Well said M. Mouse -

Why is it that the only people who seem to have a problem with BA SOP's are those that don't fly for them.

Funny that.

------------------
"After V1, we'll take the emergency into the air - You call 'Positive Climb' and I'll ask for the gear up. We'll climb away at a minimum of V2 and a maximum of V2 + 25"

Mouse, there is a problem for those of us in the industry who teach different SOP's to different airlines. I only have to explain Boeing SOP's once to a student, it takes about 2 minutes, and they never have any questions or confusions. When I have to teach BA SOP's (there are 3 other airlines in UK that use them), it takes at least half an hour with the use of specially designed checklists and I have to go over them several times. There is general confusion between P1 and P2, Captain and First Officer, handling and non-handling, pilot flying and pilot not flying, descent pilot and landing pilot and who the hell is doing what now.

In the final analysis, any SOP that is not universally appreciated and understood, or whose logic is suspect, is probably not a good SOP.

[This message has been edited by Pete Otube (edited 06 June 2001).]

I had my fingers crossed, NUR NUR NUR NUR NUR!

Positive Climb:

Yes I know it was a lot more complicated; 6AM, long flight, difficult approach etc. I was merely challenging your claim that BA sops considerably reduce cfits.

Magnus:

Have experienced that selfsame thing but I had to go-around the first time. Fair enough, but firstly, how often does this actually happen? and secondly, to drop 20-30' on a precision approach below DA is not life threatening stuff. It just seems to me like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

Anyway, it's inevitable for me so I will come to terms with it, just like any change in this industry. The only reason I resurrected this thread was to divine just how much of my beloved raw data flying I was going to have to do without, and it seems not too much.

>>BA SOPS clearly explained in this official document....
http://www.pprune.org/go.php?go=/pub...ahandling.html <<

This "bulletin" has been widely circulated online for years. Is it legitimate or just another urban legend?

<Sticks head above parapet speaking as jet driver for 1st time>

I have just converted to my first commercial type and have done so to BA SOP's. I found them straightforward.

Perhaps its a case of having to unlearn previous methods that makes people resent or doubt the BA SOP methodology?

If I can handle it with no previous commerical or jet time then it can't be that hard, quirky or confusing...

WWW

Sorry, Captain A, I think we should see the whole lot.

Definitions:
There are three groups referred to in the Flying Manual:

1. Captain and First Officer
2. P1 and P2
3. Handling Pilot and Non-Handling Pilot

The first group basically refers to rank or in other words the seat occupied and cannot change.

The second group effectively defines the pilot who is ‘flying that leg’.

The third group depicts who is handling the a/c at the time.

It is therefore possible for the First Officer to be the P1 (his leg) during which time he will be both HP and NHP as required by the procedures. The same mixture also applies to the Captain; he will be P2 when giving the leg away to the F/O.
.

The Standard Leg:
The Flying Manual only refers to the Standard Captains leg when outlining SOP’s. The term ‘Role Reversal’ is used when it is the F/O’s leg.

Captain’s (P1 in this case) duties: F/O’s (P2) duties:

External + internal/cabin inspection Carries out the checks
Obtains the departure clearance from ATC Works out performance etc
Calls for ‘start and pushback’ as reqd Starts the engines
Talks to the ground engineer during the push

Once push and start completed

Capt calls ATC for taxi clearance
(Capt always does this because tiller only on LHS)
Capt calls for flap (done before moving off) Sets flap for takeoff
Commences taxi Does the checks+ R/T once moving

Once airborne duties as follows

Flies the a/c (HP) Normal P2 duties + R/T (NHP)
Landing Brief given 10 mins before TOD
Hands over control to F/O (Now HP) – flies descent & approach
Takes control and Lands a/c
(at approx 1000’ or when visual if later)

At end of the landing rollout

Capt takes control and steers a/c off runway F/O (now NHP) completes after landing procedures - starts APU - talks to ATC etc
Capt taxis onto stand F/O shuts down engines (this is always done by whoever started them)

If the Captain gives a leg away (leg and leg about normally) the F/O will become P1 and
carry out the duties as per the left hand column (Capt’s duties), apart from the taxi to/from
the runway. This is called role reversal in the FM.

Remember that the Captain is always the Capt but can be P1 or P2 plus HP or NHP as
appropriate.

Where a duty as indicated above is shown as Capt’s …….. it means that only the Captain
can perform this task and is usually because the tiller is only on one side.

Notes:

Although not mentioned above there is a fourth group of responsibilities aligned to those of
P1 and P2.

These are known as DFA (does f*** all) and DFE (does f***ing everything) !!!!

Temp+TSG

You're wrong. The non handling pilot starts the engines. Th handling pilot does any r/t ground comms until flaps are set then whilt he taxis the NHP takes the r/t

NN

abnormal n - get back in your box

I thought this one had long since been laid to rest !

I opperated with 'conventional' SOP's for over 6 years, but now use BA's.

I found it no problem converting to them, but given the choice would prefer normal SOP's. Anyone I fly with who has ever used any other SOP's other than BA's always has 'things to say' about the way BA does things.

Its healthy to question an SOP so long as crews operate to their companies SOP.

My biggest gripe over BA's SOP's are the operation of the 'throttles and reverses' on an RTO. All trainers I speak to say that is the single most common missed item in the sim by the NHP.

I dont make the rules, I just play the game !

Secret Squirrel,

" I was merely challenging your claim that BA sops considerably reduce cfits"

you still seem to be somewhat confused about what I am saying. This is not what I am claiming at all and in fact my point has nothing to with BA specifically.

I merely pointed out that it has been statistically proven that 'monitored approaches' (regardless of airline) are less likely to result in CFIT.

Therefore, based on this evidence, this is a major factor in why BA chooses to fly approaches in this way.

I'm on the 400 with BA, and while not delighted with the SOP's, I've got to say that without them, I would fly one approach to a landing per month. With them, I get maybe 3 or 4 ILS's per month to go with my landing. I can't help feeling though that the heavy/deep landing thing has something to do with taking over at 1000'. You're not in tune with it like you are when you fly the whole thing from TOD.

Normal Nigel.

Your post lends nothing to this debate and I have deleted it.

Abuse and foul mouthings are not acceptable.
I would, therefore, strongly suggest you review your attitude before you press the submit button in any future debates or postings.


PPRuNe Pop
Administrator
[email protected])



[This message has been edited by PPRuNe Pop (edited 07 June 2001).]

[This message has been edited by PPRuNe Pop (edited 07 June 2001).]

Abnormal - give me an address and I'll email you Lee's staff number, (and mine 'cos it's the same).

[This message has been edited by Pete Otube (edited 07 June 2001).]

There's no need to descend into that kind of language NN. If you want to do so, go and play in Jet Blast.

I tried to edit your post but the system wouldn't let me, I guess because it's not my forum, but I'm sure someone else will come along and sort it out.

I get a feeling in my water that this thread might become a closed one pretty soon.

I quite agree beaver eager -
normal_nigel - I find your tone extreemly offensive, we dont need that sort of language on a public forum, let alone the impression it gives 'joe public' of our airline. Thankfuly people like you are far and few between.

Pprune Pop

Thanks.

Sniff.

I have dealt with the offensive post in question.

I would now hope that the debate can continue - in a fashion that will not require further admin intervention.

Enjoy.

Well, it could, but it's been done to death. Please put this thread out of its misery and close it!!!

Some common sense,

The final decision/action on any important matter that is time critical is with the Captain, hence he should be in a position to take that desicion,so hands on the thrust levers and to/GA switches.

Those situations are:

1. Abort
2. Go around or land in low visibility.

All other situations are covered by the fact that the F/O should be able to fly.

Every set of SOP that respect these principles is OK.

And as a final remark, the less the difference in set up of the SOP between handling a normal compared to a non-normal situation the more efficient the non-normal will be handled.

In other words, when non-normals start to look like normal you are fully in control.

In the end the final question will be "who took the descision compared to who is responsible"

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Smooth Trimmer

[This message has been edited by Streamline (edited 07 June 2001).]