Madeira(FNC) airport...
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
From: Gotham City
DontSink thanks for the anecdotal evidence. I have been operating to FNC for over 15 years, and agree it can be un predicable.
The runway is now of a good length and the main factors are the terrain and its effect on the wind. I agree that it lacks a conclusive study into the wind effects, however based on my own experience, I prefer to to have, possibly, cautious limits until the true effects of the winds are proven. There are plans to resite the anenometers on the side of the hills and to provide more predictive wind information, but this could result in more restrictive limitations at times.
The UK operators into FNC need to remember the economic effects of incidents at FNC.
Air Europe wrote off a B757 (rebuilt to save face) and more recently Airtours had a tailscrape which cost the company millions.
Both these incidents happened with the wind in limits!!!
There is no shame in going around if the approach becomes desatabilised. Even if this takes more courage than pushing your luck.
The runway is now of a good length and the main factors are the terrain and its effect on the wind. I agree that it lacks a conclusive study into the wind effects, however based on my own experience, I prefer to to have, possibly, cautious limits until the true effects of the winds are proven. There are plans to resite the anenometers on the side of the hills and to provide more predictive wind information, but this could result in more restrictive limitations at times.
The UK operators into FNC need to remember the economic effects of incidents at FNC.
Air Europe wrote off a B757 (rebuilt to save face) and more recently Airtours had a tailscrape which cost the company millions.
Both these incidents happened with the wind in limits!!!
There is no shame in going around if the approach becomes desatabilised. Even if this takes more courage than pushing your luck.
ATC
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
From: Lisbon, Portugal
Regulations :
Funchal / Madeira Airport ( LPMA / FNC ) has wind limitations for operation both approach and take-off.
Wind limitations are stated in Portuguese AIP.
According AIP when wind is out of published limits pilots are requested to readback wind information and inform ATC about itentions.
When an operation is performed with winds above limits, the operation will be reported to Portuguese Authorities (INAC = Portuguese CAA).
Experience :
Wind limitations for approach are from touchdown anemometer and sometimes with wind within limits, the difference between rosario and touchdown winds for Rwy 06 (now 05) is such that approaches are harder then with with winds out f limits.
Wind limitations are based on 2 min average wind at touchdown; for Rwy 06 (now 05) it took 5 to 6 minutes between IAF Funor and final so approach clearance was given when pilot reported intention of 'trying' the approach. If winds were above limits, and as normally happens, decision to land or not belonged to the pilot and if intending to land clarance was given.
It sometimes happened that wind was blowing 1 degree or 1 kt out of limits and ATC omitted that 1 degree/kt to allow operation without report but always knowing that difference was marginal and captain has final decision on operation.
Also wind readings at TWr were until few years ago only direct reading from anemometer i.e. they didn't have te possibility to aloow ATC to see 2 min / 10 min average ... and without this facility is difficult to judge what is and what is not 'gusting'...
INAC is waiting for a study done buy Airbus on wind limitations for operation at Funchal in order to have the wind limitations corrected, if necessary.
Funchal / Madeira Airport ( LPMA / FNC ) has wind limitations for operation both approach and take-off.
Wind limitations are stated in Portuguese AIP.
According AIP when wind is out of published limits pilots are requested to readback wind information and inform ATC about itentions.
When an operation is performed with winds above limits, the operation will be reported to Portuguese Authorities (INAC = Portuguese CAA).
Experience :
Wind limitations for approach are from touchdown anemometer and sometimes with wind within limits, the difference between rosario and touchdown winds for Rwy 06 (now 05) is such that approaches are harder then with with winds out f limits.
Wind limitations are based on 2 min average wind at touchdown; for Rwy 06 (now 05) it took 5 to 6 minutes between IAF Funor and final so approach clearance was given when pilot reported intention of 'trying' the approach. If winds were above limits, and as normally happens, decision to land or not belonged to the pilot and if intending to land clarance was given.
It sometimes happened that wind was blowing 1 degree or 1 kt out of limits and ATC omitted that 1 degree/kt to allow operation without report but always knowing that difference was marginal and captain has final decision on operation.
Also wind readings at TWr were until few years ago only direct reading from anemometer i.e. they didn't have te possibility to aloow ATC to see 2 min / 10 min average ... and without this facility is difficult to judge what is and what is not 'gusting'...
INAC is waiting for a study done buy Airbus on wind limitations for operation at Funchal in order to have the wind limitations corrected, if necessary.
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 5,552
Likes: 25
From: ME
Tom747uk,
I’m used to FAA certified aircraft, a quick browse through Airplane Flight Manuals for a B737, B747, B757 and B777 revealed that these airplanes under FAA regulations do not have a crosswind LIMITATION.
As you have said that “There are a lot of airlines out there that disregard limitations”, Can you please tell me what the AFM Crosswind limit for a European registered B737 is?
Apologies for getting off the subject of FNC.
Thanks.
Mutt.
I’m used to FAA certified aircraft, a quick browse through Airplane Flight Manuals for a B737, B747, B757 and B777 revealed that these airplanes under FAA regulations do not have a crosswind LIMITATION.
As you have said that “There are a lot of airlines out there that disregard limitations”, Can you please tell me what the AFM Crosswind limit for a European registered B737 is?
Apologies for getting off the subject of FNC.
Thanks.
Mutt.
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
From: Manchester UK
FNC
FNC is an airport to be taken very carefully and it demands considerable respect. This is why special training is required of pilots who operate there.
FNC can be as easy as pie. One day can result in a totally normal approach and landing. On another day in similar conditions, one can find very demanding flying.
Wind studies have been done.
Unfortunately, increasing the runway length - adding the "lip" on the extension have only added to the possible control problems.
A 180 degree shift in wind on the approach or at the runway ends is not uncommon.
Take care at this demanding airport.
FNC can be as easy as pie. One day can result in a totally normal approach and landing. On another day in similar conditions, one can find very demanding flying.
Wind studies have been done.
Unfortunately, increasing the runway length - adding the "lip" on the extension have only added to the possible control problems.
A 180 degree shift in wind on the approach or at the runway ends is not uncommon.
Take care at this demanding airport.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 20
Likes: 13
From: Lisbon - Portugal
Hi
I'd like to add some charts that were published on Portuguese newspaper "Expresso" about this subjet (sorry about the Portuguese)
As shown in the figure, the wind limits for FNC in the sector between 300º and 20º, are 15 knots and 25 knots for gusts.
The next chart shows the wind velocity according to METAR reports on March, 26th. Any landing on that date was above wind limitations.
Regards
I'd like to add some charts that were published on Portuguese newspaper "Expresso" about this subjet (sorry about the Portuguese)
As shown in the figure, the wind limits for FNC in the sector between 300º and 20º, are 15 knots and 25 knots for gusts.
The next chart shows the wind velocity according to METAR reports on March, 26th. Any landing on that date was above wind limitations.
Regards
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
From: Lisbon-Portugal
Go around
Here is a pretty amazing video clip off 2 missed approaches at Madeira airport...runway 23 in use.
TAP Air Portugal Airbus 321
http://194.65.6.250/mbs/files/madeira.zip
TAP Air Portugal Airbus 321
http://194.65.6.250/mbs/files/madeira.zip
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
From: Don`t know anymore.....
TO MUTT,
I fly BOEING , and know their is no x-wind lim , as on the French plastique tube busses.....mmmmmhhh wonder why ???
I go to FNC as well, the only thing is that Port. CAA needs a qual. from every skipper entering FNC.
I go to SMI-Samos/Greece too - and that is even much more damn to go ! Sev.Turb on final already abv 10 kts.XXX RWY 1960 MTRs !!! No lights ! High terrain !
25 kts X-wind in LAX does not mean no nothing, but 25 kts in those places are already close beyond aircraft control abillities !
Happy landings to all
AP
B 757/767
Skipper
I fly BOEING , and know their is no x-wind lim , as on the French plastique tube busses.....mmmmmhhh wonder why ???
I go to FNC as well, the only thing is that Port. CAA needs a qual. from every skipper entering FNC.
I go to SMI-Samos/Greece too - and that is even much more damn to go ! Sev.Turb on final already abv 10 kts.XXX RWY 1960 MTRs !!! No lights ! High terrain !
25 kts X-wind in LAX does not mean no nothing, but 25 kts in those places are already close beyond aircraft control abillities !
Happy landings to all
AP
B 757/767
Skipper
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
From: Europa
What about wind read out?
Next to all remarkts made regarding winddirection and -velocity, not to mention the windshears and turbulence I would like to draw your attention to another factor which is always present and what would easily overlooked.
The windreports from the tower mention the steady wind and only when the gusts are 10 kts or more those are mentioned. It is quite easy to have a steady wind from the NE at 17 kts with no gusts reported, where the gust is close to 9 knots and exceeding the limitations.
This is just an example of how easy it is to be misinformed and not knowingly exceeding limitations.
It's not the people but the system (ICAO) that fails. At certain airports all gusts are reported.
The windreports from the tower mention the steady wind and only when the gusts are 10 kts or more those are mentioned. It is quite easy to have a steady wind from the NE at 17 kts with no gusts reported, where the gust is close to 9 knots and exceeding the limitations.
This is just an example of how easy it is to be misinformed and not knowingly exceeding limitations.
It's not the people but the system (ICAO) that fails. At certain airports all gusts are reported.
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 108
Likes: 1
From: ATLANTIS
Landing at night can it be done at FNC
Just recently I learned that the commercial boys at our company are planning us, to fly at night to FNC Madeira.
I find that during daylight the approach here is hairraising enough!
Are there any airlines that land there at night and do you need appart from the standard approuval from the Portugese CAA, a special one for night landings?
I wonder......
I find that during daylight the approach here is hairraising enough!
Are there any airlines that land there at night and do you need appart from the standard approuval from the Portugese CAA, a special one for night landings?
I wonder......
