Madeira(FNC) airport...
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Join Date: Feb 2000
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Madeira(FNC) airport...
In the last few days the FNC airport has been under some heavy winds.... .The Portuguese national ailine(TAP),has cancelled all her flights inbound and outbound sayinfg that it complyes to the wind limits,and that puts pax safety first.On the other hand another Portuguse airline(Air Luxor),and several others(GB airways,Condor,LTU,Sterling),did land...and it seems that some landed with winds out of limits.. .Now, the INAC(portuguese (CAA),is investigating if they have done so,having inclusive asked for the Pilots names for further investigation.. .I still think the the national carrier holds a good stand(SAFETY above all...),rather than the smaller airlines that risk quite more all in name of corporate pressure and profits.. .Those of you that fly or have flown into FNC-Madeira could comment this... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />
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If you continue your approach when the wind is outside the published limits laid down by the Portuguese authorities you will be reported to your appropriate aviation authority and risk not being allowed to go there again. I don't have the document to hand, but I seem to remember that if a company trangresses more than a few times (3 ?) then that company will be prohibited from further operations into Madeira. Let's face it, it's not the sort of place to treat lightly at the best of times.
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It is a little more confusing as the Brief says that ATC will inform you that the wind is "out of limits" and ask you for your intentions. . .They don't; however they do report you for the breach - you have been warned.
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Flex 42, ATC will notify anyway the Portugese CAA, It is strange that ATC requests your intentions if the wind is out of limits. So can it be that you get your clearance to land with the wind above the depicted limits.. .. .In our airline it is strictly forbidden to land, under those conditions, since it can lead to the withdrawal of the operating permit for FNC.. . . . <small>[ 27 March 2002, 20:05: Message edited by: quickturnaround ]</small>
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I regularly fly a public transport jet into FNC. The one comment I would like to add to the discussion is that am I the only one to notice that the wind seems to spend an awfull lot of time at 14Knots!! Since the legal limit in most directions is 15Knots this raises the unpleasant possibility that the tower are being economic with the truth when it comes to giving a wind check. If that is the case then the implications are very disturbing. And since I am sure the anenometers used are not of the recording type then how is any incident to be investigated subsequently?
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ATC asking for intentions means basically do you want diversion to Porto Santo ( the most likely option ) or return to mainland. . .The " official " wind that will be taken in case on an incident or accident will likely be that of the Meteorological anemomenters ( the ones used for the METRAR). . .The TWR ones) are only an immediate indication.. .I doubt very much that TWR ATC in FNC downgrade the wind to allow operations. If there is more than 15 KTS they will tell you, I can assure you.. .. .The Marinair DC10 FARO crash is still in the mind on many Portuguese controllers .. .( Incidentally that day all TAP and Portugalia flights diverted to Sevilla , only some of the charters tried despite the wind, but after the crash the Dutch authorities tried to blame ATC )
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I fly regularly out and into FNC!. .. .Now, about the limitations, they were imposed after the TAP 727 acident 24 years ago, by then the runway was only 5500ft long, now it has 8800ft long! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" /> . .. .Those limitations are are too conservative and fool! I`ve seen go-arounds there for wind winds up to 10 Kts, and superb apps and landings with winds up to 30 Kts!!! Those limitations are so fool, that the local autonomous goverment, negociated a limitation change for runway 23 sector 120º to 230º maximum 10Kts to sector 120º to 200º maximum 25 Kts!!! . .. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> . .. .What about that? Know, wind limitations are negociable? . .. .The problem in Funchal (madeira) is that it has never been made a serious study about the winds! The portuguese INAC should do what the CAA did in Gibraltar (basically the same problem then Funchal) and publish a chart with the results! Have a look at the Gibraltar Jeppesens! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> . .. .No limitations exists in Gibraltar, it`s pilot judgment!!!!. .. .And I don`t think that LTU, Condor, BA, Monarch, etc, etc... are less safe than TAP! No pilot wants to risk is neck!!!!!. .. .Cheers!
Having been to GIB many times, i can state that there are most certainly wind limits there, and you would be a nut to exceed them. The wind effects have been studied in depth, and Aerad (or whatever they call 'em selves) have nice drawings of the wind effects.Also if you visit the tower, they have a nice illustration of the effects of the wind, vis. a model of the Island with smoke showing the effect of the wind/terrain. The nice ATC folks also have some video nasties of some landing attempts, when in limits <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. .The main problem is fog, and the 5k vis requirement in GIB.
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Just back from a month on Madeira, regularly passed a windsock on a motorway bridge situated on the final approach to 05 at FNC. One day whilst driving by, I noticed this indicated a South Westerly of reasonable strength (10 to 15kts at a guess). Passing the airport viewing area a few minutes and no more than two miles later I noticed that the windsock adjacent to the 05 threshold was indicating a strong North Easterly. Then watched a JMC aircraft make a couple of interesting approachs and subsequent go-arounds before thinking better of it and departing. Saw almost the same thing on three other occasions during my stay. Fully aware that go-arounds are perfectly normal procedure, but they are rarely confidence inspiring for the passengers, especially somewhere with terrain like Madeira.. .. .I'm not qualified to comment on the safety aspects of operating commercial aircraft into the place, but as an experienced PPL and glider pilot I've seen enough to convince me that I wont be a passenger for Funchal again.
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While we are on the topic can I ask a question of FNC regulars?. .I am new to the place and have only made two landings there, the second was distinctly interesting being in that recent weather. Last minute control difficulties at the threshhold were literally a knee trembler.. .I was concerned about the suitability of Porto Santo as a diversion when having the same weather.. .With the wind across from the high ground at say 25G35 what sort of difficulties could I expect?. .The Jep plates warn of X-winds and wind shear.. .We took extra fuel to allow somewhere nice but further like TFS or LPA.. .Was that timid or sensible?. .BTW unlike the schedules, the charters have to go sooner or later. Sure enough TAP had cancelled leaving a packed terminal of disgruntle pax sitting on their cases.. .Nice island though....going again next month.
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Golliponda, Porto Santo wx is generally totally different than FNC. ( in the same manner as TFN is totally different as TFS despite being on same island )Runway in Porto santo is in the middle of the island not in ,parallel and partly attached artificially to the coast line, like in FNC ,and it used to be much longer.. .The only thing to watch in Porto Santo is the brief windshear/ turbulence on final approach when one passes the cliff. Once over land it is generally OK.
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Having had to divert to Porto Santo after an awesome little display by nature on how those winds at FNC can throw around an airliner in the last few hundred feet, I just want to confirm for anyone who has not had it happen to them....yet! that Porto Santo is sublime compared to what you leave behind at FNC. The winds remained such that we and other aircraft ended staying over night and the pax were transported to and from FNC on the large ferry that operates between the two. Apparently the ferry crossing in these conditions is just as sporty as the approach! Hotels are fine, but limited in the number of rooms if there is a mass divert. However, the island does have fantastic stretches of beach, unlike Madeira which has none and swimming in those breakers was worth all the hassle. I think the moral of the story is.... always take a small nightstop kit with you on a "quick out and back" to FNC. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" />
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Latin Sky (and everyone else)... it appears that you obviously do not operate into FNC or GIB, and have never done so.. .. .Having spent many of the last years going into both places, you will in fact find that the UK carriers are by far the most prudent... especially if you are comparing to carriers such as TAP. Many a time I have witnessed TAP blatently ignoring state minima, both on viz and winds, with ATC effectively allowing them to do so.. .. .As those of you that do operate into these places (especially GIB) you will know for a fact that a wind say of 230/15 on a monday, won't give the same conditions for the same wind on a Tuesday. Conditions which are percieved to be 'safe' can change in the snap of a finger, not only for the better, but sometimes for the worse... and when they do go, they truly go.. .. .Judging safety of UK carriers cannot effectively be judged purely on one days observation of one flight getting in, and the others diverting or being cancelled.. .. .To be honest... who would you REALLY want to fly with... the one carrier that always gets in, regardless of the weather, or those who err on the side of caution?!?
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FNC is not the only airport were weather can spoil your day, there are may of them in Europe, like Samos,Dubrovnik,Calvi,Chambery etc etc.. .Only at FNC crews are warned what can happen if you decide to land despite Wx limits. Remember that you are always responsible especially when you land with weather being out of limits and things go wrong afterwards. There are counties in the EU where such crews are sent to jail immediately!!
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GB Airways landing out of limits. Very unusual as they have a reputation fot being one of the more cautious operators into GIB and FNC. Couldn't be the influence of old "saddle 'em up and ride 'em out" Slippery Bill could it. . .. .It would be a shame if GB Airways lost its approval to fly into FNC. I hope the chief pilot hangs the crew by the b£$&&cks. Unless of course it was the Chief Pilot, in which case its time to cover up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" />
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There are a lot of airlines out there that disregard limitations. I often sat watching 737s come and go in the UK and Ireland with winds across the runway of 40 gusting 50 kts. These pilots were not reported by atc. . .Some of these airlines are on tight budgets and can’t afford diversions or the crews would get into trouble with management.
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Hector_Pascal,. .. .I`m glad you enjoyed your stay in Porto Santo, europes most hidden secret! In what hotel did you stay? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . .. .ATC Whatcher,. .. .I`m impressed with what you know about Porto Santo! It`s true, always be very carefull when passing the cliff. You can get severe updrafts and downdrafts! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . .. .Once again, relative to Funchal, I`ve been operating there for 3 years and I`ve got worst landings and apps in LOWI, LOWS, EIDW and EGPF. Those airports can be really bad!. .. .About the wind limitations, if you they are too conservative, there has never been made a study about them, just like in GIB. Those limitations were imposed by a guy (retired pilot) working at the INAC, who flew a lot to Funchal and he thinks they`re good like that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> . .. .As far as I know, they were based in some information given by TAP! But, when the new runway was finished it was shifted 5 degrees in relation to the old one and the part suported by pylons (is that the word?), similar to a bridge, changed the effects of the winds... Everyone agrees with that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" /> !!! So, the INAC, decided to shrink the limits! Airlines werw diverting everyday! The local goverment complained and the old limits were restored and after some time, they were increased by a few knots... . .. .SEE what I`m trying to say? That`s the way the winds were handled in Funchal... No real study!. .. .From personal experience, I can say, be VERY VERY carefull when in use runway 23 and winds in 05 come from 180-220º and 23 also... and above 25 Kts... Doesn`t seem bad, I know... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> Wind will come from all directions from 100 feet to the ground... and severe turbulence with it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . .. .Cheers!!!. .. .Nice easter for you all