Oh no, its "Practice pan, Practice pan" time again!!
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Thanks Wannabe, nice comment!
If you take the time to read my post once more, you'll see the only reason you won't get my attention is because I'm not listening, my volume is turned down. And happy easter to you too!
Phoenix, The rest of the world (except the Chinese) try to keep 121.5 free from all chatter. Your practice affects listening watch far outside your airspace. Guard frequencys should be left open and guarded until they are needed. To me, it's as simple as that. Happy easter!
If you take the time to read my post once more, you'll see the only reason you won't get my attention is because I'm not listening, my volume is turned down. And happy easter to you too!
Phoenix, The rest of the world (except the Chinese) try to keep 121.5 free from all chatter. Your practice affects listening watch far outside your airspace. Guard frequencys should be left open and guarded until they are needed. To me, it's as simple as that. Happy easter!
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No, it's not about what frequency you should do it on. 121.5 is the only D&D frequency available, as has already been pointed out. Or would you prefer the expense of installing an entire bunch of new transmitters and DF equipment?
As for my last comment, it was perhaps a tad strong. However, I have very little sympathy with people who have forgotten what it was like to be a student and now think that because they wear a nice dark uniform with shiny stripes on the sleeve that all students should keep out of their way, be (occasionally) seen but not heard, and not inconvenience anyone higher up the food chain by disturbing their calculations of their stock portfolio.
As for my last comment, it was perhaps a tad strong. However, I have very little sympathy with people who have forgotten what it was like to be a student and now think that because they wear a nice dark uniform with shiny stripes on the sleeve that all students should keep out of their way, be (occasionally) seen but not heard, and not inconvenience anyone higher up the food chain by disturbing their calculations of their stock portfolio.
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I'm really shocked that the commercial fraternity ( that I am part of) takes this odd arrogant attitude towards this thread. In times gone by when I was instructing I used to let my students make a practice pan and it was very satisfying to see their genuine appreciation of how wonderful the DD service is and that it can really save a##es if they get in difficulty. It gave them that little bit of confidence to move forward in their cross countries etc.
Did all you arrogant s...bags never start at hour zero and have to learn!
Whenever DD was busy, they politely told us to go away and the student then had a graphic demonstration of people using the UK DD for its intended purpose.
I still stay in contact with some of my students and I know that DD has got at least one of them home. Nuf said!
Did all you arrogant s...bags never start at hour zero and have to learn!
Whenever DD was busy, they politely told us to go away and the student then had a graphic demonstration of people using the UK DD for its intended purpose.
I still stay in contact with some of my students and I know that DD has got at least one of them home. Nuf said!
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1. Emergency frequencies are there for one reason: To use in an emergency !!!
2. Every pilot / controller should monitor this frequency whenever possible, it can save your life or someone else life!
Practice pan calls can be done in other ways f.i. On a normal Atc frequency when the frequency is not too busy.
The only place in the world where they do these practices are in England, the rest of the world is not doing it!
This has nothing to do with forgetting how I was trained when I learned to be a pilot, I was never trained to do practice pan calls on an emergency frequency.
2. Every pilot / controller should monitor this frequency whenever possible, it can save your life or someone else life!
Practice pan calls can be done in other ways f.i. On a normal Atc frequency when the frequency is not too busy.
The only place in the world where they do these practices are in England, the rest of the world is not doing it!
This has nothing to do with forgetting how I was trained when I learned to be a pilot, I was never trained to do practice pan calls on an emergency frequency.
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slam dunk, have you actually read the thread?
ATC DO NOT have the DF capability on any other frequency. They generally welcome the practice. If the only thing to happen was "Thank you for your Practice Pan - goodbye" then I would agree. However, there is rather more to it than simply coming out with the correct info on the Pan call.
It is a gross oversimplification to say that "Emergency channels are for emergencies only". Emergency procedures need to be practised. And a significan part of the practice cannot be done on any other frequency. So allow people (ATC and student pilots) to practise them.
ATC DO NOT have the DF capability on any other frequency. They generally welcome the practice. If the only thing to happen was "Thank you for your Practice Pan - goodbye" then I would agree. However, there is rather more to it than simply coming out with the correct info on the Pan call.
It is a gross oversimplification to say that "Emergency channels are for emergencies only". Emergency procedures need to be practised. And a significan part of the practice cannot be done on any other frequency. So allow people (ATC and student pilots) to practise them.
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In a country with congested airspace such as the UK, it is vital that a lost pilot gets help quickly before wandering into controlled airspace and getting in the way of all the lager-lout people-tube drivers on their way to Oybeetha from Lootnairpawt or wherever. Acknowledgment of their predicament and prompt use of the D&D fixer service will achieve this - but pilots need sufficient confidence to use it correctly. For that they need some practice.
Last time a student and I used 121.5 for a Practice Pan, it also assisted West Drayton in locating a duff site.
The inconvenience to others of Practice Pan calls can be minimised by off-air practice first; students WILL still need the odd practice though. The only alternative would be vastly improved LARS in the UK - which is unlikely!
The arrogance of some so-called professionals whining about students practising safety procedures is unbelievable!!
Last time a student and I used 121.5 for a Practice Pan, it also assisted West Drayton in locating a duff site.
The inconvenience to others of Practice Pan calls can be minimised by off-air practice first; students WILL still need the odd practice though. The only alternative would be vastly improved LARS in the UK - which is unlikely!
The arrogance of some so-called professionals whining about students practising safety procedures is unbelievable!!
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Huggy ..."ATC DO NOT have the DF capability on any other frequency." Not true we have the df (qdr/qdm) accurate to plus or minus a few degrees on Tower,Approach Radar,Radar two and 121.5 .So if you want to practise a practice pan you can on all of the frequencies .I can offer general navigation assistance from the df until I can get you identified and then get you home or as near as dammit !!. The thread says that we welcome practice pans ..to an extent this is true HOWEVER if I am up to my ears in stuff it is the LAST thing I want to hear ...maybe for you instructors out there a little call to the tower before hand ?? It is great practice for the guys in radar and helps our trainees.Keeps everyone sharp !!
SLAMDUNK the FIRS in Britain consist of more than ENGLAND!!!!! rant over
SLAMDUNK the FIRS in Britain consist of more than ENGLAND!!!!! rant over
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The points for use of 121.5 for UK training calls are:
1. The UK D&D organisation wish the frequency to be used for practice calls. It proves the auto-triangulation system works on a daily basis and assists them with controller training.
2. The UK pilot training system requires its use for reasons already stated.
3. Trainee pilots gain from its actual use for practice.
4. By hearing others using it each pilot can be sure that a) he has it dialled and that b)his set is working correctly.
Against it?
It annoys some self-centered pilots, but surely far less than a busy in-use frequency.
Seems to me that the attitude of those against its use is similar to the attitude of those who want minor airfields closing on the premise of noise, but still want to travel to their holiday by air i.e. NOT IN MY BACK YARD.
If it annoys or becomes a distraction then why not use the volume switch or temporarily deselect it. Or is that too much trouble?
1. The UK D&D organisation wish the frequency to be used for practice calls. It proves the auto-triangulation system works on a daily basis and assists them with controller training.
2. The UK pilot training system requires its use for reasons already stated.
3. Trainee pilots gain from its actual use for practice.
4. By hearing others using it each pilot can be sure that a) he has it dialled and that b)his set is working correctly.
Against it?
It annoys some self-centered pilots, but surely far less than a busy in-use frequency.
Seems to me that the attitude of those against its use is similar to the attitude of those who want minor airfields closing on the premise of noise, but still want to travel to their holiday by air i.e. NOT IN MY BACK YARD.
If it annoys or becomes a distraction then why not use the volume switch or temporarily deselect it. Or is that too much trouble?
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I have now reread the whole tread. Not one single negative comment about "newbies" or students anywhere. We are discussing the use, or misuse of guard frequencys, thats all. We differ in opinion. Fine.
Maybe we all should read first, and answer later? Preferably with a 10 minute cool-off period in between?
Maybe we all should read first, and answer later? Preferably with a 10 minute cool-off period in between?
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Forgive my ignorance, but who are all you people that listen to guard, and how /why do you have the inclination/time to do it?
The arguments for practice PANs is surely self-evident, training pilots that it works, and operators in making it work, but why why why do people (presumably Airline crews) listen to it.
A call put out on guard anywhere (well, in 99% of Europe above 250' is going to be picked up by a ground agency or five. I can see the point in Canada/Africa/ocean routes, but Europe?
Frankly I cant believe anyone has the time/spare capacity to do this in Europe, or is this a contributory factor in all those missed RT calls?
For info in nearly 3000 hrs of airline flying in 4 companies I have never seen or heard of anyone doing this, hence my surprise. (apart from the surprise that any prof pilot would object to a stude being trained in safety procedures)
[This message has been edited by piston broke (edited 13 April 2001).]
The arguments for practice PANs is surely self-evident, training pilots that it works, and operators in making it work, but why why why do people (presumably Airline crews) listen to it.
A call put out on guard anywhere (well, in 99% of Europe above 250' is going to be picked up by a ground agency or five. I can see the point in Canada/Africa/ocean routes, but Europe?
Frankly I cant believe anyone has the time/spare capacity to do this in Europe, or is this a contributory factor in all those missed RT calls?
For info in nearly 3000 hrs of airline flying in 4 companies I have never seen or heard of anyone doing this, hence my surprise. (apart from the surprise that any prof pilot would object to a stude being trained in safety procedures)
[This message has been edited by piston broke (edited 13 April 2001).]
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Piston Broke
How many of your five ground agencies are going to pick up a signal from somebody down in a valley in a mountainous area, eg Alps, Scottish Highlands, or in a Mae West in the Bay of Biscay, Mediterranean etc? You must have worked for some pretty callous companies and/or flown with some callous individuals where guarding 121.5 on Box 2 is not SOP over such areas. Satellites will probably pick up such signals eventually, but only on the next pass over the area, which might be too late. Having made, heard and relayed several 121.5 signals in my career so far, perhaps I can vouch for how important it can be.
How many of your five ground agencies are going to pick up a signal from somebody down in a valley in a mountainous area, eg Alps, Scottish Highlands, or in a Mae West in the Bay of Biscay, Mediterranean etc? You must have worked for some pretty callous companies and/or flown with some callous individuals where guarding 121.5 on Box 2 is not SOP over such areas. Satellites will probably pick up such signals eventually, but only on the next pass over the area, which might be too late. Having made, heard and relayed several 121.5 signals in my career so far, perhaps I can vouch for how important it can be.
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Scando, I agree with you. We all just have a different opinion about the use of “guard” frequencies.
I think this is a healthy discussion, and I would like to sum up some conclusions.
Maybe my first input to this thread was a bit too offending, I’m sorry if I stepped on somebody’s toes.
1. We all agree it’s good airmanship to monitor 121,5/243,0 whenever possible.
2. If these guard frequencies are too much “misused” people switch them off or turn the volume down (and forget to switch them “on” again)
3. It is possible to do DF on “normal” ATC frequencies (see gul dukat’s posting)
Question:
If you train a student a procedure “What to do when you get lost” is it necessary to use a guard frequency in this procedure?
By the way : I am an airline pilot and an instructor pilot on small aircraft.
I think this is a healthy discussion, and I would like to sum up some conclusions.
Maybe my first input to this thread was a bit too offending, I’m sorry if I stepped on somebody’s toes.
1. We all agree it’s good airmanship to monitor 121,5/243,0 whenever possible.
2. If these guard frequencies are too much “misused” people switch them off or turn the volume down (and forget to switch them “on” again)
3. It is possible to do DF on “normal” ATC frequencies (see gul dukat’s posting)
Question:
If you train a student a procedure “What to do when you get lost” is it necessary to use a guard frequency in this procedure?
By the way : I am an airline pilot and an instructor pilot on small aircraft.
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Gul - sorry, I over-simplified. Of course you have DF on many frequencies.
However, many units are not so blessed as yours. Furthermore, I am prepared to bet a month's pay that you cannot triangulate on ANY of your frequencies.
One of the main reasons for permitting Practice Pans, as has been stated time and agin, is to allow the guys at D&D to practice as well.
If people find it's too tiring having to listen to it, then I have lots and lots of sympathy. However, they are far better kept on 121.5 (forget 243 - not many C152's are UHF-equipped) than on a busy APP frequency.
However, many units are not so blessed as yours. Furthermore, I am prepared to bet a month's pay that you cannot triangulate on ANY of your frequencies.
One of the main reasons for permitting Practice Pans, as has been stated time and agin, is to allow the guys at D&D to practice as well.
If people find it's too tiring having to listen to it, then I have lots and lots of sympathy. However, they are far better kept on 121.5 (forget 243 - not many C152's are UHF-equipped) than on a busy APP frequency.
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During my RT training, the RT instructor - active ATCO, advised to make the initial distress/urgency call on the active frequency, as someone was more likely to hear it, especially here in the UK.
He also pointed out, that D&D do actively encourage practice pan calls on 121.5 so they can check that the fixing kit works and use it for training. There was also an excellent article in Pilot magazine last year about this very subject.
He also pointed out, that D&D do actively encourage practice pan calls on 121.5 so they can check that the fixing kit works and use it for training. There was also an excellent article in Pilot magazine last year about this very subject.
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excrewingbod:
In some parts of the UK (Up here in Scotland where there are fewer airfields and plenty of obstructions to line-of-sight), D&D does have its limitations at low/GA altitudes.
The main reason I was given for making calls on the current frequency is that you are already talking to someone, hopefully they have you on radar and can advise you better and certainly the last thing you want to od is change something you don't need to and end up not being able to talk to anyone :-)
If you can't raise anyone or if you are talking to a "roger, out" FIS, you may be better off switching to 121.5 if you are temporarily uncertain of your position :-)
In some parts of the UK (Up here in Scotland where there are fewer airfields and plenty of obstructions to line-of-sight), D&D does have its limitations at low/GA altitudes.
The main reason I was given for making calls on the current frequency is that you are already talking to someone, hopefully they have you on radar and can advise you better and certainly the last thing you want to od is change something you don't need to and end up not being able to talk to anyone :-)
If you can't raise anyone or if you are talking to a "roger, out" FIS, you may be better off switching to 121.5 if you are temporarily uncertain of your position :-)
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For the UK, I really don't know why you're listening out guys. If I'm in a little plane - which I hope to be this weekend - I don't calculate on you entering the scene so don't listen on my behalf.
I want someone to know exactly where I am an d to be able to guide me to a field in the event of a problem. Most likely I've gone IMC without radio aids or with some radio aid problem.
Or my engine just went bang and I'm over the Peak district. My needs are not information and support but an ambulance and a fire engine.
I want someone to know exactly where I am an d to be able to guide me to a field in the event of a problem. Most likely I've gone IMC without radio aids or with some radio aid problem.
Or my engine just went bang and I'm over the Peak district. My needs are not information and support but an ambulance and a fire engine.
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Pistonbroke, I cant understand how you regard monitoring Guard (what should be a quiet freq if it wern't for all the practice PAN calls out there) as requiring 'spare capacity' Come on, it's not that hard. The freq should only be used for real problems. I monitor it all the time, and have heard a number of real calls, long before the ground agencies have picked them up.
D&D could surely oranise a dedicated test aircraft to ensure they get appropriate training couldn't they?
As for all all the comments about getting lost and needing the service - simple answer- more nav training to ensure the chance of getting lost in the first place is remote! Who are all these pilots flying around and not knowing where they are anyway?
"twisted.." made an interesting comment, and perhaps I missed something in my training, but going IMC without the appropriate radio aids then needing ATC help to get out of it? I always thought you checked the Wx BEFORE flying, and made a sound airmanship "D" as to whether ot not you and yor A/C were fully equipted to go flying in such conditions.
Leave 121.5 for real problems, not practice ones.
Deep blue ocean, calm blue sea...
D&D could surely oranise a dedicated test aircraft to ensure they get appropriate training couldn't they?
As for all all the comments about getting lost and needing the service - simple answer- more nav training to ensure the chance of getting lost in the first place is remote! Who are all these pilots flying around and not knowing where they are anyway?
"twisted.." made an interesting comment, and perhaps I missed something in my training, but going IMC without the appropriate radio aids then needing ATC help to get out of it? I always thought you checked the Wx BEFORE flying, and made a sound airmanship "D" as to whether ot not you and yor A/C were fully equipted to go flying in such conditions.
Leave 121.5 for real problems, not practice ones.
Deep blue ocean, calm blue sea...
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This is a real Mayday.
Light aircraft (say PA28) flying at night from Ireland to Southern England. Approaching English coast the pilot is disturbed by the low readings on both fuel gauges. To satisfy himself this is an error he switches to the emptier tank. Shortly the engine dies. He switches to the other tank. Not many minutes to go now.
Mayday Mayday Mayday.
Unbeknown to him a baffle has moved in the silencer and fuel consumption has doubled.
D&D don't seem to do much. They simply tell him who is open (say Valley), freqencies, direction miles-to-go, and make all the necessary arrangements. OK he or others should have been able to do the same things. But this is an emergency and every second is precious. The professionals are fast, accurate and don't waste a single syllable of airtime. They know the pilot is under deadly pressure and fighting to save lives.
They all make it with not a moment to spare.
If this sort of thing requires a bit of practice pan. I think it's worth it.
Light aircraft (say PA28) flying at night from Ireland to Southern England. Approaching English coast the pilot is disturbed by the low readings on both fuel gauges. To satisfy himself this is an error he switches to the emptier tank. Shortly the engine dies. He switches to the other tank. Not many minutes to go now.
Mayday Mayday Mayday.
Unbeknown to him a baffle has moved in the silencer and fuel consumption has doubled.
D&D don't seem to do much. They simply tell him who is open (say Valley), freqencies, direction miles-to-go, and make all the necessary arrangements. OK he or others should have been able to do the same things. But this is an emergency and every second is precious. The professionals are fast, accurate and don't waste a single syllable of airtime. They know the pilot is under deadly pressure and fighting to save lives.
They all make it with not a moment to spare.
If this sort of thing requires a bit of practice pan. I think it's worth it.