subtle incapacitation, take control, and go around.
Regards,
Old Smokey
This is symptomatic of subtle incapacitation. Assume subtle incapacitation, take control, and go around.
Regards,
Old Smokey
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old dilemma!
Great question K set! A classic!
SOP is probably the only answer, the two verbal advice and so on..
Would 100ft be enough? I can't think of dozens of episodes and grey situations, different characters, cockpit gradient and many others factors.......that's probably why most of us are still looking for a proper answer!
My answer is do something sensible!...You can always talk about it in the bar!
I read something about an experiment setting up different crews in a similar situation, maybe usaf c130S? not sure, apparently in most of the cases they crashed.
Cheers
SOP is probably the only answer, the two verbal advice and so on..
Would 100ft be enough? I can't think of dozens of episodes and grey situations, different characters, cockpit gradient and many others factors.......that's probably why most of us are still looking for a proper answer!
My answer is do something sensible!...You can always talk about it in the bar!
I read something about an experiment setting up different crews in a similar situation, maybe usaf c130S? not sure, apparently in most of the cases they crashed.
Cheers
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Yup I believe everyone would have this question flash through their minds at some point or the other during a flight! I'm glad to hear views from all ranks and experiences! Thank you so much for the guidance!
I'm glad to hear views from all ranks and experiences! Thank you so much for the guidance!