Viking

I'll throw my hat in the ring and pledge that SWA are not unsafe either.

Unsafe airlines are characterised by trends, and in trend terms both Ryanair and SWA's safety records are up with the best.

I guess I was just trying to highlight that even if you think you are the best then a series of circumstances or unsafe actions by individuals (which you can't legislate for) can soon bring it all crashing down around you.

And yes, even Ryanair have safety incidents which get reported and investigated. And show that they and their crews are not immune to doing things wrong.

The important thing is that the management recognise that such things happen and take as much action as possible to mitigate against it. Be it through SOPs, company culture, or whatever.

I have faith that both SWA and Ryanair do take safety seriously. However I don't think that they are in any way in a cast iron position to not have an accident in the future. I would rate it as remote, but not impossible as some of the more staunch supporters of the airline would have us believe.

Safety is NO accident.

Long may both airlines prosper. They give the public a service niche which they want, and employ a lot of people in this industry of ours.

PS I still think as a person that MOL is a :mad: and wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire :)

Somebody earlier brought up the Titanic as an analogy, and others have said that Ryanair has an impressive safety record. Some words to consider...


Captain Edward J Smith, RMS TITANIC


Time will tell.

Going back to the shutting down engines thing...
 

Shutting down both engines as you trundle the last few feet on to the stand can't be a good idea. It's a bit pointless for fuel savings, and distracts you from the all important task of not hitting other vehicles on the apron, and indeed, the terminal building itself - that would be mighty embarrassing!

Nothing wrong with shutting one down on the taxi in IMHO, so long as the aircraft is light enough to get around on one/two/three (delete as ap't!) without blasting half of the ramp away. Saves fuel, noise, brakes. Seems like good airmanship to me, but does anyone else think differently?

We had a new hire Captain that thought it was cool to shut down both engines approaching the ramp, he's not longer employed by us.

The second part of your comment regarding single engine taxi is generally how its done by the majors.:D

There have been a few occasions when I ended up stopping short and needed a bit of power to roll those last couple of feet...I suspect I would have felt a lot more embarassed if I had already shut the engines down.
Regarding taxiing with asymmetric power, I would imagine in the long run you would have undesirable stress on the nose gear.

PPRuNe Radar My appologies. Maybe I was a bit harsh, Sorry, but I was really getting upset about all this Against-Ryainair-Nonsense. Some individuls are really trying to black-paint this particular airline for whatsoever reason. I find that a little bit sad, especially as in difficult times of our industry as these days. :suspect:

jw411
 

I agree with you on Capt Numpty statement being a so called B777 driver.
The fact that he hasn't responded and even put this up in the first place speaks volumes.

Aircraft in the US do taxi on 1 or 2 ( if a 3 engine acft) to the holding point. Whenyou have a long taxi time & distance it is very common to see engines been started as an aircraft is number 2 or 3 to go. In places like KATL it can be very common to be nbr 28 in line for take off so i stand by my point...you can burn alot of fuel waiting for 30mins odd to go.

No im not a cowboy i take a professional pride in my career
but Capt Numpty is exactly what is says he is "A Numpty"
If he really was a B777 captain he wouldn't even be bringing this subject up...just another Ryan Air bashing.

A light walk around = a quick one and no i didn't get the engineers to do it for me when i was in UAL but they also did a check of the aircraft too and signed the Tech log off as well as me just like i said before....
Some people read what they want and then proceed to put their 2 size 12's in to the middle of it...


As stated above this is a pointless thread ....

Eng123

<<<
GCC,
I'm sorry if I sounded offensive to you.I don't mean any personal offence to yourself but I find topics that continually bash RYR irritating in the extreme and can't help myself defending the airline for whom I work and together with my colleagues operate in the most proffesional manner possible.
>>>

That's fine, enough said. Others may bash Ryanair, but I haven't. In fact, I quite admire the company and its achievements, even if its commercial approach is a bit on the 'raw' side. As others point out, you know what you are buying with a Ryanair ticket. And, for avoidance of doubt, that's meant from the point of view of passenger support and convenience, not from the safety point of view. It's to try to understand the safety point of view better that I come to a website like this in the first place, and even ask the occasional question. Overall, I think most people without any axe to grind can intelligently balance the competing views and conclude that a) while nothing is perfect, and b) lack of any prior serious incident to date means something but only so much, Ryanair is a fundamentally safe operation.

If we are slagging off Ryanair, can I join in?

I think the management are a bunch of t*ssers for refusing to accept UK military ID..... while accepting Student ID cards!:confused:

Carrying on from what my ATC colleagues have already said, I feel I have to point out that Ryanair's "expeditious" taxiing can help us all out, and you don't hear too many complaints then! How many times have you seen a Ryanair crew dawdle on a backtrack, miss the turnoff or cruise into the apron when asked to expedite. Not many complaints when you're No.2 to the Ryanair!!

Their crews do tend to be quick on the approach, but as stated above, it is really a failing of ATC not to have applied some speed control if that's going to present a problem. In most cases (at our unit anyway) you can rely on them to close up a gap if you need them to, or slow down if you need them to - simple as that!

That said, I've only twice ever flown as a punter with FR, and don't plan to do it again in the near future! Sorry guys, but it was a bit too much like a school trip - I'm a bit old for that these days.

stargazer02:

As you say, Captain Numpty is as likely to have a 777 rating as I am to be the next Archbishop of Canterbury.

Incidentally, my own record was joining the JFK congo line one particularly foul winter's night as No.54 (it went up to No.78 at one point).

We were on the ground for over four hours before take-off and I was only using the centre engine and the APU.

I do remember an old piece of folklore about an AA DC-10 crew who were using the wing engines in such a situation and forgot to start No.2 before take-off! They apparently survived this interesting experience.

What a shame that this post has apparently become a personal Sh1t throwing exercise!! Albeit, I am delighted to see it has rallied some considerable interest.

Whilst I note what my fellow colleagues Stargazer & JW411 have to say about me, I do not feel there is anymore to be gained by having to justify my position & ratings with individuals such as these.

However, I am warmed by the some of the other comments and observations made here by other colleagues within our industry, who, seemingly support the jist of the original post/ comments made.......

Thanks guys, for we can't ALL be wrong can we !?!?

Cheers
C.N. :ok:

Captain Numpty

No probably not. Which is the primary reason why my family and I stopped flying with Ryanair.

I am not a pilot, nor am I expert when it comes to matters aviation but what I do know is that the last time I flew with Ryanair they scared the life out of me. Which is something that Buzz, BA, Sabena, Lufthansa and a host of other airlines have never managed to do, despite some pretty rough trips over the years.

I have been accused of Ryanair bashing before, (as it seems is anybody who dares to ask a simple question about them), so I am not going to dwell on the subject for too long. However, my gut feeling is that there is no smoke without fire.

Perhaps I am wrong, but I would rather not take the risk.

spitoon
 

i can't see from my post where you think i have the attitude of " we'll get away with taxiing fast if we can"
i merely pointed out that if the aircraft were deemed to be taxiing too fast that ATC or the airport management unit would advise the crew but that from the side of the plane looking out to the untrained eye it can look alot faster than it actually was.
Since the NUMPTY wasn't jump seating and merely observing then he wasn't able to comment on the actual speed.

Finally Capt Numpty.....you say that you are sad this has become a sh it throwing contest......
Well he who stirrs Sh it as you do......get's splashed by it....as you were....
You really are a numpty....if you ever go to Scotland ask the folks there the meaning of your name and you will realise just what a NUMPTY you really are.....
Good luck in your BIG B777 ( if you really have one...perhaps a model one)...next time im crusing at FL450 ill say hello and dump the lav on ya.:cool:
I don't care what types people fly but really your attitude is just back inthe playschool playground....

It is amazing how many people have strong opinions on subjects they know little about.

Just a few points ( not intended as FR bashing ):

If shutting down engines before stopping is non SOP then it is unprofessional by the skipper. If it is SOP then it is unprofessional by the airline. While the 737 has two electrical hydraulic pumps if as has been mentioned the APU fails or autoshuts down what happens? I would guess this procedure is not approved by FR.

To the best of my knowledge FR like most European carriers nowadays don't have an engineer at every turnaround. The cockpit crews walk-around is the one and only. The seriousness of this is obvious. I'm sure the culprit was told in training like the rest of us what is required. If an inexperienced co-jo hasn't grasped this yet it is hardly the fault of management.

Eng123. It is common knowledge and sometimes apparant that a number of FR crews use Rev to slow during taxi. I have heard speculation ( rumours only I know ) that without brake fans and quick turnarounds it might keep the temperatures down. You would know this better than I would. The real question is, again, is it SOP? If not then the skipper doing it is behaving unprofessionally.

There have been all sorts of posts about fast approaches and ATC speed control. Dub have tried to introduce this but with only moderate success. The reason for this is obvious, a number of the locals ignore the speed controls. FR are guilty of this but they are not the only ones. ( BTW if an aircraft is at 13 miles and you are at the holding point it is absurd to suggest there isn't enough separation for a departure )

Safety is not to be taken for granted. Those who brag about safety records walk a dangerous road. You don't ever hear Qantas bragging. It is way too important. FR like everyone have their incidents, the only odd thing is the media always seem to ignore them. Everyone saw the photo of the Euroceltic in Sligo but the FR in Charleroi two weeks earlier never even got a mention.

Any non-aviators reading this might think my suggesting that someone was unprofessional is saying they are not safe. That is not the case. If you shut down both engines before stopping it is unprofessional but it is not unsafe. Likewise using reverse thrust during taxi although with FOD ingestion you may reduce the life of the engine.
Also reading this thread you might think FR pilots might be the only ones to do such things. This is not the case either. FR attract more negative attention because I would suggest their CX makes enemies everywhere.

Last point to Dub ATCO. Just because an aircraft doesn't go-around from an approach doesn't mean the approach wasn't flown too fast. It just means the crew didn't take the sensible and safe option of exercising a go-around. This isn't an FR exclusive either.

Captain Numpty:

I have just seen your last posting and I cannot let it pass without comment. Your opening post on this thread was as !!!!!-stirring as it is possible to get. Anyone with even half a brain should realise that if a lot of !!!!! is thrown around then some of it will surely land back on his or her own head.

Even a brand new professional pilot with just a modicum of experience would realise that spacing and speed control on the approach in controlled airspace is the responsibility of ATC and not left to the whim of individual pilots. To imagine that Ryanair or any other airline could go around breaking speed limits without the knowledge and approval of ATC is frankly laughable.

For anyone with a 777 rating not to know this is inconceivable. If you really have got a 777 rating and don't know about such fundamentals then you are a danger to yourself and everyone else around you.

Frankly, I have come to the conclusion that you are a sciolist.

Incidentally, you still haven't told us why you were flying Ryanair and what it was that they did to rattle your cage in the first place.

If I were you I would bury Captain Numpty and get yourself a new callsign for nobody is going to take Captain Numpty seriously ever again. Next time, don't comment upon matters of which you have little knowledge.

Hey guys, I have been with Ryanair some time now and I hqve flown both the 200 and the 800. Our pilot body is as diverse as it can be with pilots ranging from South Africa to Canada and from New Zealand to Chile. Over 650 pilots from SAS, SABENA SwissAir Britannia, Air New Zealand, South African AIrways, British Airways and on and on. I cannot immagine that these guys became unproffesional the day they walked through the door. The 800 fleet does not use Reverse Thrust during taxi, the 200 does. We do not shut down both engines prior to arriving on to stand. The Ryanair SOPS call for a continious descent and for a low drag approach being fully configured by 800 feet that is full flaps gear down and thrust for landing speed bug +5. The low drag approach is not applicable during low vis, or for non precision approaches, or if ATC requires other speeds
We fly 80 hours a month four sectors a day many non precision approaches and a few circle to lands in places like Carcassone or Genova, and I personally do not know of any skipper who would jeoperdise his/her licence and the safety of 189 passengers plus crew to satisfy any commercial pressures. I have never felt any commercial pressures in my nine years with Ryanair. Does this mean that we could not have an accident? No way we just believe that if it happens it will not be because any of us deliberetely brake rules or push the aircraft to the limits. We just come to work for a nice easy and pleasant day, take the money and go home:D :D

Time for me to just tell everyone that I will allow a certain amount of 'steam' but I am also here to tell you that the most recent posts are heading towards the unacceptable. Please do not enter into slagging matches. Think about what you are saying in your posts before hitting the submit button.

I do have a very interesting little device that I can use to stop anyone making any further uneccessary remarks. Just cool it. It is an interesting thread.

As a matter of fact I was on board a FR flight to PIK recently and I estimated the taxi speed to be around 40kts at STN! I personally think that is way too high. But the operation itself was slick in both directions.

PPP

If you're not a current or former airline pilot or an ATCO then I struggle to find your opinion or observations interesting on this thread.

If you are qualified to have an opinion on this then I am interested to know which airline you would hold FRA up against when comparing safety records. I can't think of any airline that would particularly outshine FRA. I can think of several that have had both closer shaves and more incidents/accidents than FRA.

Which makes one wonder why FRA safety is such a recurring theme on PPRuNe.

I suspect if they were run by Mike Olery out of a EGSS HQ and had G as their first letter of registration then this recurring theme, wouldn't. Brilliant British success story would be more the attitude with a dollop of lets give Mike an OBE'ism thrown in.

A good size fleet, using busy airspace to plenty of Cat B & C airfields for well over a decade and they haven't hurt anyone yet.

Thats not bad. Better than some.

WWW

Hear, Hear
now can we Plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz close this thread
Pprune Pop......i think some of those bad boy points you have should be sent to Capt Numpty to stirring this rubbish in the first place.
:cool: ;) :cool:

One final post,

I don't care that ryr always ask if they have to obey the slp But could someone in the company please please please get the two callsigns ryr2255 ryr 3255 changed. Most days they come into stn at the same time and if you have spent anytime on r/t you will know that twos and threes sound almost exactly the same. We have been trying to get these c/signs changed or months but ryr just seem to ignore us! Do we have to have a blemish or worse on ryr's safety record before they are changed?:rolleyes:

johnpilot

Good post and more or less what I expected. Our SOP's require us to be fully configured by the OM. Thank goodness we don't do circling approaches anymore, or more correctly, not at the minimums of the old days...

Well, I operated the 737-200 in a previous life and a few of the Captains used to cut both engines as we approached the stand. One day we did this and the brakes then failed. As we gently rolled towards the bowser the Captain opened his DV window and yelled at the marshallers to throw a chock under the nosewheel. Eventually they caught on and the a/c stopped dead about 4' away from the bowser, accompanied by the sound of 189 passengers falling over and all the catering falling out of the galleys.

So I don't think it's safe............

Must have been a tight squeeze with 189 pax on a -200.How would having the engine's running guard against a brake failure? With APU running supplying electric power then the electric hyd pumps are available to provide brake pressure to the outbd wheel brakes,even ignoring the pressure available to all brakes via the brake accumulators[available without any hyd pumps running]

pom:

I know nothing about 732s or your previous operation but I am curious to know:

1. Is it possible to get 189 passengers into a 732?

2. Why was the bowser parked in front of a moving aircraft? Surely this is a highly dangerous practice?

3. Why did 189 passengers fall over when they should have been seated with their seat belts fastened? Did one of you switch off the seatbelt sign whilst the aircraft was still in motion?

4. Why was the catering not firmly secured before landing?

All in all it sounds like a very dodgy operation to me.

Time to join the bunfight!

JW411 & stargazer02,
If you care to read the original post again you will see that it is about the perception of the guys wife.
Since 99.9% of passengers are not aviation professionals, it is IMHO, pretty important to consider their perceptions of us as individual companies and as an industry as a whole.
You may recall a small thing called SARS which has to be one the the best/worse cases of perception in a long time and had an effect on most, if not all of us.
Your personal attacks on CN belittle you in front of your colleagues and detract from the effectiveness of any point you are trying to make.
I'm sure that FR pilots are no less professional than any other good airline and long may that continue.
However, this is a 'Professional Pilots' forum and I personally think it reasonable for us to be able to question the operation of others in 'public' airspace.
I don't have a problem with fast approaches that are safe and stabilised but I do have an opinion on some of the other points raised.

Happy landings all.

stormcloud

Off soap box, engage blast deflectors!

stormcloud:

I thank you for your reply. I can see that you are a good and charitable man. I am indeed aware that Captain Numpty purported to be passing on his "new wife's perceptions" but I simply do not believe him.

I decided early on in this thread that he was just using this ruse to start yet another Ryanair !!!!!-stirring contest and nothing that I have read since has dissuaded me from that view.

I have never worked for nor do I ever have any intention of working for Ryanair but I am getting sick and tired of fellow professional pilots being attacked in this way.

I have been a professional pilot for more than 40 years and have taught and flown with many fine young men. Some of them now fly with FR and they simply do not deserve to see and listen to the sort of malevolent and cowardly odium that the likes of the starter of this thread just love to create.

JW411,

You have me at a disadvantage as I only have 40 years of life so far :ok:

I did'nt see it as a $h!t stirring start but, hey, we can disagree.

Like you I never have/never will etc.
I think part of the problem, or maybe a large part of the problem is MOL. While undoubtedly a brilliant business man he comes across as a complete ar$e. Flies are drawn to smell of S**t!

I'm sure the guys/girls you taught are not the ones doing 40 kt taxying or turning off the masters before the park brake is on but some undoubtedly do and that is a reasonable point for discussion and IMHO critisism. It's also a fact of life that we are all (company or profession) tarred with the brush of one or two idiots. Maybe it's better to be 'attacked' here than the front page of a daily.

WWW asked 'why FRA safety is such a recurring theme on PPRuNe'. Again, I think it comes down to the perception of many pilots who see them fast taxying etc, know that they have got away with it so far (thinking 'cowboy') but wonder how long it will last.:uhoh:

Haven't seen any of CNs previous posts so can't respond to your last.

Anyway, it's ok to disagree unless you are pointing at the ground
;)


Happy landings.

stormcloud

I WOULD LOVE TO FLY A FAST APPROACH AT DUB BUT THE ATC IS SO BAD THAT I SELDOM CAN SEND THE DUBLIN ATC GALS ANN GUYS TO STN TO SEE HOW HOW IT CAN BE DONE REALLY WELL


Edit: BPK, perhaps you would care to say what your point is. It is very hard to understand right now.

And just for your info. Using capital letters is considered to be 'shouting' and, therefore, rude. Thought I should just let you know. ;)

BPK to get your point across try english and (FEWER CAPITALS)......we ALL speak it here.......

Sorry, details a bit hazy after 20 years. 124 pax I think - some of them always got up as the a/c approached the stand, even with the cabin crew shouting at them. You will find that the catering will fall out when the a/c stops dead, whether it's "secured" or not (ours was). If you haven't seen a bowser drive in front of a moving aircraft recently, maybe standards have improved in your neck of the woods over the last 20 years. Having said that, I saw one last week.

As I recall, the brake failure was caused by the electrical power changeover when the engines were shut down.

line up canx due aircraft at 13 miles 300knts !!! Ex military driver remembering the run in and break, going to guns, TFLW radar on, hard ride set....

Not having flown with Ryanair, no real comment, but was passed by one B737 on the approach to LTN, we were 180knts and he passed us like a bat out of hell, boards out, aiming to be nbr 1 ahead of us and the other 2 aircraft. He called visual at 10 miles , asked if any traffic on finals, reply was negative, called up turning finals now, switching to tower,............. now thats worthy of a comment or two...:D

As a regular flyer on Ryanair I have nothing against them (apart from the fact they are always delayed :p ) However I have observed all the above mentioned on this thread several times and have often wondered about the safety of some of these practices. I have noticed before it was even mentioned that Ryanair seem to do everything in a hurry, infact taxing to 05 at STN on one flight the pilot opened the throttles very slightly and just let the aircraft roll faster and faster! we must have been doing about 40kts at the end of the taxiway!! and about 50% of the time the engines are shut down before we stop at the gate. About 90% of the time the flaps and gear don't come down till late on in the approach and the aircraft does seem to approach very fast and always has to use spoilers to slow down before the flaps come out! infact once seen it deploy flaps 5 and still had to use spoilers to slow down!!

I'm not an airline pilot so I've no idea if these practices are safe or not I'm just stating the facts which I have observed first hand, like I said I'm not bashing Ryanair in any way, they always take me to where I want to go safely and that's all that matters to me.

I flew Ryan a coupla months ago outa DUB and the whole operation was very slick and to my liking. So slick in fact that the Captain forgot to do the pax announcement until we were about to line up on the runway and even then it was:

"Morning ladies and gents, we have clearance for take off so are gonna go straight away. Weather in STN is the same as it is here. Cheers"

Good ole customer service eh! :)

Personally I couldn't have given a monkeys about that but I bet the PR dept would be up in arms over it. As for the taxiing, approach and shutting down before stopping bizzo....... I never noticed but that's not to say they didn't of course but is there really an issue anyway if it's all within regs?

VFE.

Hi,
I'll put my comment in...

When I flew with Ryanair to Verona, they were going incredibly fast on the approach. As we exited the runway, the reversers were still engaged at the SAME PERCENTAGE that they were when we landed. Then, we taxiied incredibly fast to the gate and were shunted off the plane as fast as possible.

Also, on departure from Stansted, the plane arrived late (I would like to stress that it did on the way back as well). The passengers got off, and then we went straight on. No cleaning. There was enven a large lump of chewing gum on my seat when I came to sit down. Fresh as well.

I wasn't impressed with Ryanair. Not at all.

So you have never seen a Ryanair 732 come on to stand 13 at CWL then have you?? ground speed of 25knts + both engine switched off as it passes stand 9 and heavy braking coming up to the stop bar with the marshaler s**ting himself thinking is he going to stop?? I have even listend in on tower as the asked a FR 732 to reduce taxi speed.

You're not going to believe this, but yesterday I heard "Ryanair, can you expedite your taxy, you're delaying the aircraft behind". Flogging offence, I would have thought.

Re fast approaches and taxi speeds. I used to fly the a/c 'harry flatters' the whole time. On a line check once tho, my (very) experienced line trainer made me do the actual sums and work out the actual gain. You know 20 kt extra for 8 mins takes you about 2 miles nearer the runway.......... saves you about 40sec etc etc. Do your own sums when you get a mo. As for say 40 Kt extra betweem six and three miles on the ILS the gain's utterly miniscule. work it out if you can be arsed.
Naturally the same sort of logic applies to taxxing. do the sums for a typical one mile taxi to see the tiny saving in time.
As for shutting down before you park. Why? fuel saving truly insignificant and surely doesn't even allow quicker disembarkation.
Re. Ryanair safety record. I'm glad its good! All airlines start off with a good safety record. The trick is to keep it that way year in year out. Still......so far so good.
Just work out what the gain actually is, timewise. That way at least you know what you are getting for all that rushing about:}

Me. I just wish they'd TALK a bit slower on the RT:ok:

Ryr policy is the same as most on the 800. Econ descent, dont fly flat out to catch up lost time, etc etc. So if anyone has hard evidence they should present it. Otherwise leave them alone.

I have operated for them and its no different. Gossip based accusations based on the earlier operations with 200 series.

If some guys decide to speed up its their chioce , not policy.

No, FR's config is 130Y for 737-200.

Yes, highly dangerous and unlikely it happened. Bowser should not even drive in front of an aircraft taxing on stand. (Aircraft right of way over vehicles).

Also sounds very doubtful. Everyone knows lots of pax do stand up against cabin crew instructions. (All 130 ?? hmm)

Mistakes happen , latches fail. Also highly unlikely.

Or it never happened?

Former FR Dispatcher