RRAMJET,

I agree that flying in the US is a hell of a lot easier than flying in the UK because of the leniancy and the more friendly manner adopted by everyone involved in flying or aviation. That's what makes it much more fun to fly in the states.

However, we are talking about skills and knowledge. I guarantee you a British Pilot would run cirlcles around a US Pilot when it comes to knowledge. As for flying, there could be arguments both ways.
I have flown in the US for 3 years and in the UK for 2.
I have experienced the UK Flight Training to be much more intensive and stringent compared to the US.
I am also aware of the type of airline orals which are administered in the US. I agree that the orals may be more intensive than some of the UK airlines. However, there are UK airlines who have more intensive orals than the US majors. It's not a question about oral questioning (Since that depends on the interviewers knowledge) but rather about the amount and type of knowledge obtained during your training and career.

You are all inferior to Arab pilots. It was us who invented the flying carpet or was it not.
Degreeprograms in american universitis are so easy even a 2yr old could go thru thosse in notime.
And you english do not owne the world anymore. you are the same or even worse

JetHeat, with your very limited experience you have little idea of heavy jet flying or military flying ( I note from elsewhere you just got your first KLMuK position - congrats ). Precisely which airline oral or type-ride did you sit over here?. I think an ex-US Navy pilot would surprise you with knowledge, and fly rings around you, in an F-18 or an airliner.

You're basing your thoughts on light civvie flying. I think that the Euro-students ARE further ahead at this early stage, simply because the weather is crummier and the airspace constraints are tighter. Also, progression to big jets is potentially much quicker, so the ability to have all the theory is needed at an earlier stage. This goes for the RAF, as well. The Forces are too small in the UK to carry anyone on a Sqn for as long as the US allows, whilst qualifications are completed.

Farouk, imshi!

Shukran habibi

Hmm, interesting subject: Who is best?

I have some experience from Europe, Middle East, Japan and USA.
Pilot licenses from 4 nations.
(But no British ATP)

Agree with previous posting on FAA orals and type rides. Not easy and they get your un-divided attention every time.

I cincerely belive that the quality of pilots
can be both good and bad on both sides of the pond. Have shared many a cockpit with many a Brit and did not spot any superior skill or knowledge that my US collegues did not have.
I am sure the knowledge part of the UK ATPL goes more into astro (Cosmic?) navigation and such, but I doubt it is relevant to flying modern aircraft in todays system.

I was born and raised in Europe before emmigrating to the US and have found if anything, that some European pilots take
themselves too seriously.

(I had a friend with Lufthansa once: He was about to upgrade on the Airbus. I cracked a joke about the Airbus being Poor Mans B-767. He never spoke to me again.....:-)

Lighten up guys, we all do the same job: Drive an airplane from A to B for a monthly
pay check. Big deal.


------------------
Men, this is no drill...

RRAMJET

You're comparing the long time aviation flyers with the likes of me or the Military Pilots with Civy Pilots. You cant compare those.

Take like for like. Compare a UK Navy Pilot to a US Navy Pilot with the same length of experience, aganin dont pick the crappest one u know. Take a bunch of Pilots and then compare them.
Alternatively, take someone in BA and compare to someone in Delta with the same time or experience.

This is how you will extract the nitty gritty details of who knows what and how developed their flying skills are.

BTW, which did u find more intensive )in knowledge and flight training), RAF or USAF?

Jetheat,

Just a question, where exactly did you complete your flight training in the U.S.?

[This message has been edited by AACapt (edited 30 March 2001).]

[This message has been edited by AACapt (edited 08 April 2001).]

JetHeat: good question - I've been pondering over it for a while. As anyone who has flown with the USAF on exch will tell you, they do things so completely different from the UK it's hard to make a comparison. Lack of flexibility is the biggest difference in training between the two. Believe it or not, the USAF guys can recite virtually word perfect all their relevant manuals, procedures, 60-16, etc. Whether it means anything to them is another question. But that's the point brought up by (TowerDog, I think) - is any of the information gleened on the UK ATPL subjects recalled or much use to your average 744 driver in the middle of the night over Nikolaievsk?

I think not. Most of it is so out of date it's laughable. ("you line up on Narita RWY 16 where the local variation is 12 east; what do you set your DG to?" Seriously - that was a UKATP nav Question I remember bursting out giggling to). So this begs the question - if you know this stuff, does that make you a more knowledgable pilot in today's glass cockpit environment? Would intimate tech knowledge of your a/c type be more relevent? I think so, and on this point the US crews score well.

I've addressed the handling question in a previous post.

Knowledge of the various rules and regs around the world is also important, and on this the US crews are very average. This is partly because the FAA emphasises checking on domestic routes by it's inspectors, probably due to budget constraints. But the big 3 are working dilligently to improve this. Remember, most of the pilots at AA, for example, didn't have ANY Europe flying until they bought TWA's routes in the late 80's. Nugget Euro-pilots are more used to travelling into strange FIR's at an earlier stage.

As you progress in your career, you'll find you recall less and less of the ATP theory, because you don't use it, and mostly it's not relevant. You'll wonder why they ever made you go through a lot of it, and why they let ex-navs set the questions.

Oh, JetHeat, one more thing I forgot to add:

The pilot that used oral-boxing and sun-angle to find the lost delivery pilot was on e Capt Vette of Air New Zealand ,I flew with his son at Cathay ( he's a Capt there ). I don't think his Dad was an admirer of Pom Atp theory, either. Only a keen amateur navigator. One of aviation's brilliant moments, and not likely to be repeated by a UK wooly-pully pilot in a GPS-equipped 310 - no matter how good his theoretical knowledge.

Interesting to note the situation at SV some years ago on the TriStar. Three ex-GF (all Brits) Captains joined and had a VERY difficult time as they had not handled their own throttles and hand flown at the same time. Same situation years later at UL. They could not fly well BUT their theoretical knowledge was quite good, and they all could watch the aircraft do a CAT III approach without difficulty. The Saudi's were not impressed (and rightly so IMHO).

Boys! You can put aside all your great pilots from America, Britain, Japan and elsewhere because it is so obvious that the very best pilots flying todays's modern airliners under God's beautiful blue sky are none other than the ex-officers and gentlemen of the Irish Army Air Corps. Ireland's finest to be sure!

------------------
What we want is a bit of Pop Music, none of this Beethoven!!

What a load of absolute rubbish!!

I can tell the lot of you that American pilots are as good if not better than many of the so called expert Brits and Europeans.

Having spent 7 years flying in the United States I found the level of professionalism and overall competence of many pilots to be without question of a very high standard.

Lets not forget that unfortunate UAL crew that had to fly an aircraft without hydraulic power into Sioux City a few years ago. Its widely acknowledged that this particular AMERICAN crew handled the situation brilliantly. Simulator tests subsequently showed that the aircraft was virtually uncontrollable.

This horsesh@#t nonsense about who or what system produces better pilots is something that only serves to demonstrate the fact that many pilots and not just Americans have a serious ego problem.

There are countless examples of absolute stuffups by crew from all parts of the world. The Brits have killed their fair share of happless passengers over the years.

So wake up and smell the coffee we are all as bad or as good as one another.

NB: One notable exception is Australia, where there have been no jet fatalities in its entire history of commercial aviation.
The only fatalities occured on some British designed and built aircraft that had a nasty habit of shedding wings. Viscounts is what they called them!!

So lets get on with the business of aviation and respect for one another, and leave the pissing contest alone!

I really don't care if I'm not as well educated as a UK pilot, as long as I enjoy my job and my paycheck clears twice a month!

One thing I do know is that UK pilots get hosed both paywise and by the tax man!

Fly safe and remember that a pilot is not management.

The Yanks always will have a bad image in Britain, no matter what happens, but I'm now getting the impression that ALL pilots are just stuck up pompous gits, that have so much time, they can argue in circles about this thread. IT DOESN'T MATTER, you all get from A to B safely, or you couldn't be posting anyway. As for that, its us Air Traffic'ers that get you there safely 99% of the time, and your fancy on-board computer the other 1% when we mess up. I'd love a job getting paid for 8 hours, when all the work takes 5 mins. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Try telling that to the many hundreds of pax and crew that have died over the years due to mid airs or being vectored into Cb's or terrain.
I guess ATC played no part in the Canary Islands the day two 747s lay smouldering on the runway!

Tommy Turbine,

Shut up! You don't know what you're talking about. The Tenerife accident was not ATC's fault. The KLM took-off without clearance. Big time co*k-up by an experienced training captain!

Avman,

There is no need to be like that!
I remember this accident quite clearly and I do recall that the blame was placed on the KLM skipper but that there were many other contributing factors.

Some of the phraseology that was used by ATC on that fateful day left a lot to be desired.

I seem to remember that there was a lot of confusion about whether the KLM crew thought they were cleared for takeoff or whether they were to expect takeoff clearance as they were lining up.

In any event what I was trying to demonstrate was that accidents can occur because of many systemic failures forming error chains.

In other words we all have a duty of care,pilots and controllers alike to the people who place their lives in our hands.

It is with this thought in mind that I take exception to criticism by controllers aimed squarely at pilots.

Relax and have a cup of coffee or something!!

Hey TT,

You need to reread the transcripts on Tenerife. The KLM FO was well aware that they were not cleared for takeoff.

KLM has tried to avoid blame, to this day, they still point their fingers at ATC. Captain Van Zandt was their poster boy, but apparently not the easiest guy to get along with.

"We go now!"

411A,

SV don’t have CATIII approval, so I guess that those British pilots were watching some other airline!

Mutt :)