U.S. Pilots
 

U.S. pilots are the best in the world by far. We build the best aircraft both civilian and military. It is the way that all countries other than the U.S. grade the level of pilot skill that everyone simply doesn't understand. The U.S.A. promotes aviation, encourages it in every way and even has over 20 Universities across the nation teaching aeronautics. Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University being the best on the planet.
All countries other than the U.S. makes thier tests hard to make sure a large number of candidates fail. Its the way they weed out most of the people. Your governments do not want aviation to grow in there country. Hard tests on the ground do nothing for you in the air.

Whoever took my last message off about this subject cannot handle the truth because of where they were trained. See ya.

Flyle -

You need to study up for a drug test!

While American pilots are fairly good, there is no way that the average American pilot can touch the expertise of either British or Japanese pilots.

I'm a proud American, but there is no way I'd consider trying for the Canadian or British ATP. Their standards are not a matter of refresher training or local knowledge; they want that much more professional knowledge and skill from their pilots.

If you can find the data, check the number of airlines in the U.S. who issue FAA regulations to their pilots. I suspect it's rarely done and you can be certain that an extremely small percentage of pilots buy their own or download them from the Internet.

No regulations - no professionalism - sorry.

I don't mean to knock Americans, but if you get into the 'profits first; safety last' practices of the FAA, there is no other conclusion available.

Grow up dude!

Wind up. YAAAAAWWWWWWNNNNN......


:rolleyes:

Yes mate, we know, we know, the sun shines out of your @rse, heard it all before .....see ja in JB.....

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It is said that GOD doesn't subtract from ones' time on earth, those hours spent flying.

SKYDRIFTER,

You seem a little too anti-American to call yourself one. ;-)

I was just wondering why you view American pilots a being less skilled or knowledgable than Japanese or British pilots. Considering airline pilots, with all the automation, how would an ANA or BA crew pilot a 777 diffrently than an AA or UAL crew. In my opinion there would be no difference at all.

On the matter of professional knowledge, why do you discredit the aeronautical universities in the U.S.; especially schools like Embry-Riddle. These universities offer 4 year degrees for professional pilots that cover, in great depth, the subject of aviation. I admit, and this is strictly speaking from what I have heard, that the JAA ATPL written is difficult. However, most people on this site talk of completing the the 14 writtens in 6 months. It may be possible that people can cover 4 years of material in six months, but what is a persons retention of that material if it was covered in such a short period of time.

The FAA writtens are pretty pathetic, but in the U.S. you have absolutely no chance of being hired without a four year degree; whereas in Europe (again, this is from what I hear) airlines don't require college degrees. The trend in the U.S. nowadays is you either have an aviaton related degree or you're from the military. With all this, I really do not see how U.S. pilots are less skilled in anyway. I don't mean to start an argument, I'am just responding to all the anti-U.S. comments I see on this site. Any comments are welcome, especially from you SKYDRIFTER. :-)


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Think the average American pilot has more experience than their European counterparts. Euro pilots tend to know more about the theory (required by the exams). Don't know which one is better but maybe a combination of the two could be a good start.

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If you can't save the engine...save the airframe :)

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Americans have one thing on the rest of us and that is the size of their ego's.

R soles the lot of em.

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flyle
One of the most dangerous traits in a pilot is arrogance.

Nature is no respecter of inflated egos or overconfidence, and Murphy positively delights in bringing them down to earth.

Reflect on that before we get into an "I'm better than you" debate here.

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It'll never fly.

Hey flyle,
As you have done, I am going to make some outrageous generalisations here.

Guess what, your 4 year degree is not even the equivalent of a European 2 year degree. Heck, outside the Ivy League, all you have to do to graduate, is show up .

Education has little to do with pilot skills as is shown by the accident statistics for Doctors and Lawyers in general aviation.

The minimum standards are set by the FAA, or JAA, or whoever, but then it is up to the pilot or his employer to improve on that.

The achieved, or in service, standards of piloting vary greatly within all jurisdictions and your generalisations highlight your limited exposure.

There are brilliant and cr*p pilots in all countries, which are you?

I like American pilots , their antics in UK airspace have kept me amused for over 25 years.

1...Inability to listen out.

2...Always querying the route

3...Amusing variations on fix/ reporting points eg Saint Rumble (Strumble)

4...Not understanding plain English (it`s them with the accent, not me)

I could go on (which is another thing they do)

From our side of it - the Americans can fly the planes no problem, no better or no worse than any other international airline, however there seems to be a 'slight' language barrier. It may work state side, but definately not here. We have the ICAO recognised standard which we do veer from SLIGHTLY, but the Americans don't seem to have any knowledge of it what so ever. However I can see its the same for the Brits flying in America. Reflecting on that, some Brits flying the 'larger' a/c over here seem to have very similar problems!

Basically, in your own ways, your all as BAD as each other, but then again, we're not perfect either. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

Look at the number of post - this is someone who has registred just to provoke :rolleyes:

But it's quite amusing. My contribution to the fun, is to say that no one flies better than the Brits - they can do it half asleep or even drunk :)

Tor, you are absolutely right, they do seem to do that rather well.

I wonder if this isn't some cheap advertising by Embry-Riddle?

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rgds Rat

In my short career as a pilot I have seen things which back up both sides of the argument. I'm a Brit and I learnt to fly in the States, and then instructed out there. I was asked to check out a guy (to fly a light twin) who had this 4 year degree from Embry Riddle and he did not have a clue about flying or the way the aircraft worked.
On the other side, in the states when learning multi engine there is a huge emphasis on understanding the various factors of Vmc. When I went to Oxford to convert to a CAA licence there was not a single mention of this in the ground school or even when flying the aircraft.
With this in mind I don't think it is fair to generalise those from either side of the Pond.

FLYLE,

Before you start boasting your academic achievements in the colonies, first start by getting your grammar right. English is not my native language, but even I can see from your posting that you didn`t read aeronautics at any decent university anywhere. And that`s just from your short posting.
Amusing, though.

Tell me, what on earth is an "Aeronautical University" actually for?

Here in the UK we can turn a high school graduate into a PHD in Nuclear Physics (or Aeronautical Design & Engineering)in 4 yrs, and a dumb ATPL pilot at Oxford or Perth in just 11 months. What the hell do they do for all that time at these places?

Just curious.

;)

I have a UK and a US ATPL and so I know what I am talking about!

I have completed the training in the US as well as in England for an ATPL licence / license.

I spent 3 years in America and I passed every single exam first time, from PPL thru to ATPL, whether it was a ground exam or flight exam.
In the UK, I failed most of my exams first time round.
This shows the level of difficulty and the standards required by each country.

Most people would think that the flying remains the same where ever you train.
I can tell you from experience that even flight training in the UK is more stringent than in the US.
As for the knowledge required, the UK ATPL demands much more knowledge that you can imagine. This could possibly prepare the pilot for any contingencies.

For e.g. : A PPL pilot got lost. An Airline Pilot started to question him about his position with regards to the sun and the ocean. Eventually, the airline pilot fixed his position and relayed the info to the rescue team. The PPL pilot was found. The Airline Pilot had utilised some of the knowledge which we learn in the UK ATPL Navs. I would imagine that 98% of American Pilots wouldn't have a clue with regards to cosmic navigation.

All areas of flying and studying including ETA's, R/T Procedures, Rules and Regulations are far more stringent in the UK than the US. This makes for a harder life but it also makes for a thoroughly well prepared Pilot. [The Creme de la Creme - The Bees Knees - The Dogs Bo!!ocks!].

Having said that, since there are less restrictions in the US, flying is more fun and relaxed.

Now the choice is up to the individual - Would u rather be relaxed or would u rather be well prepared?

I leave it up to you.

So the tests are harder in the UK and from seeing all the advertising for pilots there seems to be a shortage of qualified/experienced applicants. I can understand how one leads to the other but why is the pay so low in the UK? That’s not a slam. It just doesn’t make sense to me. If it’s so hard and there’s a shortage I would assume the market rate for your services would be higher. What am I missing here?

JetHeat - I hear your quals and I'll raise you five:

Ex-RAF, ex-USAF exchange, ex-UK regional, Ex-Cathay, now US major. OK?

What a load of tripe this thread is; it should be hermetically sealed. Unless you've flown for both's militaries and both's major carriers you really have no clue on what you're talking about when it comes to professionalism comparisons.

There are good and bad for both systems. I guarantee that most US pilots would struggle through the JAA exams ( and wonder about their relevance ). I am also absolutely certain that most BA or Cathay folks would find a US Major Airline type oral and checkride a shock ( and just as demanding ).

The US just doesn't put as many obstacles in the way of obtaining your licenses - the major's examine your knowledge at the interview board several years down the road. No 200 hr pilots in the biggies here.

And yes, I've cringed at my fellow Brits sounding lost and mis-pronouncing places over here, and also cluttering the radios with precise dictation. You can tell straight away the long-timers in BA - they blend in seamlessly at JFK/ORD/LAX or where-ever. Then again, that's my point. If you've spent all your time in a different system, you're bound to sound a little hesitant in another if you visit it only occasionally. With the rapid movement going on at the US carriers the overseas experience level is being diluted as many intl FO's are moving to domestic Capt. But I will say that the some of the best "polers" I've seen are over here - I think it's because they get more chance to hand-fly due to more visual days.
Endless Cat III's into LHR don't help your handling skills.

And as for the wind-up merchant who started this thread: grow up. Post your experiences of the rest of the world, so that we can all judge your background.

RRAMJET,

I agree that flying in the US is a hell of a lot easier than flying in the UK because of the leniancy and the more friendly manner adopted by everyone involved in flying or aviation. That's what makes it much more fun to fly in the states.

However, we are talking about skills and knowledge. I guarantee you a British Pilot would run cirlcles around a US Pilot when it comes to knowledge. As for flying, there could be arguments both ways.
I have flown in the US for 3 years and in the UK for 2.
I have experienced the UK Flight Training to be much more intensive and stringent compared to the US.
I am also aware of the type of airline orals which are administered in the US. I agree that the orals may be more intensive than some of the UK airlines. However, there are UK airlines who have more intensive orals than the US majors. It's not a question about oral questioning (Since that depends on the interviewers knowledge) but rather about the amount and type of knowledge obtained during your training and career.

You are all inferior to Arab pilots. It was us who invented the flying carpet or was it not.
Degreeprograms in american universitis are so easy even a 2yr old could go thru thosse in notime.
And you english do not owne the world anymore. you are the same or even worse

JetHeat, with your very limited experience you have little idea of heavy jet flying or military flying ( I note from elsewhere you just got your first KLMuK position - congrats ). Precisely which airline oral or type-ride did you sit over here?. I think an ex-US Navy pilot would surprise you with knowledge, and fly rings around you, in an F-18 or an airliner.

You're basing your thoughts on light civvie flying. I think that the Euro-students ARE further ahead at this early stage, simply because the weather is crummier and the airspace constraints are tighter. Also, progression to big jets is potentially much quicker, so the ability to have all the theory is needed at an earlier stage. This goes for the RAF, as well. The Forces are too small in the UK to carry anyone on a Sqn for as long as the US allows, whilst qualifications are completed.

Farouk, imshi!

Shukran habibi

Hmm, interesting subject: Who is best?

I have some experience from Europe, Middle East, Japan and USA.
Pilot licenses from 4 nations.
(But no British ATP)

Agree with previous posting on FAA orals and type rides. Not easy and they get your un-divided attention every time.

I cincerely belive that the quality of pilots
can be both good and bad on both sides of the pond. Have shared many a cockpit with many a Brit and did not spot any superior skill or knowledge that my US collegues did not have.
I am sure the knowledge part of the UK ATPL goes more into astro (Cosmic?) navigation and such, but I doubt it is relevant to flying modern aircraft in todays system.

I was born and raised in Europe before emmigrating to the US and have found if anything, that some European pilots take
themselves too seriously.

(I had a friend with Lufthansa once: He was about to upgrade on the Airbus. I cracked a joke about the Airbus being Poor Mans B-767. He never spoke to me again.....:-)

Lighten up guys, we all do the same job: Drive an airplane from A to B for a monthly
pay check. Big deal.


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Men, this is no drill...

RRAMJET

You're comparing the long time aviation flyers with the likes of me or the Military Pilots with Civy Pilots. You cant compare those.

Take like for like. Compare a UK Navy Pilot to a US Navy Pilot with the same length of experience, aganin dont pick the crappest one u know. Take a bunch of Pilots and then compare them.
Alternatively, take someone in BA and compare to someone in Delta with the same time or experience.

This is how you will extract the nitty gritty details of who knows what and how developed their flying skills are.

BTW, which did u find more intensive )in knowledge and flight training), RAF or USAF?

Jetheat,

Just a question, where exactly did you complete your flight training in the U.S.?

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JetHeat: good question - I've been pondering over it for a while. As anyone who has flown with the USAF on exch will tell you, they do things so completely different from the UK it's hard to make a comparison. Lack of flexibility is the biggest difference in training between the two. Believe it or not, the USAF guys can recite virtually word perfect all their relevant manuals, procedures, 60-16, etc. Whether it means anything to them is another question. But that's the point brought up by (TowerDog, I think) - is any of the information gleened on the UK ATPL subjects recalled or much use to your average 744 driver in the middle of the night over Nikolaievsk?

I think not. Most of it is so out of date it's laughable. ("you line up on Narita RWY 16 where the local variation is 12 east; what do you set your DG to?" Seriously - that was a UKATP nav Question I remember bursting out giggling to). So this begs the question - if you know this stuff, does that make you a more knowledgable pilot in today's glass cockpit environment? Would intimate tech knowledge of your a/c type be more relevent? I think so, and on this point the US crews score well.

I've addressed the handling question in a previous post.

Knowledge of the various rules and regs around the world is also important, and on this the US crews are very average. This is partly because the FAA emphasises checking on domestic routes by it's inspectors, probably due to budget constraints. But the big 3 are working dilligently to improve this. Remember, most of the pilots at AA, for example, didn't have ANY Europe flying until they bought TWA's routes in the late 80's. Nugget Euro-pilots are more used to travelling into strange FIR's at an earlier stage.

As you progress in your career, you'll find you recall less and less of the ATP theory, because you don't use it, and mostly it's not relevant. You'll wonder why they ever made you go through a lot of it, and why they let ex-navs set the questions.

Oh, JetHeat, one more thing I forgot to add:

The pilot that used oral-boxing and sun-angle to find the lost delivery pilot was on e Capt Vette of Air New Zealand ,I flew with his son at Cathay ( he's a Capt there ). I don't think his Dad was an admirer of Pom Atp theory, either. Only a keen amateur navigator. One of aviation's brilliant moments, and not likely to be repeated by a UK wooly-pully pilot in a GPS-equipped 310 - no matter how good his theoretical knowledge.

Interesting to note the situation at SV some years ago on the TriStar. Three ex-GF (all Brits) Captains joined and had a VERY difficult time as they had not handled their own throttles and hand flown at the same time. Same situation years later at UL. They could not fly well BUT their theoretical knowledge was quite good, and they all could watch the aircraft do a CAT III approach without difficulty. The Saudi's were not impressed (and rightly so IMHO).

Boys! You can put aside all your great pilots from America, Britain, Japan and elsewhere because it is so obvious that the very best pilots flying todays's modern airliners under God's beautiful blue sky are none other than the ex-officers and gentlemen of the Irish Army Air Corps. Ireland's finest to be sure!

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What we want is a bit of Pop Music, none of this Beethoven!!

What a load of absolute rubbish!!

I can tell the lot of you that American pilots are as good if not better than many of the so called expert Brits and Europeans.

Having spent 7 years flying in the United States I found the level of professionalism and overall competence of many pilots to be without question of a very high standard.

Lets not forget that unfortunate UAL crew that had to fly an aircraft without hydraulic power into Sioux City a few years ago. Its widely acknowledged that this particular AMERICAN crew handled the situation brilliantly. Simulator tests subsequently showed that the aircraft was virtually uncontrollable.

This horsesh@#t nonsense about who or what system produces better pilots is something that only serves to demonstrate the fact that many pilots and not just Americans have a serious ego problem.

There are countless examples of absolute stuffups by crew from all parts of the world. The Brits have killed their fair share of happless passengers over the years.

So wake up and smell the coffee we are all as bad or as good as one another.

NB: One notable exception is Australia, where there have been no jet fatalities in its entire history of commercial aviation.
The only fatalities occured on some British designed and built aircraft that had a nasty habit of shedding wings. Viscounts is what they called them!!

So lets get on with the business of aviation and respect for one another, and leave the pissing contest alone!

I really don't care if I'm not as well educated as a UK pilot, as long as I enjoy my job and my paycheck clears twice a month!

One thing I do know is that UK pilots get hosed both paywise and by the tax man!

Fly safe and remember that a pilot is not management.

The Yanks always will have a bad image in Britain, no matter what happens, but I'm now getting the impression that ALL pilots are just stuck up pompous gits, that have so much time, they can argue in circles about this thread. IT DOESN'T MATTER, you all get from A to B safely, or you couldn't be posting anyway. As for that, its us Air Traffic'ers that get you there safely 99% of the time, and your fancy on-board computer the other 1% when we mess up. I'd love a job getting paid for 8 hours, when all the work takes 5 mins. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Try telling that to the many hundreds of pax and crew that have died over the years due to mid airs or being vectored into Cb's or terrain.
I guess ATC played no part in the Canary Islands the day two 747s lay smouldering on the runway!

Tommy Turbine,

Shut up! You don't know what you're talking about. The Tenerife accident was not ATC's fault. The KLM took-off without clearance. Big time co*k-up by an experienced training captain!

Avman,

There is no need to be like that!
I remember this accident quite clearly and I do recall that the blame was placed on the KLM skipper but that there were many other contributing factors.

Some of the phraseology that was used by ATC on that fateful day left a lot to be desired.

I seem to remember that there was a lot of confusion about whether the KLM crew thought they were cleared for takeoff or whether they were to expect takeoff clearance as they were lining up.

In any event what I was trying to demonstrate was that accidents can occur because of many systemic failures forming error chains.

In other words we all have a duty of care,pilots and controllers alike to the people who place their lives in our hands.

It is with this thought in mind that I take exception to criticism by controllers aimed squarely at pilots.

Relax and have a cup of coffee or something!!

Hey TT,

You need to reread the transcripts on Tenerife. The KLM FO was well aware that they were not cleared for takeoff.

KLM has tried to avoid blame, to this day, they still point their fingers at ATC. Captain Van Zandt was their poster boy, but apparently not the easiest guy to get along with.

"We go now!"

411A,

SV don’t have CATIII approval, so I guess that those British pilots were watching some other airline!

Mutt :)