RYANAIR.......WHY SO FAST!! (Seemingly)
 

An observation if I may..........

Having just returned from honeymoon (Howth) Dublin, I was amazed when my wife happened to comment that she thought the Ryanair 73's seem to be flying very fast when compared to EI and other airlines on the same approach into Dublin.

As local guys will know, Howth is on the approach into Dub RWY 28. In respect of this, are Ryanair drivers exceeding their speed limits here? As a point of interest, when we arrived at Dub, one of our Pilot's, presumably the Skipper actually shutdown both engines, as we rolled towards the gate........Safe practice, ummmmmm???!!!

Before we left, we watched a few buses landing on 28. Again, even my wife commented that the Ryanair 73's were taxing at ridiculous speeds!!!

Even on our return, I clocked a very young looking F/O performing a walk around on another departing flight. Suffice to say, it was laughable, it took him all of 1.5 mins!!! He didn't even look up to check the control surfaces, he kicked the front tyre, not even looking inside the gear bays, and just tapped the port engine cowling, let alone checking the starboard engine.......However, I can report that the F/O our return flight was far more thorough, and just as well!! Now forgive me, but complacency may cost nothing, but lives do.

At the end of the day, surely it's better to get somewhere late, than never!!.................

Please slow down guys, forget what the management targets are about and the demands these put on you all and get back to the safe and professional practices that you were trained in from day one.

Cheers & all the best.
C.N. (& his wife LOL!) :ok:

I know for a fact Ryanair fly very fast approaches into DUB. I operate into there occasionally from LGW, and on one occasion we had a line up clearance cancelled after the ATCO reported an aircraft at 13 miles out doing 300 knots! We waited, and sure enough a Ryanair 737 came into view on the approach.

I believe a lot of their guys manange the energy differently on the approach, in that they dive off the height, get down to say 3000 feet, and then lose the speed when level before intercepting the glide. Fair enough I guess providing its safe, but the risk of a rushed approach is a lot higher.

Fast... to do security check during turnaround
 

Capt. Numpty,

same comment about turnaround time. We saw a Ryanair 737-800 in front of us arriving on stand. Passengers got off in a few minutes. Then I saw a Cabin Crew sitting on her crew seat through the left foward door for 2 or 3 minutes after the last pax got off.

Then the boarding started... So in 2 or 3 minutes, the crew completed a cabin security check and cleaned the aircraft, for all the 180 seats!!! And that with one of them sitting on her crew seat !!!
;) :) :ok:

Pretty good, I thought...

MOL keeps on boasting himself on his on time performance compared to other operators, but is it really safe?

I was in STN following a Ryanair aircraft after landing. My company is very strict about taxi speed. And we saw the Ryanair aircraft "disappearing" in the horizon... Before we arrived on stand.

Do they get bonuses if they are on time or what? I would be interested to know... That could explain a few things...

Dear God, don't you people ever get tired of going over and over the same half-informed/ill-informed claptrap?

This subject has already been done to death a dozen times on pprune.

one could always take a train ...... no one ever complains about slow trains !!!!!! ......

I some times think Danny must have a "heart of gold" and the "patience of a saint" !!!!

cheers .... hobie

JW411......

Comment all noted, however if this is so boring to you......why are you reading it, let alone making a sarcy posting!!

FYI, my wife is not a Pilot, and she is the one who happened to notice this.......Doesn't that say something about what members of the public/ spectators are seeing???

C.N. :*

Yes.

No.

People have sometimes alleged that RyanAir taxy speeds are a bit quick.

But have you ever been in a Eurowings ATR72 'taxying' from the easternmost parking slot at Frankfurt to the southerly runway.....? Unbelievable!!

Err, that's real Frankfurt, Mo'L, not that place in the Mosel.

Sorry Danny ;)

Ryanair do have an enviable safety record though.

WWW

Capt Numpty
 

Your profile says you are a pilot....
a pilot of what??? no ratings???
If you knew anything of flying you would know that aircraft on an approach are speed restricted generally for spacing.
Also from the ground to the un trained eye the aircraft may look faster than you think and as you say "your wife is not a pilot" so she wouldn't have a trained eye in relation to aircraft.

Taxi speeds yes perhaps a bit fast but then again the air traffic ground controller would definately advise any aircraft taxiing at a high speed that would seem to be dangerous.....again the trained eye....sitting in the back of a B737 looking out the side window it may look fast...but what was their actual speed??
Were you jump seating to observe...

Shutting down one engine taxiing in.....well in the US it is very common to see aircraft taxiing out to the holding point and in to the gate on just 1 engine to conserve fuel.
Just how far were you from the blocks position when the captain shut down the second...again a view from the side window doesn't tell you much.

Now on to the age of pilots.....well some may look very young but they will have passed all the necessary requirements set down by the department i.e. the IAA and have to pass tests every so often and are subject to ramp checks too.......but being a pilot yourself im sure you knew that already!!!
As for a walk around....well most pilots will do a light walkaround because the aircraft engineers will have already checked the required areas.....it is they who sign the Tech log book which is counter signed by the Captain....but then again being a pilot you knew that already!!!

You just have a grudge against FR it seems perhaps they lost your bags on you???
This is a rubbish post from you anyways......why did i reply well i just wanted you to read what REALLY goes on in the REAL world...but then again being a PILOT you knew that already!!!!
Go back to your anorak
:cool: ;) :cool:

Taff, Air New Zealand had an enviable safety record until Mt Erebus, as did the Titanic until she was driven at full speed into an iceberg...

And Stargazer. "Light walkround" What the hell is that???????? Never heard of it in 20 yrs flying. Failure to do a proper walkround is a hanging offence in any aviation circle I've ever been in, so I hate to think where you got that one from.

Engineers sign your tech log? Maybe they do sign for the walkround if you are lucky enough to have engineers to do that at every stop, but they sure as hell don't sign acceptance for the airplane, again I've never heard of anyone accepting without one or other of the pilots doing their own. if you don't get engineers every stop (as in my Co) then do you have two different walkrounds? One proper one, and one token one, sorry, "Lite" walkround when you trust someone else has done your life-saver for you? Do you say to the FO, "Oh, Bloggs, do us a Walkround Lite please?".

FR taxi high speed? We all know it is a company characteristic. Anywhere they operate people point them out as they hurtle past on a regular basis. Maybe they are on "on time" bonus. If so its a bloody risky policy. I'd hate to see their lawyers try to wriggle out of the subsequent lawsuit in the event of a taxy accident if that is the case.
I frequently watch them on approach at a major UK field, and it is plain to see on almost every approach that FR deploy gear and flaps 15 at least a mile beyond where every other 737 does. That is not imagined. Go sit abeam 4 mile finals somewhere for an hour or so and watch it happen. It is NOT a myth.

Shutting down both and coasting onto a stand? I'd have thought that a gross breach of good airmanship and a hanging offence too even in a flying club environment. To do it in a public transport aeroplane seems unbelieveable. Again, maybe I've led a sheltered life in Europe, but I've never heard of taxiing out on one engine "to save fuel". Shutting one down on the way in has been mooted on occasion but again I've never actually seen or heard it done. Why? Save a 3 litres of gas perhaps?

As you said, Stargazer, there is the real world that incorporates Professionalism and good airmanship and there is an environment infested with cowboys. Which one do you aspire to?

Given FRA's shorthaul high density sectors I think it likely that they have already well outstripped Air NZ's take off and landing tally and thus arguably have a better safety record - if thats how you choose to measure it and many do.

The Titanic has the worst safety record of any man made mass transportation device.

So I don't see your point. I'm no great fan of Ryanair but I think it unfair when people hurl safety related criticism at them when they have a damn fine safety record built over a lot of busy sectors, through busy airspace to sometimes minimal facility destinations.

Anyway, I always thought it was going too slowly in aeroplanes that was dangerous...?!

WWW

No mate, nothing wrong with the Titanic as a mass transportation system at all. She was a ship, one of the safest systems we have, and a fine one at that.

One individual incident does not indicate much, if anything about safety, any more than a lack of incidents does. She was far, far safer than any before her and was as unsinkable as the technology of the day could make her. Even by todays standards she was proof against all but the most extreme of circunstances, yet fate took charge as we all know. The failure in the Titanic case was human, operational. The Captain drove her at an utterly irresponsible speed for the prevailing conditions,lifeboat drills were virtually ignored and design re insufficient lifeboats contributed also. Nothing wrong with the ship, any more tan the DC10 wa at fault at Mt Erebus. It wa the sloppy procedures in the company that caused the crash. Was Air NZ "safe" before the accident, and "unsafe" afterwards? Hell no! The procedures made the operation inherently more hazardous than it needeed to have been.

If a company encourages ot ignores high speed taxying then it clearly exposes itself to more risk than one that does not. Do they/don't they? Use your eyes. The answer is plain to all.

Fast approaches? Just go sit abeam 4 mile finals and watch where different coloured 737s configure gear and flap 15. What you'll see is pretty clear, from my experience of observation. There is one colour combination that does it a mile closer to the field than everyone else. Who do you reckon they are?

Does anyone have a view about the rights or wrongs of using short bursts of reverse thrust as a braking device while taxi-ing and even coming to a stop on the ramp ? I have seen this from on board a Ryanair 737-200 at Stansted (but only once, a few years back). I am myself neither particularly for nor against Ryanair.

As for the Titanic, it was indeed a pretty safe vessel for its day, or should have been. It sank due to a whole range of human factors shortcomings, of the sort that usually lead to major air disasters. The primary ones were the decision not to have enough lifeboats and a certain human pride in trying to make a faster than planned crossing. The old Swiss cheese theory.

Frs coming into EGGP had to be warned to slow down on taxi as we were sick of scraping the rubber off the 27 ret
Seems to have done the trick as its very rare to see a speeding Ryanair these days

Stargazer

Your comments, some of which I found to be sarcastic and offensive are duly noted.

With regards to my personnel details, they are exactly that! I have no need to share these here, or particularly with folk like you. However, for the avoidance of any doubt, and to enlighten YOU a little further, I am currently on the B-777, and have held various ratings on other types too........However, lets not forget my friend that size doesn't matter, or does it to you?????

"BIG THINGS START SMALL" little boy.

Anyway, get a life wannabe, as me thinks you are possibly just a FR driver (with an attitude to add) who is probably p.o.'d with the industry constantly having a go?? As I mentioned it was just an observation and nothing more than that.


Suffice to say, no offense intended, goodnight.

C.N.

This entire threat is totally laughable. And when people start to write and compare the Titanic with Ryanair and even state that the Titanic was a safe mass transportation device (disregarding any scientific findings about used steel quality, design faults, lack of life rafts, etc...) it makes me real wonder.... :yuk:

JW411 sumarized it all.

This whole post is laughable.Any excuse to bash Ryanair! Listen people...facts- our safety record is perfect.Nobody can question that.Our procedure's are proper and within all the legal regulations.The pilot's are proffesional and do their job properly.Oh,I nearly forgot to say,our engineering is top class!!

What is all this b/s about putting the gear down 1 mile later than everybody else? For what advantage? Do you honestly believe the approach speeds flown by RYR are so tight that it would require this,consistently,every flight? Don't you all see that the RYR pilots are trained in exactly the same manner as pilot's of other airlines and hold the same licences and qualifications and operate to the same/similar company procedure's?

As for the fella saying that his flight needed reverse thrust in order to stop during the taxi! You don't know what you are talking about.You obviously have absolutely no idea so why comment on something when you are clearly not in the position to do so? Anyone that has taxied a -200 will tell you how effective the wheel brakes are.I must admit I have only taxied empty aircraft but let me tell you that if you operate the brakes with anything more than a gentle push with the toes then the thing will stop immediatly.Just how effective do you think reverse thrust would be at a ground speed of 20-30 knots with the engine at idle?
Could it not have been that the crew were cycling the reverser on the taxi-in to check an inication fault or something?

This is a question,yes,I have seen the crew shut down the engines 10ft or so before the stop bar and coast to a stop but why would this be such a henious crime? I can think of no reason and would be interested to see if there is one.To my mind,the APU would obviously be running so no probs with electrical power so elec hyd pumps are working for brake pressure [ignoring the accumulator],packs still supplied by APU air,obviously no more requirement for forward thrust so what possible purpose is there for having the engines running? Would like to hear any reason's I have overlooked.

As for the Titanic....0% despatch reliability me thinks,well OK 100% despatch reliability but 0% arrival reliability:)

Captain Numpty:

I find it quite amazing that a pilot rated on a 777 was unable to explain to his wife that the speed at which aircraft fly the approach to runway 28 at Dublin past Howth is in fact regulated by Dublin ATC and not by Ryanair.

I have lost count of the number of times that I have been sent down to 2000 ft and asked by Dublin ATC to maintain high speed as long as possible on this approach. It is not a problem. They are in charge of the spacing and as long as it is safe, I am happy to oblige.

I have said this before but I'm going to say it again. Can you or your wife put your hands on your hearts and swear that you have never exceeded 30 mph when driving in a 30 mph speed limit? As far as I am aware, Ryanair have never injured or killed a single person whilst taxying. On the other hand, people just like you and me kill hundreds of pedestrians every year. Do I detect a whiff of hypocrisy?

In my company we do a comprehensive walkround before the first flight. On subsequent quick turnarounds the manufacturers and the company deem it sufficient to look at the engines, brakes, wheels and tyres and check for obvious leaks and airframe damage.

Finally, I am surprised that you, as a 777 driver would even consider taking your dearly beloved on honeymoon by Ryanair. Don't you get paid? In any event you certainly know how to show a young lady a good time!

What is the Problem with fast taxiing ?

Common in the states, so long as corners are taken at the appropriate speed.

High speed turnoffs are allowed at 45 knts.

Aircraft land and take-off in straight lines up to 150 knts, and some are even permitted to land in crosswinds , not aligned with the runway centerline.

Remember fast walking pace, or was that for tiger moth.

Sorry stargazer, but things must be very different on your side of the pond. Whilst I am not qualified to talk of piloting things I have to raise an eyebrow or two at some of your comments. But when it comes to ATC, then I'm in my element.

There are few rules about taxi speed - I suspect professionalism is usually sufficient to ensure that taxi speeds are kept appropriate to the situation (and that means for all aircraft in the area). Although controllers may think to themselves 'that looks a bit fast', in most cases they will not intervene unless there is some immediate danger.

Your attitude seems to be 'I'll see what I can get away with and if it's a bit dangerous someone will tell me'.

Like I say, things seem different on your side of the pond ... and not for the better.

:cool: yes ryanair a/c taxi at very high speeds far in excess of what they are supposed i see it reguarly from the twr we don't mind ,yes they fly fast app's and sometimes it helps i have never seen a fr pilot go around for that reason ,and yes i have heard of a/c who taxi with one engine off have seen on some aerodrome plates the ref:747 a/c taxi only with engines 2+3 running due jet blast.surely with the apu on its providing hydraulic and electrical power i.e. brakes to stop before the end of the stand.and yes i have seen fr pilots use reverse on taxiways it's kicked up a lot of dust from w.i.p. and we have commented.:ok:

Sadly it is catching on. Walked down the steps on the jetbridge on A14L at EGSS this week, and saw a Buzz 146 "ID" blast past in the blink of an eyelid. Oh thats right, Buzz are now part of Ryanair arent they.

<<<
As for the fella saying that his flight needed reverse thrust in order to stop during the taxi! You don't know what you are talking about.You obviously have absolutely no idea so why comment on something when you are clearly not in the position to do so? Anyone that has taxied a -200 will tell you how effective the wheel brakes are.I must admit I have only taxied empty aircraft but let me tell you that if you operate the brakes with anything more than a gentle push with the toes then the thing will stop immediatly.Just how effective do you think reverse thrust would be at a ground speed of 20-30 knots with the engine at idle?
Could it not have been that the crew were cycling the reverser on the taxi-in to check an inication fault or something?
>>>

Oh, God, I'm so sorry. I merely asked a polite question, which you finally got around to answering at the end (yes, this sounds plausible), after burying me in the previous paragraph.

Too true GCC there seems to be a tendancy to shoot then answer questions later as if in some sanctimonious, points scoring exercise.

It would be nice to just get a few merely expalantory answers occasionally.

So how much extra are they spending on tyres and brakes? Or is that where the reversers come in?

GCC,
Many moons ago, I watched a BOAC VC10 stop on stand by using reverse thrust:ok: . Granted, the taxyway and stand hadn't been de-iced properly, but it HAS happened . i was there.
Aviation is a funny business in more ways than one:D
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

Quoting from the 737 ( which Ryanair operate ) FCTM, page 2.5, 737-600 - 737-900, 'normal taxy speed is 20kts, adjusted for conditions. On long straight taxi routes, speeds up to 30 kts are acceptable, however at speeds greater than 20 kts use rudder pedal steering only. When approaching a turn, speed should be slowed to an appropriate speed for conditions. On a dry surface, use approximately 10 kts'.

This is straight from Boeing, 30kts on the emergency runway at LGW can feel quite slow, but on a narrower taxyway quite fast.

Reverse thrust, again I quote, 'During taxy.... the use of reverse thrust above reverse idle is not recommended due to the possibility of FOD.... Idle reverse thrust may be necessary on slippery surfaces to control speed while taxying'.

but that is the radar controllers "mistake". Surely soemthing like "Speed 180kts or less" from 20 miles would have helped you get airborne!

don't they use speed control in DUB? or maybe the Approach guys like stitching up there tower controllers!!!

FWIW, I too have seen Ryanair shut both engines down while taxying in.

Eng123 asked if it was a henious (heinous?) crime to do this, well it isn't the safest way to operate an aircraft. At least with an engine running you have a hydraulic pump backing up the accumulator.

Petrolhead

We could do an abbreviated walk-round and ignore the buffeting and stresses of the last sector as a possible cause of making things come loose. Most of us could even arrive on stand with the walk round completed before the engines had stopped. We could ignore every bit of airmanship that we had learned over the last 40 years in the name of profit. I'm not pointing at any particular operator, but to say that it doesn't happen is the ultimate in denial. To say that some pilots, often at home base, are not encouraged to keep the pedal to the metal by ATC till one inch from touchdown is perhaps the penultimate in denial.

There is a very fine line between a good company man - nifty pilot - fine handler of planes.......and a jockey.

I am a 737 Capt. at Southwest here on the other side of the pond. After reading this and returning from europe last week, it would seem that the Ryan Air bashing over there is reaching the same proportions that the Southwest bashing was here not too long ago. Yes, maybe we do things a little differently, so what...Sour grapes anyone? Remember all you at Ryan: Success is the ultimate revenge.

Viking,

Easy does it, eh? I ADORE Southwest, but the smug "so what" and "Success is the ultimate revenge" just opens the door to pointing out specific events where doing things "differently" at Southwest led to some unpleasantness. Because I'm assuming you are who you say you are, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and simply suggest that you not present you and your employer as such a tempting target on this forum...

Dave

It would be wise for any airline to learn the lessons of going too fast ... Southwest (and the two pilots) found out to their cost not too long ago, remember ??

Excessive airspeed and flight path angle caused crash

http://a.abcnews.com/media/Travel/im...ane_0803_n.jpg

http://a.abcnews.com/media/US/images...d_000306_a.jpg

Agaricus bisporus


A MILE closer?
That's like 20 seconds late, at what, 1500'?
That's hardly a major sin.

PPRuNe Radar

How many beers did you have before your posting? To give Joe Public the impression that when a 737 drops the gear 1 mile later on maybe a beautiful day (To all: no big deal, happens probably on every 5th approach worldwide) to safe some fuel it could maybe cause something like the SW accident, it is another story... :* Ah, why am I wasting my time here, it won't help a thing. The next Ryainair does these, Ryainair does that thread comes up anyway.

Petrolhead,
Even with the engines shut down there is still hyd pressure available for braking from the electric pumps.I still can't think of any unsafe consequence of shutting down engines and coasting to a stop.

GCC,
I'm sorry if I sounded offensive to you.I don't mean any personal offence to yourself but I find topics that continually bash RYR irritating in the extreme and can't help myself defending the airline for whom I work and together with my colleagues operate in the most proffesional manner possible.

Burger Thing

Please read posts carefully before posting. Read what is said and not make assumptions or links which are not there.

It was a generic warning to all operators that excess speed can have consequences when it all goes wrong. Or did the FAA and some clever journo with Photoshop just make the whole thing up ???

The big big clue was the phrase ''any airline''. The fact you read it to mean specifically (i) Ryanair and specifically (ii) the incident raised by the poster, is your problem, not mine. I have flown them many a time and work them every day at work. I don't have a safety concern with them. Therefore I have not cast an aspersion on them, but merely ask everyone in the industry to learn the lessons of SWA.

Complacency (i.e look at our safety record, we're the greatest) and smugness (i.e. we're different so we must be the best) are dangerous attitudes for any airline to have when it comes to air safety. Fortunately it's not a culture I've met in airline Flight Safety officers, just the occasional wet behind the ears junior FOs.

Also, there was no reference in my post to dropping the gear late causing the SWA accident, least not that I could see. :hmm: So put your toys back in the pram.

Now, shuffle off to the bar, it's your round ;)

--like I said, when there's a tempting target...

However I WAS trying to be subtle... :eek:

Sorry!
I realize I came across looking quite smug. I know we've made our mistakes. My point was that there seems to an institutional arrogance at the big airlines, that their way is the best and only way to do things. When something new and different comes along the tendency is to criticize, and what better way to get a pilots goat, than to call him unsafe. The fact is that we all really don't know much about how things are done at other airlines and why.:O