Tailpipe Fire Sign??
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Tailpipe Fire Sign??
What's the Marshaller sign to Cockpit for a Tailpipe fire??
I bumped into the question the other day. Can't find any sign for it in CAP 637.
Is there a standard? I need to know...
I bumped into the question the other day. Can't find any sign for it in CAP 637.
Is there a standard? I need to know...
Warning Toxic!
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I think it's the look of wide-eyed horror and frantic throat cutting gestures followed by twisting around looking for the nearest extinguisher.
Sorry to be facetious, but I don't recall that one!
Sorry to be facetious, but I don't recall that one!
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No, that's rubbish. I've seen it - from a safe distance.
Marshaller removes one hand from pocket (right, as I remember) - almost.
Marshaller looks around, to see if anyone else has noticed.
Marshaller puts hand fully back into pocket, waiting for fire to extinguish.
Marshaller removes one hand from pocket (right, as I remember) - almost.
Marshaller looks around, to see if anyone else has noticed.
Marshaller puts hand fully back into pocket, waiting for fire to extinguish.
Last edited by Farmer 1; 18th Jan 2006 at 16:35.
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1 Watch mate climb into super fast pointy jet--well, ok, a Jag to be more precise.
2. Inform passing mates and associated g/fs--"watch this, you'll see something different"---blissfully unaware of what was to follow of course.
3. Clear mate to start No1 and go "Awww bollocks !" over the headset-whilst marvelling at how impressive the flames are in a HAS at 18.30hrs on a hot Friday evening in Summer in Germany.
4. Inform mate that "you have a jet pipe fire--am disconnecting"---this to er, sound the alarm btw--I then had to go back and put a set of steps on for him to evacuate the a/c. Hear rude conformation from mate just before disconnect.
5. Watch farce ensue--long story.
6. Ascertain that a/c has been on QRA for 3 days--and that the
armourers have changed the seat in this time--moving those two funny levers fully open to help things a bit !
7. Drag heap outside, dry cycle No2 and a few hundred litres of fuel emerges. Quell surprise.
8. Concur with mate and advise the same when he tells RAF plod to "F££k off or I'll deck yer"--mate being of Yorkshire extraction with limited diplomatic skills as a result--this was because the plod had commented "are we talking criminal negligence here with these two?-"--indicating moi and mate.
9. Have a "very long and meaningful discussion" with the armourer involved.
Nothing to it really. No damage to a/c and, more importantly, no silly paper work to occupy my leisure time.
The serious bit though. I have never seen a signal for a jet pipe fire and the reason I assumed it was such was that there was no other noise / explosion etc. from the engine. I know hand signals are commonly used, but, given the option I would always go for a headset--sorry, but it was one of my little quirks as direct communication can save an awful lot of "what's ups" --and a headset with a good lead on as well--not one that attaches you to the nose leg--the further away from the a/c the better I always felt. Others may well disagree of course.
2. Inform passing mates and associated g/fs--"watch this, you'll see something different"---blissfully unaware of what was to follow of course.
3. Clear mate to start No1 and go "Awww bollocks !" over the headset-whilst marvelling at how impressive the flames are in a HAS at 18.30hrs on a hot Friday evening in Summer in Germany.
4. Inform mate that "you have a jet pipe fire--am disconnecting"---this to er, sound the alarm btw--I then had to go back and put a set of steps on for him to evacuate the a/c. Hear rude conformation from mate just before disconnect.
5. Watch farce ensue--long story.
6. Ascertain that a/c has been on QRA for 3 days--and that the
armourers have changed the seat in this time--moving those two funny levers fully open to help things a bit ! 7. Drag heap outside, dry cycle No2 and a few hundred litres of fuel emerges. Quell surprise.
8. Concur with mate and advise the same when he tells RAF plod to "F££k off or I'll deck yer"--mate being of Yorkshire extraction with limited diplomatic skills as a result--this was because the plod had commented "are we talking criminal negligence here with these two?-"--indicating moi and mate.
9. Have a "very long and meaningful discussion" with the
armourer involved. Nothing to it really. No damage to a/c and, more importantly, no silly paper work to occupy my leisure time.
The serious bit though. I have never seen a signal for a jet pipe fire and the reason I assumed it was such was that there was no other noise / explosion etc. from the engine. I know hand signals are commonly used, but, given the option I would always go for a headset--sorry, but it was one of my little quirks as direct communication can save an awful lot of "what's ups" --and a headset with a good lead on as well--not one that attaches you to the nose leg--the further away from the a/c the better I always felt. Others may well disagree of course.
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Tailpipe Fire
As a former ramp hand myself we used the signal of, Left or Right arm pointing to engine with fire the other makes large figure 8's. Don't know if this is universal or not.
Hope it helps.
Hope it helps.
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I know !
It's probably the ground crew running in the opposite direction to the aircraft and a nice warm orange glow / reflection on the side of terminal building. Doh !!!
Closely followed by all the door open and slide deployed alarms going off - bouble doh !
Closely followed by all the door open and slide deployed alarms going off - bouble doh !
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Transport Canada poster TP 9528-1 hanging near our dispatch board shows it as the figure 8 on it's side thing.
Try link
http://www.tc.gc.ca/publications/BIL.../TP9528_1B.pdf
Try link
http://www.tc.gc.ca/publications/BIL.../TP9528_1B.pdf
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I guess there's only one sign for fire and no marshaller would ever bother if we're talking tailpipe or whatever kind of fire... Just wave the 8 and get out of there!
Many thanx to all of you anyways.
Many thanx to all of you anyways.
If the flames are contained within the exhaust section, which is very hot even with a normal operation, why evacuate? You can either keep the started going, pushing some air through, or wait until N2 is zero for several seconds and re-engage the starter. Just quickly check the abnormal engine procedures.
The evacuation will probably injure some people.
The evacuation will probably injure some people.
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We had a tail pipe fire on a classic a few years back, unfortunately the crew missinterpreted what the headset man was saying and thought they said fire. So they pulled the handle fired the bottles etc, unfortunately that doesn't help with a tail pipe fire, which carried on burning, and of course they couldn't blow it out now with the handle pulled. Consequently a lot more damage was done due to poor communication!
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I have to agree with Ignition Override here. Having seen 3 jet pipe fires, there is no need to evacuate. Just signal (figure 8 as described) or tell the crew via the headset of the fire and get them to dry motor the engine to put out the fire! There is even enoughtime to relocate towards the rear of the a/c (suitably clear from any jet blast of course) so you can observe and inform the crew if the fire has extinguished. If it wont go out there are 2 options.
1. Get the fire crews to put CO2 into the jet pipe (NOT water or foam the thermal shock could be very expensive) Powder/chemicals should not be used as there can be a reaction with the blade alloys (also expensive).
2. Light her up!!
older low bypass engines may not have enough puff to blow out the fire. I have seen this once on a 707/JT3. It was impressive as 20ft flames shot out of the jet pipe, but it worked.
1. Get the fire crews to put CO2 into the jet pipe (NOT water or foam the thermal shock could be very expensive) Powder/chemicals should not be used as there can be a reaction with the blade alloys (also expensive).
2. Light her up!!
older low bypass engines may not have enough puff to blow out the fire. I have seen this once on a 707/JT3. It was impressive as 20ft flames shot out of the jet pipe, but it worked.
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So if the marshaller has big eyes 
, waving an 8 and saying something about a fire you need to check your instruments.
If you have a fire you most probably have the fire bell as well as all the lights accompanied with it, whereas if you only have a tailpipe you wouldn't have any indications at all?? Correct?
, waving an 8 and saying something about a fire you need to check your instruments. If you have a fire you most probably have the fire bell as well as all the lights accompanied with it, whereas if you only have a tailpipe you wouldn't have any indications at all?? Correct?
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what i've done in the past is to get the driver to open the throttles a bit to blow it out, if that doesn't work, then tell him to shut down, and once the engine has stopped, apply co2 fire bottle until its out.
all this is a lot easier if you can use a head set, as you can explain the reasons why you're doing it, without causing panic or undue alarm.
all this is a lot easier if you can use a head set, as you can explain the reasons why you're doing it, without causing panic or undue alarm.
Paxing All Over The World
Pax asking: Is a tail-pipe fire a bit like a combustion engine back-firing, with unburnt fuel getting through to the exhaust? After all, getting that special fluid through to the hot parts before it is needed, can cause problems. 
Hey! It's Friday afternoon.
Hey! It's Friday afternoon.
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whereas if you only have a tailpipe you wouldn't have any indications at all?? Correct?
, would see a rise in EGT, on most engines I know, the EGT thermocouples are at the back and would indicate a rise in temperature due to the fire in the back.
Is a tail-pipe fire a bit like a combustion engine back-firing, with unburnt fuel getting through to the exhaust?
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When on the headset advise crew to shut off fuel and continue with starter engaged to clear the engine. Most engine starters can't drive the engine above 20% N2 and have a good 3 mins duty cycle with no damage.