BA SOP's
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BA SOP's
Can someone explain to me what the SOP's of BA are like? I've heard that the non handling pilot starts the engines while the handling pilot talks on the radio?? whAt happens on the takeoff roll?
Thanks
oh, isn't this going to put off many wannabees for BA?
Thanks
oh, isn't this going to put off many wannabees for BA?
Joined: Feb 1999
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The Fors V Against about BA's SOP has been debated quite recently, As it is all that I know I think it works very well, so will not comment further.
I doubt it will put people off , since BA received over 20,000 applications last year alone for their TEP scheme, not sure about DEP applications.
[This message has been edited by CRP5 (edited 04 March 2001).]
I doubt it will put people off , since BA received over 20,000 applications last year alone for their TEP scheme, not sure about DEP applications.
[This message has been edited by CRP5 (edited 04 March 2001).]
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25,000+ aircraft are operated one way. A few hundred are operated the BA way. No one really knows why and if you ask a dozen training captains in BA, you will get a dozen different answers as to how their procedures came to exist. It seems to work, as does the normal way, however it will always seem strange to me that you hand over the aircraft on finals to the other pilot to land - come rain or shine.
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Something about the PF using the PNF as his 'personal autopilot' is the way it was explained to me.
Witnessed it as a guest in the Flight Deck of a 747 classic and although it seemed strange it did work just fine (of course).
One of the oddest moments was when the PF handed back 'control' of the a/c to the PNF at the top of descent.
I do quite a bit of Duty travel with BA and the whole operation seems pretty damn good to me (I'm CX 744).
Witnessed it as a guest in the Flight Deck of a 747 classic and although it seemed strange it did work just fine (of course).
One of the oddest moments was when the PF handed back 'control' of the a/c to the PNF at the top of descent.
I do quite a bit of Duty travel with BA and the whole operation seems pretty damn good to me (I'm CX 744).
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BA SOPS clearly explained in this official document....
http://www.pprune.org/go.php?go=/pub...ahandling.html
http://www.pprune.org/go.php?go=/pub...ahandling.html
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Jagman - "Something about the PF using the PNF as his 'personal autopilot' is the way it was explained to me." But if the PNF is acting as personal autopilot, would he not be PF? In fact BA use "Handling Pilot" (HP) and "Non-Handling Pilot" (NHP).
To answer the original question, BA do it like this:
P1 (the pilot in charge of the sector) does all the management as well as taxying, doing the take-off, climb, cruise and landing. In between the P2 (the "co"-pilot) will fly the descent and approach. This is called the "monitored approach" and lets the P1 who will land the aeroplane get his eyes out of the windows early to pick up the visual references ASAP which saves that awkward transition from instruments to visual at a late stage.
As P1 runs the show, P2 does engine starts. The NHP reads checklists and does the R/T etc (just like almost everyone else).
During Take-off the HP (even if itīs the FO) gets to handle the thrust levers and make "Stop" calls is the situation merits.
A number of airlines use exactly the same procedures (easyJet for one) apart from the sole difference of not having the "monitored approach".
Thereīs a lot of Bulls**t talked about BA SOPs, mainly by people who don't fly for BA and know the SOP!!! I teach it every day so have a fair idea what it's about!
To answer the original question, BA do it like this:
P1 (the pilot in charge of the sector) does all the management as well as taxying, doing the take-off, climb, cruise and landing. In between the P2 (the "co"-pilot) will fly the descent and approach. This is called the "monitored approach" and lets the P1 who will land the aeroplane get his eyes out of the windows early to pick up the visual references ASAP which saves that awkward transition from instruments to visual at a late stage.
As P1 runs the show, P2 does engine starts. The NHP reads checklists and does the R/T etc (just like almost everyone else).
During Take-off the HP (even if itīs the FO) gets to handle the thrust levers and make "Stop" calls is the situation merits.
A number of airlines use exactly the same procedures (easyJet for one) apart from the sole difference of not having the "monitored approach".
Thereīs a lot of Bulls**t talked about BA SOPs, mainly by people who don't fly for BA and know the SOP!!! I teach it every day so have a fair idea what it's about!
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Moggie : hello again !
Its the P1 who starts the engines AND also has the RT + ground coms. Its after the selection of flaps that the RT goes to the P2.
You fail to mention the senario on a STOP. The P1 closes the thrust levers then the P2 selects reverse. If it was the Capts. sector he would close the thrust levers, the f/o would select reverse and then below 70Kts the Capt. would take the throttles back again.
Thats 3 hand over of control's in a space of a few seconds during a critical manourve only practiced every 6 months in the SIM. Not to mention the runway used during the extra reaction time.
Tell me why its a good idea for the NHP to operate the reversers in BA sop's ??
Monitored approaches were great in the 'old days' when all we had was an NDM/VOR let down with a 400' minimum or if you were very lucky a CAT1 ILS to 200'...... YES works very well in that senario, BUT this is 2001 almost every approach I do is to a CAT3 ILS, if it was 'minimums' WX I would do an autoland.
I've done one minimums no-precision approach in the last 6 years ..... thats the exception, so why not have an SOP that reverts to monitored approach on that occasion ....???
Also, in the 'real world' its not the NHP who is your 'autopilot' ... he does his own thing on many occasions ..... often disconnecting everything becuase HE feel likes it and leaving me with a 'raw' aircraft in a busy TMA ...... or calling visual without asking me as the P1.
Its the P1 who starts the engines AND also has the RT + ground coms. Its after the selection of flaps that the RT goes to the P2.
You fail to mention the senario on a STOP. The P1 closes the thrust levers then the P2 selects reverse. If it was the Capts. sector he would close the thrust levers, the f/o would select reverse and then below 70Kts the Capt. would take the throttles back again.
Thats 3 hand over of control's in a space of a few seconds during a critical manourve only practiced every 6 months in the SIM. Not to mention the runway used during the extra reaction time.
Tell me why its a good idea for the NHP to operate the reversers in BA sop's ??
Monitored approaches were great in the 'old days' when all we had was an NDM/VOR let down with a 400' minimum or if you were very lucky a CAT1 ILS to 200'...... YES works very well in that senario, BUT this is 2001 almost every approach I do is to a CAT3 ILS, if it was 'minimums' WX I would do an autoland.
I've done one minimums no-precision approach in the last 6 years ..... thats the exception, so why not have an SOP that reverts to monitored approach on that occasion ....???
Also, in the 'real world' its not the NHP who is your 'autopilot' ... he does his own thing on many occasions ..... often disconnecting everything becuase HE feel likes it and leaving me with a 'raw' aircraft in a busy TMA ...... or calling visual without asking me as the P1.
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It always amuses me how much BA sop's are debated by those outside the airline. If you're in BA then you have operate with BA's sop's, if your not in BA then don't worry about it - and if it really concerns you don't apply to work for them, simple enough.
Oh and why would somebody call themselves speedbird 744 then enquire about BA sop's - worrying!
[This message has been edited by SITMOFO (edited 06 March 2001).]
Oh and why would somebody call themselves speedbird 744 then enquire about BA sop's - worrying!
[This message has been edited by SITMOFO (edited 06 March 2001).]
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moggie,
I'm sorry old chap but youve let yourself down. Your talk of the P1 (pilot in charge of the sector) is crap, I've always thought the P1 was the captain regardless of who was handling. Also you go straight into HP, NHP, P1, Non-landing HP etc....... I've very recently done a 737NG course at Boeing, Seattle, they absolutely hate the way you disregard their intentions and go your own way. How come the vast majority of the world use one method and BA use another. I'm not saying that the majority are always right. Modern aircraft are getting simpler to fly so why complicate the matter by introducing your own procedures? Sorry if I sound aggressive but I just cannot see why the manufacturers procedures are ignored in favour of others.
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'Keep the Stress Down'
I'm sorry old chap but youve let yourself down. Your talk of the P1 (pilot in charge of the sector) is crap, I've always thought the P1 was the captain regardless of who was handling. Also you go straight into HP, NHP, P1, Non-landing HP etc....... I've very recently done a 737NG course at Boeing, Seattle, they absolutely hate the way you disregard their intentions and go your own way. How come the vast majority of the world use one method and BA use another. I'm not saying that the majority are always right. Modern aircraft are getting simpler to fly so why complicate the matter by introducing your own procedures? Sorry if I sound aggressive but I just cannot see why the manufacturers procedures are ignored in favour of others.
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'Keep the Stress Down'
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I know this is a rumour network, but every now and again a few facts do help. Streamline's comments are sadly misinformed. Emirates'procedures were drawn up by their own pilots, working under a project pilot for each of the new fleets, 777 and A330-200. It became clear from a very early stage that a small airline needed to follow the manufacturer's recommended procedures, if only because the flood of amendments which accompany the first couple of years in service. Minor "cultural"changes were possible, and these were incorporated. There was never anything but co-operation and support from the manufacturers, whose follow up inspections of EK operations were very, very complimentary. Here endeth the facts.
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I seem to remember that there are 2 reasons why BA adopt these SOP's.The main one being to standardise across all fleets and the second is because of the 10 years plus one needs to remain in the R/H seat,therefore not wanting to be seen as a lowly co pilot and a radio operator on non handling sectors.
I always found it amusing when no flight level checks were made above FL200 and this was becuase the DC3 didnt fly this high so was omitted to keep all calls standard across the board.
The non handling pilot briefs the non flying pilot on how he/she would like the approach flown.The non flying pilot then flies the approach as briefed and will remain at the controls until DH visual when the controls are handed back to the non handling pilot who the makes the landing, who by now I presume becomes the non flying pilot, BUT WHOSE HANDLING IT? Anyway the flying pilot now asks the non handling pilot for full reverse but only if thats what he briefed for at TOD,otherwise he will have to ask for idle reverse which he will brief for on the rollout I presume.I think the purser taxis the A/C onto stand and the passenger in 3A does the after landing checklist.
I always found it amusing when no flight level checks were made above FL200 and this was becuase the DC3 didnt fly this high so was omitted to keep all calls standard across the board.
The non handling pilot briefs the non flying pilot on how he/she would like the approach flown.The non flying pilot then flies the approach as briefed and will remain at the controls until DH visual when the controls are handed back to the non handling pilot who the makes the landing, who by now I presume becomes the non flying pilot, BUT WHOSE HANDLING IT? Anyway the flying pilot now asks the non handling pilot for full reverse but only if thats what he briefed for at TOD,otherwise he will have to ask for idle reverse which he will brief for on the rollout I presume.I think the purser taxis the A/C onto stand and the passenger in 3A does the after landing checklist.