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Cross wind landings

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Cross wind landings

Old 18th Feb 2006, 14:47
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Cross wind landings

Hi all, what are people thoughts on this.

there are basically 2 methods of crosswind landing that I am currently learning, the "crabbed approach" where you approach the runway with the plane yawed into the wind, and then straighten it up just b4 the wheels touch the ground, and the "wing down" method, which involves banking the plane towards the wind, and then applying opposite rudder to keep it straight, with the wheel nearest the wind touching the ground first.

Am finding the crabbed approach much easier, and have pulled it off in cws of 20 kts with fair ease, but cannot for the life of me get the wing down method to work without hopelessly cocking up the landing!
Does anybody else have the same problem?
Is it ok just to rely on the crabbed method, or will the wing down method be required in say a ppl or cpl skill test?
What do u all think about the comparative merits of each method?

Cheers, Rooooooney.
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Old 18th Feb 2006, 14:53
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I've always thought it a personal preference. Personally, I've always gone with crab method, but that's what I was taught (Rule of Primacy?).

Indeed, it wasn't until moving to the USA that I ever heard of the wing down method - but I see nothing wrong with it for a light aircraft, especially a high wing.

Idle curiosity - what aircraft type are you being taught to land in a 20 knot cross wind (presumably as a student).

As for the "test" - you will be regarded as "Assuming all the responsibilities of the pilot in command", so the decision will be yours alone as to which method you use. It just has to work.
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Old 18th Feb 2006, 15:03
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Plane is a C172, was being a bit cheeky doing solo circuits in said wind, perhaps I exagerate a bit, the CW was 12kts, gusting to 20, so probably wasnt eaxctly 20 when I was landing. 15kts is the limit for the C172 right?

As an aside, what can happen if one pushes ones plane past the CW limit? is it an absolute no no to go over the limit, or is there a bit of leeway if for example the airport does not have an alternate runway and a stronger than the limit cw needs to be tackled?
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Old 18th Feb 2006, 15:17
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First thing you need to ask yourself when pondering questions of this sort is "what would the subsequent board of inquiry say?".

If you feel confident that you could state your case and defend it (assuming you are around to) then you are probably on the way to making a decision.

You can probably answer your own question as to what they would say if you got out of a smouldering C172 which you had attempted to land outside of the a/c limits! .

If your field only has one runway you could consider holding till the wind drops/ diverting. If you are a solo student without the training to consider this and the winds are that high then your instructor probably needs to have a long hard look at his duty of care!
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Old 18th Feb 2006, 15:34
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You may well run out of rudder authority.
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Old 18th Feb 2006, 15:43
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Fair do´s, ropey, I am by no means advocating landing in an excessive crosswind if , ur response is a fairly unimaginitive one which says "do not do it because it is against the rules," ie not very interesting.

Hypothetically, what will happen to a plane physically if one tries to land in a excessive cross wind?
How is the crosswind limit set, and can it be exceeded safely, and by how much, if its is absolutely necessary?
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Old 18th Feb 2006, 15:51
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You will run out of rudder control and not be able to line up the aircraft for the landing.
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Old 18th Feb 2006, 16:16
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sounds fair enough, and with no rudder ull end up careering off to the side, perhaps into the nearest tree/ building. You might be able to increase ur rudder control by landing at a higher speed though? What would be the highest speed that one could land at, assuming an infinite runway?
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Old 18th Feb 2006, 16:29
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If it is an infinite runway then nothing. The drift effect will certainly be reduced at higher airspeeds. But, alas not very practical. A C172 will easily cope with upto 20 kts crosswind. Although more to the point will you (ie how current/confident are you?)
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Old 18th Feb 2006, 17:06
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K.R. - so now you're saying that you are a solo student, doing crosswind landings in a 172, with a crosswind of 12 gusting 20 and no long briefing from your flying school/instructor as to the principles and sciences of crosswind landings?

Just a thought - if you want to save yourself some money in the future - don't bother taking out any insurance for the aircraft. I doubt you'll be able to make a claim on the subsequent incident.

Whilst I do fully agree that you are right to ask these questions - I do think they should be to your flying instructor, and before you go solo to practice it.

Whichever school you are paying for training is doing you a great dis-service.

More idle curiosity - next time you go to the school, could you look in their operations and training manuals as to the wind/weather conditions allowed for solo student operations. Would you mind posting them?
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Old 18th Feb 2006, 17:28
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Even if you land at a higher airspeed, as the aircraft slows down you will get to a point where you have maximum rudder deflection and you will begin to drift off downwind before it is ready to settle down on the runway. Once you go beyond the maximum demonstrated crosswind you are a test pilot and I echo Keygrip's comments - your school are putting you into a difficult and dangerous position by letting you go off on your own when you still have some questions unanswered.

Remember if anything happens and you get injured, you are the pilot in command and it will be your fault.
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Old 18th Feb 2006, 17:36
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Best intentions

I am concerned that you are asking questions to which you should already have answers too, before being let loose in a plane! I agree with Keygrip! You should be being set parameters as a student pilot and tutored in these skills ,monitored as to your progress, ability and skill. You appear to be on a very dangerous learning curve.
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Old 18th Feb 2006, 18:28
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Those of you that say that I should have been properly briefed by my FTO about the cross wind situation are right. I have been growing increasingly concerned with the quality of the instruction, whilst I am learning how to fly a plane fairly competently, getting decent scientific explanations for things, such as the crosswind landings etc, is like getting blood from a stone. There is simply no "background eduaction" to the whole training process, hence finding out things like the consequences of exceeding crosswind limits is up to me, hence the reason for this post.
Have been seriously considering switching FTO for a while now, believe me.

Keygrip however, I do not like your patronising tone a great deal, there really is no need.
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Old 18th Feb 2006, 18:38
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Why shouldn't you ask questions? It is quite healthy to theorise, we all know its not sensible to fly outwith the limitations laid down, but if the wind is 10 gusting 20 are you going to elect not to make an approach? You always have the option to go-round. A solid crosswind landing technique is an essential skill if you live anywhere near Wick!!
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Old 18th Feb 2006, 18:56
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Hufty,

Fairish point, but if one touches down at a speed which is sufficient for ones rudder to work in an excessive crosswind, when one slows down ones wheels will be in contact with the runway, and therefore the plane will not be susceptible to drift in the wind as it would if it was in the air.

Touching down and settling on the rw at say 90kts rather than 65 (in C172) might knacker the landing gear but would allow the rudder to work enough to keep you straight.
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Old 18th Feb 2006, 18:57
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I was always taught the crabbed method and it has never been an issue the fact that I haven’t done the wing down method. Landed in a 12kt crosswind (club limits for PPL holders on club a/c) on Tuesday and the crabbed method worked great. Although, I wouldn’t have liked to have done it as a solo student. Even of there wasn’t a limit on club a/c landing in crosswinds, iv set my limit at 12 kts for the min, not much higher than that.

Said airport that I think the king is learning at though seems to always have a massive crosswind on landing. Its like the runway is just at right angles to the prevailing wind! Good cup of tea though in the tower
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Old 18th Feb 2006, 19:00
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Where do you think im learning at then stuey?
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Old 18th Feb 2006, 19:03
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sunny sunny Hawarden?
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Old 18th Feb 2006, 19:05
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Nah, the only "hawarden" I know is the one I get everytime I see my girlfriend.
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Old 18th Feb 2006, 19:08
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What would be the highest speed that one could land at, assuming an infinite runway?
Depends on the tyres maximum speed rating. I've seen the effects of a warrior landing at 100kts and the tyre didn't look pretty.
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