Calling Malfunctions on Takeoff
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 72
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From: NSW
Menen et al,
Wow. Emergency Authority? The only time I know when the F/O might have emergency authority is when the F/O needs to conduct the "Dead Captain Drill"
Thankfully not often.
What rubbish we are exposed to. How about some common sense and acknowledge that the Trans Cockpit Authority Gradient slopes left to right....................but with it comes clear legislated responsibility.
Get real!
Wow. Emergency Authority? The only time I know when the F/O might have emergency authority is when the F/O needs to conduct the "Dead Captain Drill"
Thankfully not often.
What rubbish we are exposed to. How about some common sense and acknowledge that the Trans Cockpit Authority Gradient slopes left to right....................but with it comes clear legislated responsibility.
Get real!
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 126
Likes: 0
From: Hoofddorp -NL
Lot of fuss about nothing. Obviously most important thing is that the right decision is taken as fast as possible.
FWIW; in our company, for a/c type I fly (B73):
-Once take-off thrust is set and roll commenced, aborting for just an amber master-caution light is not recommended.
-After passing 80 kts, aborting take off should be restricted to engine fire/failure and control problems affecting safe a/c handling
-Either pilot may call stop, PF aborts take-off.
-Only until V1 the 'STOP' call can be given.
-Outside previously mentioned guidelines only captain may decide to abort.
Guess there will always be scenarios that won't fit inside the procedures mentioned in this topic, but that keeps the job interesting.
FWIW; in our company, for a/c type I fly (B73):
-Once take-off thrust is set and roll commenced, aborting for just an amber master-caution light is not recommended.
-After passing 80 kts, aborting take off should be restricted to engine fire/failure and control problems affecting safe a/c handling
-Either pilot may call stop, PF aborts take-off.
-Only until V1 the 'STOP' call can be given.
-Outside previously mentioned guidelines only captain may decide to abort.
Guess there will always be scenarios that won't fit inside the procedures mentioned in this topic, but that keeps the job interesting.
Last edited by LLuke; 26th April 2004 at 15:35.
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Posts: n/a
Lluke. You say that its' a lot of fuss about nothing. Don't you believe it chum - it is a deadly serious subject. You say that in your company, either pilot can call STOP and the PF aborts. From that I assume that if the first officer is PNF and calls STOP, the captain does as he is commanded and throws out the anchor. The word STOP is a command - not an idle comment.
Sounds like a recipe for potential disaster to me. What if the call STOP was made when the take off was runway critical and it was purely the first officer's personal opinion that something was unsafe - and the captain aborted on the call and over-ran the runway causing casualties.
Think about it from a lawyer's point of view representing the casualties. As per Gunshy 67 post, who would wear the blame? The first officer or the captain? The captain's entire responsibility is enshrined in legislation.
Furthermore - are you saying that if the captain is PF and calls STOP, the responsibility for handling of the abort is the first officers - and not the captain?
Sounds like a recipe for potential disaster to me. What if the call STOP was made when the take off was runway critical and it was purely the first officer's personal opinion that something was unsafe - and the captain aborted on the call and over-ran the runway causing casualties.
Think about it from a lawyer's point of view representing the casualties. As per Gunshy 67 post, who would wear the blame? The first officer or the captain? The captain's entire responsibility is enshrined in legislation.
Furthermore - are you saying that if the captain is PF and calls STOP, the responsibility for handling of the abort is the first officers - and not the captain?
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 126
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From: Hoofddorp -NL
Forgot to mention in my previous post we also use V1 as decision speed. Don't abort after V1 although also here one can be in the situation that it is the only possibility.
"What if..."
The FO calls stop, the Captain fails to see why (oil fluctuations??) and continues. Doesn't make that Captain necessarily popular for his decision. Maybe the FO called stop for another reason? Maybe by the time the FO explained why he called stop things get a bit late.
Aborting for an erroneous call from FO (or captain) below 80 kts isn't fatal. Above 80 kts both pilots can identify an engine fire/failure/jammed stabilizer. It is not that difficult.
Fortunately life isn't always black or white. There may be time for describing/challenging situations in plain language. ("Hee, is that a car on the RWY?") Captain is clearly the highest authority and responsible by law for everything & everybody. Also responsible for mistakes from others. If this responsibility is too much one wonders. They don't get their appreciated salaries for solving x-word puzzles in the newspapers, do they?
"What if..."
The FO calls stop, the Captain fails to see why (oil fluctuations??) and continues. Doesn't make that Captain necessarily popular for his decision. Maybe the FO called stop for another reason? Maybe by the time the FO explained why he called stop things get a bit late.
Aborting for an erroneous call from FO (or captain) below 80 kts isn't fatal. Above 80 kts both pilots can identify an engine fire/failure/jammed stabilizer. It is not that difficult.
Fortunately life isn't always black or white. There may be time for describing/challenging situations in plain language. ("Hee, is that a car on the RWY?") Captain is clearly the highest authority and responsible by law for everything & everybody. Also responsible for mistakes from others. If this responsibility is too much one wonders. They don't get their appreciated salaries for solving x-word puzzles in the newspapers, do they?
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Posts: n/a
Interesting paragraphs explaining the Boeing philosophy from the FCT 737 (TM) page 2.42 under the sub paragraph entitled Rejected Takeoff Maneuver
....The pilot not flying should closely monitor essential instruments throughout the takeoff roll and immediately announce abnormalities, such as "Engine Fire," Engine Failure," or any adverse condition significantly affecting safety of flight. The decision to reject the take off is the responsibility of the captain, and must be made prior to V1 speed.
If the decision is made to reject, the Captain must, without delay ;
Rapidly and simultaneously retard the thrust levers to idle and apply maximum braking, or verify proper operation of RTO autobrakes.
Immediately extend the speedbrakes and initiate reverse thrust consistent with the conditions.
Maintain maximum braking and reverse thrust as required, transitioning to the normal landing roll procedure after determining that stopping on the remaining runway is assured.
During the rejected takeoff, the First Officer calls "60 knots" during deceleration.
There are additional notes on the rejected takeoff manoeuvre, but the main points are that it is the captain who decides on the abort (not the first officer calling STOP). And it is the captain who handles every part of the physical process throughout the reject manoeuvre.
....The pilot not flying should closely monitor essential instruments throughout the takeoff roll and immediately announce abnormalities, such as "Engine Fire," Engine Failure," or any adverse condition significantly affecting safety of flight. The decision to reject the take off is the responsibility of the captain, and must be made prior to V1 speed.
If the decision is made to reject, the Captain must, without delay ;
Rapidly and simultaneously retard the thrust levers to idle and apply maximum braking, or verify proper operation of RTO autobrakes.
Immediately extend the speedbrakes and initiate reverse thrust consistent with the conditions.
Maintain maximum braking and reverse thrust as required, transitioning to the normal landing roll procedure after determining that stopping on the remaining runway is assured.
During the rejected takeoff, the First Officer calls "60 knots" during deceleration.
There are additional notes on the rejected takeoff manoeuvre, but the main points are that it is the captain who decides on the abort (not the first officer calling STOP). And it is the captain who handles every part of the physical process throughout the reject manoeuvre.
