Tommy Turbine

You are quite right about phraseology being a contributory factor in incidents/accidents.

I don`t know what US ATC R/T is like, but some of their pilots phraseology is appalling!

....and.........relax.

:)

Specifically, what? Loki....

Re-read my previous thread; I commented that unfortunately I've heard British crews making just as much of a mess in the US of their FAA PHRASEOLOGY radio calls as US crews overseas make of ICAO. It goes both ways, but you never hear the US folks complaining over here about long-winded fluffy read-backs on a frenetic rush-hour frequency. Specifically: one of the most common I hear is, the ATIS says read back only Transp.code and atis letter if you've recieved your clearance (due to volume of calls from non-acars PDC equipped a/c) - promptly followed by an entire British waffle-out of the whole clearance. "Better to be safe..." I hear you say. Not so. Do as the ATIS tells you.

I'm always hearing on pprune complaints about "..twenty-five..." or "three five oh". Well, according to the AIM, that is the standard phraseology over here in the US. So until all Brits use it when flying over here, isn't it a little pompous to suggest that all US crews must use precise ICAO when in UK? And if the message gets across, who cares? This is not the BBC world Service attempting to influence what's left of the Empire on HF....

"Philip and I wish all US crews would use One's English..."

Some examples:

1...not listening out (not alone here,but the worst offenders)

2...Either unable to follow route instructions, or read them back in less than 3 attempts

3...asking silly questions on extremely busy frequencies like "can we direct...." despite just having been given a radar heading.

4...referring to flight levels as if they were altitudes.

I could go on but then I`d start to sound like one of them.

And all those examples occur over here, too ,Loki, with foreign crews. Like I said, it's extremely pompous of us Brits to feel that we are the master race of the radio....(if anyone, IMHO, it should be the Dutch: fluent in 3 or 4 languages)

Rraamjet -

Isn't it a bit unfair to expect pilots should know about your local phraseology when an international standard exists.

Many post, by Americans, gives the impression that you think that FAA is something worldwide (one thread in particular: ATC during go-around - a couple of American pilots simply couldn't accept that JAA rules allows visual approaches down to 800 meters RVR, despite links to official web-sites clearly stated it's indeed allowed).

[This message has been edited by Tor (edited 04 April 2001).]

I do feel that there is something in this post. My experience is initially mil fj now civvy trucker and one glaring observation from my days in RAF Germany is that the Brits would, by and large, integrate into the local community whereas the yanks would effectively take a couple of thousand acres of America with them around the world, including for example using US$ as the currency on base in Germany. Whats the point I,m trying to make? Well it develops a very insular outlook to life and no exposure or appreciation of other peoples systems, problems and solutions. Transfer that to the flight deck of an airliner and you get p*ss poor CRM.

Stands by for incoming

The thing is, The Harrier plans where bought by americans, Concord was not allowed the land in the us for years, and BA is the worlds favoirte airline.

I rest my case.

------------------
Forget The Pride, GO ROUND! :)

COWPAT,

Thats a very sweeping statement to make!
Does the fact that you are ex military make you an expert on CRM amongst US carriers?

I suppose having a few beers with some American servicemen has provided you with an insight into the operating culture of United or American.

CRM was developed in the US many years ago and since has been widely adopted by reputable airlines around the world.
It constantly amazes me that a group of so called professional pilots can operate American designed and built aircraft on airways systems that rely largely on historicaly American designes and ideas yet criticise everything American.

I realise that some people suffer from inferiority complexes that manifest themselves in such a way as to make one sound like your classic whinging pom.

But I guess thats life, still though I dont suppose the yanks are loosing any sleep over it!

Thanks for the incoming TT

No it doesn't make me an expert and I,m not commenting on any individual, but I do feel that the US military way of taking America around the world with them deprives US servicemen of some worthwhile exposure to the country they are serving in. I know (and work with) many US aviators and they are all top blokes, but they would be the first to admit that the ex mil US guys believe that the world revolves around DC and that the rest of the world should keep in step. That attitude is arrogant and wrong and the US military (for its own good reasons) does nothing to check it.

COWPAT
Would certainly have to agree with you about the ex- US military guys, they can be a real pain at times, especially when they join a civil airline and then complain about how things are done. Have found in the simulator that they are also no better that the civil trained guys.

COWPAT,

I agree with you when you suggest that there is a level of ignorance by many Americans about life outside their own sheltered world that serves to reinforce the seemingly wholesale dislike of yanks in general.

Just like you, I know many American pilot friends and have to say that they are not a bad bunch when you get to know them.

I also know that SOME ex military aviators and not necessarily Americans, can be rather critical of the way their civilian counterparts operate.

In all honesty I have seen first hand how certain military egos can get in the way of sound and sensible operating procedures.

Thats not to say that this problem does not afflict certain civilian types either!

So I suspect that what we are really discussing here is more a problem with individual personalities as opposed to nationalities.

Funny about that,I was under the impression that the various psychological tests that airlines blindly rely on, were designed to weed these characters out!



[This message has been edited by Tommy Turbine (edited 05 April 2001).]

Hi TT

Agree that arrogance/ignorance is not the sole preserve of ex US mil guys, but their system within the military actually seems to encourage that type of thinking. Hardly surprising then that they have more than their fair share of problems when transferring to civil aviation.

I just don't like big headed yanks, sorry if thats offencive, but I just don't,

Plus UK pilots don't run into MIGS,

Sorry that was bellow the belt.
sill funny though,

The only thing that makes U.S planes so good it the ammount of $ they have.


Sorry, I forgo to say COWPAT (Everyone else has!)

TO ALL:

I don't think anyone can make a general statement as to what nationality produces the best pilot.

The best pilot's have a sound knowledge in Aerodynamics, Air Navigation procedures (both IFR & VFR), Air Law (CARS,FAR,JARS, JEPPS etc), an excellent system knowledge and handling skill on the equipment he/she is flying and and extremely large helping of common sense.

As for the comments about ERU, yes it is a good school, but a degree from such a school does not make you an expert, it only gives you a license to learn. The best pilot's know that they are learning every time they strap in.

When you think you have learned all there is to know, it's time to retire.

Hope that makes the point, but then again, that's only my opinion.

Cheers, OffshoreIgor http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

[This message has been edited by offshoreigor (edited 08 April 2001).]

Since this topic was started the US, to my knowledge has lost 2 F15s in UK a light a/c in Germany, had the friendly fire cock up in Kuwait, the China incident, and today I hear they have lost a chopper in Vietnam.

Whats happening guys?

Any opinions on Welsh pilots by any chance?

I'm really interested.

WWW

Welsh pilots are the sheepish looking ones!

With a woolier than thou attitude? :)

The really funny thing about this thread is that it was probably started by an obvious ERU student. What's so funny is that these people say these stupid things and are always getting into these ignorant pi$$ ups on boards in the US all the time!

For the record, the worst pilots I have ever worked with all went to ERU. Excellent theory knowledge, but all were afraid to get checked off on tailwheel aircraft... (I think it has something to do with the fact that you actually have to know HOW TO FLY, REALLY FLY, to fly a tailwheel...well land one anyway.) I'm sure ERU turns out good pilots, I just personally have never met one...

The best pilots are the friendliest, with the greatest attitudes and always willing to help. (Regardless of their nationality.)

Personally, I don't give a flying frig what someone got on their written tests. I'd prefer to have a person who fly's tailwheels or gliders on their days off sitting next to me, if or when the time comes to go around on one engine IMC with smoke filling the cabin. (The Gimli Glider comes to mind, the Captain was an "amatuer" glider pilot, and slipped, SLIPPED, to a DEAD STICK landing a 767. Now that is FLYING!)

Being a natural born US citizen, but first generation Dutch, let me just comment on the biggest problem I see facing the US. The complete breakdown of the societies infrastructure. There are 100,000,000 single Americans that are activly looking for partners. That is 1/3rd of the population. 23% of the children in America lived in two parent homes in 1999. That is down from 56% in 1970 (same study.) But that means that 77% of the children in the US live in SINGLE PARENT HOMES. Men here are targets. The women are totally out of control. Everybody is competing with everybody, and the children don't have homes or parents.

I assume this is not the case, or is not as bad in other countries.

What this has to do with flying, I cannot tell. But It does reflect on the "differences" between the cultures, and therefore may be relevant. I hope somebody finds it illuminating.

Fly safe...