Use of 121.5mhz (Merged)
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Originally Posted by DFC
I have absolutely no doubt that the navigation training in the UK suffers because of the mentality that 121.5 is there to sort it out. The evidence is the high number of airspace infringements compared to other places and the fact that 121.5 detailed fixing on your lovely OS street maps displays is deemed nesessary in the vicinity of the London TMA.....because of the danger of infringements!
Please provide numbers and references.
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Please feel free to read the CAA's regular incident report publications.
You can then check with various other countries safety data units to get the numbers.
To look at it from a practical point of view - NATS has to pay to keep the 121.50 autotriangulation service operated by D+D and one of the reasons for it's use is the high number of airspace infringements in the SE region (this is where the coverage is the best). This charge is passed on in route charges.
No other country requires ATS providers to spend that money becuse they have the same level of safety without it. Yes they have DF and other facilities to assist pilots in emergency. But ask any other authority if there is a need to provide any extra service for pilots who reguluarly get lost and the answer will be no.
Ask any other country if given the choice, would they provide better VDF autotriangulation coverage over flat well populated areas with numerous landing sites and lots of ATS units with good R/T and radar coverage or over sparsely populated areas where the terrain is difficult, the radar coverage is poor and search + rescue difficult.
Again I ask - if other countries can cope very well without it, and other countries do not have the same number of lost pilots, what is lacking in the UK that makes it necessary?
I believe that the availability of autotriangulation is an asset for flights in a state of emergency (mayday) or urgency (pan). I also believe that with nothing else to do, D+D should note any callsigns of non-emergency transmissions on 121.5 and report them to the CAA for further action.
Why spend money on a VOR/DME or even a GPS when one can call 121.50 every so often and let them do the work of fixing your position? After all, they welcome the practice don't they?
Regards,
DFC
You can then check with various other countries safety data units to get the numbers.
To look at it from a practical point of view - NATS has to pay to keep the 121.50 autotriangulation service operated by D+D and one of the reasons for it's use is the high number of airspace infringements in the SE region (this is where the coverage is the best). This charge is passed on in route charges.
No other country requires ATS providers to spend that money becuse they have the same level of safety without it. Yes they have DF and other facilities to assist pilots in emergency. But ask any other authority if there is a need to provide any extra service for pilots who reguluarly get lost and the answer will be no.
Ask any other country if given the choice, would they provide better VDF autotriangulation coverage over flat well populated areas with numerous landing sites and lots of ATS units with good R/T and radar coverage or over sparsely populated areas where the terrain is difficult, the radar coverage is poor and search + rescue difficult.
Again I ask - if other countries can cope very well without it, and other countries do not have the same number of lost pilots, what is lacking in the UK that makes it necessary?
I believe that the availability of autotriangulation is an asset for flights in a state of emergency (mayday) or urgency (pan). I also believe that with nothing else to do, D+D should note any callsigns of non-emergency transmissions on 121.5 and report them to the CAA for further action.
Why spend money on a VOR/DME or even a GPS when one can call 121.50 every so often and let them do the work of fixing your position? After all, they welcome the practice don't they?
Regards,
DFC
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Originally Posted by DFC
To look at it from a practical point of view - NATS has to pay to keep the 121.50 autotriangulation service operated by D+D and one of the reasons for it's use is the high number of airspace infringements in the SE region (this is where the coverage is the best). This charge is passed on in route charges.
No other country requires ATS providers to spend that money becuse they have the same level of safety without it. Yes they have DF and other facilities to assist pilots in emergency. But ask any other authority if there is a need to provide any extra service for pilots who reguluarly get lost and the answer will be no.DFC
No other country requires ATS providers to spend that money becuse they have the same level of safety without it. Yes they have DF and other facilities to assist pilots in emergency. But ask any other authority if there is a need to provide any extra service for pilots who reguluarly get lost and the answer will be no.DFC
BD
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DFC
So you quote in one post the high number of infringements compared with other countries and when asked for figures you merely offer the reported ones in the UK & a "go look for yourselves" for the other countries stats.... Does that mean that you dont have those figures & have just assumed it is a UK problem only?
How do you know that other countries with a simlairly congested controlled airspace does not have as many lost pilots / airspace infringers?
As for logging unwarranted calls on 121.5............. Did you not see the FODCOM about this very topic stating that the huge majority of calls on 121.5 were by CAT? Well it was London Centre that complied that list at their request. Yes we can do it but we have far better things to do than be the "121.5 CAT Police"
VDF autotriangulation over the SE ot the UK. As mentioned earlier it does work outside its given limitations but it was designed that way because thats where most of the GA airfields are..... there arent too many airfields in the |Welsh mountains.
As for why have VORs when you can call D&D for a position fix.... do you not take any notice of what you read on this forum? It happens, sure but very rarely and again you are implying that GA abuse 121.5 routinely based on your evidence of what exactly?
I am now going to try and abstain from posting on this topic futher as I dont feel it is a problem for all CAT, indeed many other CAT pilots have said that whilst not ideal, they can live with it. It seems to be a particular problem for you & I dont see that you & I batting this back & forth serves any purpose at all. One last time , I would suggest perhaps you could channel your efforts along some other avenue to try to achieve what you want & get off the backs of those who use the system as mandated by the CAA.
Regards
Diddley Dee
So you quote in one post the high number of infringements compared with other countries and when asked for figures you merely offer the reported ones in the UK & a "go look for yourselves" for the other countries stats.... Does that mean that you dont have those figures & have just assumed it is a UK problem only?
How do you know that other countries with a simlairly congested controlled airspace does not have as many lost pilots / airspace infringers?
As for logging unwarranted calls on 121.5............. Did you not see the FODCOM about this very topic stating that the huge majority of calls on 121.5 were by CAT? Well it was London Centre that complied that list at their request. Yes we can do it but we have far better things to do than be the "121.5 CAT Police"
VDF autotriangulation over the SE ot the UK. As mentioned earlier it does work outside its given limitations but it was designed that way because thats where most of the GA airfields are..... there arent too many airfields in the |Welsh mountains.
As for why have VORs when you can call D&D for a position fix.... do you not take any notice of what you read on this forum? It happens, sure but very rarely and again you are implying that GA abuse 121.5 routinely based on your evidence of what exactly?
I am now going to try and abstain from posting on this topic futher as I dont feel it is a problem for all CAT, indeed many other CAT pilots have said that whilst not ideal, they can live with it. It seems to be a particular problem for you & I dont see that you & I batting this back & forth serves any purpose at all. One last time , I would suggest perhaps you could channel your efforts along some other avenue to try to achieve what you want & get off the backs of those who use the system as mandated by the CAA.
Regards
Diddley Dee
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Originally Posted by DFC
Please feel free to read the CAA's regular incident report publications.
You can then check with various other countries safety data units to get the numbers.
You can then check with various other countries safety data units to get the numbers.
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Certain European countries are only just waking up to the fact that they have a CAS infringement problem. What has happened in Europe, and until recently in the UK, is that incidents have just not been reported.
Without reports you do not have statistics and without statistics you do not have a problem. Europe does have a problem and they have turned to NATS (specifically the NATS Infringement Group) for assistance and guidance.
Without reports you do not have statistics and without statistics you do not have a problem. Europe does have a problem and they have turned to NATS (specifically the NATS Infringement Group) for assistance and guidance.
Avoid imitations
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So who was guilty of making any of the dozens of calls on 121.5 this evening - asking for football results? 
The D&D controllers asked at least twice for it to stop - but the calls continued - even after the controller said he was dealing with SAROPS!
The worst offender had a German accent. I have never heard such a stupid, and selfish lack of professionalism in 30 years of flying. Those involved ought to have their R/T licences taken away......
The D&D controllers asked at least twice for it to stop - but the calls continued - even after the controller said he was dealing with SAROPS!
The worst offender had a German accent. I have never heard such a stupid, and selfish lack of professionalism in 30 years of flying. Those involved ought to have their R/T licences taken away......
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It must have been all those GA pilots who the "professional" pilots so sneer at!!!!! (well at least according to many contributors to this thread). ST - I have taken to listening to 121.50 and find it abominable that so many CAT aircraft use it as a "chat" frequency. Will they be so selfish if they ever need it for a real emergency I wonder.
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I am not going to go into the details, but recently I needed to use 121.5. Quite apart from the original problem necessitating the call, I also developed a serious communication difficulty - I could hear them talking but it wasn't possible to hear what was being said. (And before some clever clogs decide that I must have had my radio turned down - I didn't) Eventually the radio problem lessened and I was able to hear an Emirates aircraft relaying messages to me. Communication with D&D was eventually restored too and my original problem sorted out. I am fortunate, I had had a visit to ScATCC a couple of years ago - well before I started learning to fly, but it was impressed on all there that we should always call sooner rather than later so I had no hesitation in calling when the need arose. For those of you tempted to turn your radios off 121.5 because you can't cope please think again. Without the help from that Emirates crew I would have had an even worse time of it.Thank you to all who helped me, I really do appreciate what you did.
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Originally Posted by Il Duce
I doubt anyone would have heard you on 121.5 amongst all the chatter about football results.
If, as I have been taught, 121.5 is for EMERGENCIES ONLY perhaps those who abuse it in this way should be subject to some sort of disciplinary action. Who knows how many people could be killed or injured in similar circumstances because an emergency call could not be made thanks to their selfishness. 
Murphy's Law means that they would never be the ones to need to use it under such circumstances.
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Abuse of 121.5
Overheard on 121.5, over France at approx 1800Z yesterday:
Short trivial conversation in English, followed by -
"You're on Guard"
"You f*** off"
"You too, a**hole"
Short pause
"Language, language"
"Idiots"
This is the worst abuse of 121.5 I've heard - or have I lived a sheltered life?
Short trivial conversation in English, followed by -
"You're on Guard"
"You f*** off"
"You too, a**hole"
Short pause
"Language, language"
"Idiots"
This is the worst abuse of 121.5 I've heard - or have I lived a sheltered life?
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Haven't heard that one (was "off" yesterday due being over the 15 day limit regs 
) but have to agree that the language evo on 21.5 is more and more a poor display of some troubled souls
Also private talks abound (Italy & France being the European champions), while Britain's specials is "rescuing" some poor lost SEP...
Sad state of affair indeed
) but have to agree that the language evo on 21.5 is more and more a poor display of some troubled souls Also private talks abound (Italy & France being the European champions), while Britain's specials is "rescuing" some poor lost SEP...
Sad state of affair indeed
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Absolutely. But I'm very reliably informed that there is a nice sound bite in D&D where they were handling an actual emergency (ie not a trg fix) whilst being berated by a DLH overflight who was bleating about "You f***ing Brits and your practice pans". In anybody's book that is unprofessional.
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I agree completely London Mil.
I personally think there is a place for "practice Pans" and "Training Fixes" as well. I assume sensible precautions are taken to make sure that no one else is in a real Pan/Mayday situation.
I was sailing over the weekend.. here the "guard" freq is also used to advice of wx warnings and other relevant "NOTAMS" or whatever they have!! I'd say there freq is more congested as a result than ours is because of practice pans.
I personally think there is a place for "practice Pans" and "Training Fixes" as well. I assume sensible precautions are taken to make sure that no one else is in a real Pan/Mayday situation.
I was sailing over the weekend.. here the "guard" freq is also used to advice of wx warnings and other relevant "NOTAMS" or whatever they have!! I'd say there freq is more congested as a result than ours is because of practice pans.
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I've never found practice PAN calls a problem when I'm listening out on 121.5- I do tend to turn box 2 off when I get back into busy airspace, so the risks of distraction are reduced. Usually, when I hear some other extraneous call on Guard, I think "Glad that wasn't me!" then get on with what I was doing.
Occasionally I will transmit "you're on guard"- but only when I have heard the same call twice, and it is obviously someone on the wrong box- even then I am only trying to spare them embarassment!
However, I have also heard some exchanges of swearing on Guard- given that autotriangulation is possible, is it time that the perpetrators are identified, and MOR action is taken? We all make mistakes on the RT, but deliberate abuse is quite another thing...
Occasionally I will transmit "you're on guard"- but only when I have heard the same call twice, and it is obviously someone on the wrong box- even then I am only trying to spare them embarassment!
However, I have also heard some exchanges of swearing on Guard- given that autotriangulation is possible, is it time that the perpetrators are identified, and MOR action is taken? We all make mistakes on the RT, but deliberate abuse is quite another thing...
Last edited by CarltonBrowne the FO; 16th Oct 2006 at 16:03. Reason: spelling
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I have done one training fix under the guidance of my instructor. I now know how effective the system is should I have need of it.
Anyone abusing the facility with foul language ought to lose their licence
I've heard of people being criticised by SkyGods for calling in when they are unsure of their position. If I ever get in such a situation I will call without hesitation rather than risk an unnecessary infringement of CAS.
That seems to me to be good airmanship.
Anyone abusing the facility with foul language ought to lose their licence
I've heard of people being criticised by SkyGods for calling in when they are unsure of their position. If I ever get in such a situation I will call without hesitation rather than risk an unnecessary infringement of CAS.
That seems to me to be good airmanship.
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I think this problem is exacerbated by those aviators who fly around with their finger on the button to castigate the first break of static on 121.5 with 'You're on guard'.
I actually heard someone berating ****air the other day who was requesting an ambulance to meet on arrival.
Honestly, I really wonder who we give licences to some days.
I actually heard someone berating ****air the other day who was requesting an ambulance to meet on arrival.
Honestly, I really wonder who we give licences to some days.