Now what?
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Now what?
I was reading the topic about engine fires after V1 and I couldn't help making a new topic related to the same issue. The innitial part of securing an engine (for whatever reason, I just leave that to your imagination), is more or less the same drill at all airlines. However what do you do next? My company policy is to follow the SID. Now I know some other companies prefer to continue on runwaytrack. Both policies above have different procedures for airports/SIDs were obstacle clearence turns up, but other than that, I think it makes a big difference if you continue following the SID or just fly runwaytrack.
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Hi E120, Brasilia flyer? Even though it might be company policy, I brief the other pilot that we'll go runway track (as long as it's not conflicting with obstacles etc.) because if it's a really bad emergency, I'd like minimal workload. As long as you brief it and the other pilot agrees with it, I think you can do it.
Sometimes if you have to make a right turn after takeoff and the left engine quits on you, you might not be able to make that right turn, especially in a turboprop.
I'll also always brief what altitude I want to level off at, so the other pilot can notify ATC and knows exactly what we're gonna do.
At our company, the SOPs are not written in stone. Well they are, but they're more like a guideline. Just brief your intentions.
Sometimes if you have to make a right turn after takeoff and the left engine quits on you, you might not be able to make that right turn, especially in a turboprop.
I'll also always brief what altitude I want to level off at, so the other pilot can notify ATC and knows exactly what we're gonna do.
At our company, the SOPs are not written in stone. Well they are, but they're more like a guideline. Just brief your intentions.
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an emergency.. 
Personally I think, there is probably no solution (SOP-procedure), which works in every situation, under every circumstances on every airport and in every weather condition. I believe, finding the best compromise of:
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...100% human beef, drilled to perfection...
Personally I think, there is probably no solution (SOP-procedure), which works in every situation, under every circumstances on every airport and in every weather condition. I believe, finding the best compromise of:
- low workload
- ensuring maximum obstacle clearance (MSA !)
- not endagering other traffic
- weather considerations
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...100% human beef, drilled to perfection...
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First of all, we have special n-1 procedures as well for certain airports. But at airports were obstacle clearence is not an issue we INNITIALY follow the SID. After everything is taken care off, off course we be glad to accept radar vectors or what so ever. Think about this; first fly the plane, take action and fly the plane! The only thing we tell to ATC innitialy is to standby and that we are following the SID with n-1. Now there's no talking on the radio anymore and both pilots can concentrate on what's going on in the cockpit, without interference of ATC. Both pilots know exactly what to do, because following the SID was our first intention anyway. Now, the stress has dead out, the crew can decide on the next action to take, which probably will be a request for vectors. All this is in contrast to doing someting unfamiliar and talking with ATC when requesting vectors immediatly after an engine failure. Not to mention flying in a "black hole" if you continue on runway track (if you know what I mean). Think of other traffic for instance.
Now this is not neccesary my opinion, but just a note to get the discussion going.
Greetz, E.
Now this is not neccesary my opinion, but just a note to get the discussion going.
Greetz, E.
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Of course, if there's a black hole on the extended runway centerline, I wouldn't go there! 
Seriously, you make the best choice available.
So you're following the SID, what altitude are you going to climb to? Say for instance a SID from Heathrow, you're going up to 6000 ft. Is that really what you want to do if you had an engine failure? I mean, we're talking engine failure/fire here which is something you'd return to the airport for, right?
Do you brief what altitude you want to climb to (usually I brief the nearest round altitude above applicable MSA) beforehand? Otherwise you'll need a second call to ATC to tell 'em what altitude you'd like to stay at.
BUT, you're following the SID and either climbing up to 6000' (not advisable if you don't know if the fire's out and the engine is shut down) or staying at a lower altitude, and now you might bust certain altitude/waypoint restriction on the published SID.
All things to consider.
Seriously, you make the best choice available.So you're following the SID, what altitude are you going to climb to? Say for instance a SID from Heathrow, you're going up to 6000 ft. Is that really what you want to do if you had an engine failure? I mean, we're talking engine failure/fire here which is something you'd return to the airport for, right?
Do you brief what altitude you want to climb to (usually I brief the nearest round altitude above applicable MSA) beforehand? Otherwise you'll need a second call to ATC to tell 'em what altitude you'd like to stay at.
BUT, you're following the SID and either climbing up to 6000' (not advisable if you don't know if the fire's out and the engine is shut down) or staying at a lower altitude, and now you might bust certain altitude/waypoint restriction on the published SID.
All things to consider.
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Iz, I still think you miss my point. Which is to INNITIALY follow the SID, and after things are done; take a vector and level off. More or less it makes sense. First take care of the problem and fly the thing. Then notify ATC as mentioned above and get the checklists over with, now go back to ATC and state your intentions (e.g altitude, vectors, takeoff alternate or what so ever). Now, here's a hint I didn't mention before; in case of a return we make the following choice: if the SID takes you away from the airport or to a much higher altitude than you prefer, you will state your intentions right after finishing the checklists. If for example, the SID takes you to a downwind, you'll be fine, 'cause that's what you want. In this case talking to ATC has no priority anymore. Thing is, don't get overreacted in a case like this and don't rush into things. Doing it like this gives me plenty of margin to get back on the ground safe and within a small amount of time.
(By the way; there's probably no good or wrong here by doing it your, mine or somebody else's way, it's just how you look at it)
Greetz, E.
(By the way; there's probably no good or wrong here by doing it your, mine or somebody else's way, it's just how you look at it)
Greetz, E.
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E120, I totally agree with you in that there's several ways, and I do get your point, just clarifying arguments for a runway track climbout in such an event. Thing is, I've switched between three companies in the last few years and with different instructors and company SOPs I've had plenty of discussions about this.
As long as you brief what you're doing
As long as you brief what you're doing
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You can do what ever you want if it is justified in the event of an emergency. An engine fire is an emergency an engine failure is slightly less so.
I don't reckon you can talk your way out of deviating fron the SID by saying "Our company told us to!"
If you are unable to follow the SID you should be following the published contingency plan or on a radar vector once requested. The radar vector plan kills two birds with one stone as it puts the terrain clearance in someone elses hands whilst alerting others of your plight.
The aircraft should be on autopilot once above acceleration altitude and trimmed and that reduces workload considerably.
Just the checklists to read now. No big deal, was it?
I don't reckon you can talk your way out of deviating fron the SID by saying "Our company told us to!"
If you are unable to follow the SID you should be following the published contingency plan or on a radar vector once requested. The radar vector plan kills two birds with one stone as it puts the terrain clearance in someone elses hands whilst alerting others of your plight.
The aircraft should be on autopilot once above acceleration altitude and trimmed and that reduces workload considerably.
Just the checklists to read now. No big deal, was it?
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I sure can't improve on you folks' advice, but once the plane is climbing with gear up, at least V2 and on runway heading, at least a few hundred feet in the air: the non-flying/handling pilot calls ATC and says: 1) "we're declaring an emergency, engine etc problem, request straight ahead on runway heading". They know that we'll call him/her right back when (cleaned up and climbing at Vzf, with the Captain ready to give the plane and the ATC radio to the FO, so the Captain can quickly read/do the Emer Checklist...) ready for a turn towards crosswind/downwind...and 2) "we need the emergency equipment standing by".
This is our typical simulator plan for an engine failure at or just after V1, or for an engine fire on takeoff. It will work if we lose the Emer AC or DC bus in IMC or whatever.
If tower/departure control sees an obstacle ahead (or the "Prohibited Airspace!" in Wash, DC), their JOB is to turn us NOW! If in uncontrolled airspace with terrain etc, you had better have your SID out and very VISIBLE on your yoke or Airbus "lunch tray"... anyway.
A former check airman I flew with, when I told him that it might not always be best to return a heavy airplane to the departure airport with only short runways (Midway or LaGuardia, NY only 7,000 feet) when much longer runways are at a nearby airport, definitely agreed with that idea, especially landing at hotter single-engine speeds etc, on wet or dry runways.
With changing/rushed duties, just make sure WHO is flying the airplane.
This is our typical simulator plan for an engine failure at or just after V1, or for an engine fire on takeoff. It will work if we lose the Emer AC or DC bus in IMC or whatever.
If tower/departure control sees an obstacle ahead (or the "Prohibited Airspace!" in Wash, DC), their JOB is to turn us NOW! If in uncontrolled airspace with terrain etc, you had better have your SID out and very VISIBLE on your yoke or Airbus "lunch tray"... anyway.
A former check airman I flew with, when I told him that it might not always be best to return a heavy airplane to the departure airport with only short runways (Midway or LaGuardia, NY only 7,000 feet) when much longer runways are at a nearby airport, definitely agreed with that idea, especially landing at hotter single-engine speeds etc, on wet or dry runways.
With changing/rushed duties, just make sure WHO is flying the airplane.
