Heathrow Thread
 

Yesterday evening at 17.42 hrs I watched a Sri Lankan A340 take off from LHR 27 L and turn almost eastward without crossing the M25 ! Amazing. Would they have been asked by ATC to do that ?

They might have done... but the SID calls for the turn at 1nm DME, which is very close to the M25.

I once saw a Boeing 707, asked for an early left turn out, almost put its wingtip down one of the cargo cul-de-sacs! Quite spectacular.

Might have been Tex Johnson flying it !

You guys should get out more. If you go to Chicago O'Hare you'll see just about every departure make a 90 degree turn by the time they're overhead the airport boundary.

I'll get out more !!

Dash 7s at EGLL
 

Hi,

On the subject of early turns:

I seem to recall that during the fairly brief period that British Midland operated DHC 7s out of EGLL they would routinely turn left in the climb somewhere over the mid-point of 27L ! (probably 28L at the time) and climb out over the Cargo area; I can only assume by special arrangement.

Interestingly, the Brymon guys did not tend to do the same thing.

Even the A380 does it from time to time ..... this was a few days ago (27th Sept) ......

http://homepage.eircom.net/~corkradar/DSCN7809.jpg

It's even more fun from the pointy end.
At the old Osaka airport, the noise abatement procedure developed by PanAm (and used by SQ) was left hand pylon turns at 200 feet on the Tokyo Fire and Marine insurance building when the DME was unserviceable.
In a 707...great fun, indeed:E

A Sri Lankan A343 lost an engine on take off from ZRH yesterday, see rumours and news.:8

Going out of JFK,[can't remember which runway] Concorde used to bank almost as soon as the wheels left the tarmac. We were always warned in advance but it was a complete non event [other than the unusual attitude] as Concorde always felt like it was flying on rails wherever it was pointing. Noise abatement profile I think. :) Ah Concorde!!!!!
Aviate 1138

@Navy_Adversary: the incident discussed in rumours and news didn't happen yesterday, but on 5th September 2004 ;)

Infamous SXM St Maarten. Runway 2 km long, 300 m tall hill 2 km directly off normal departure end of runway. A right turn out over the sea required by all including the 747s with fuel to reach Europe. Do they really fly nonstop to Europe or is there a stop at PTP/FDF,etc?
http://www.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!/open.file/1031321/M/

The A.F. 340's are weight restricted - approx only 70% and do CDG direct.
As far as I know, KLM 74's tech stop - they only have short turn round and climb out very well.
No idea what Corsair do.

Well it was off track on the DVR NPR. But picked the centre line up around Laleham. :ugh:

And it did cross the M25, all 8 lanes, but never made the Wraysbury resevoir!
:ok:

I'm sure you're right, I was on junction 14 at the time, and it looked a close call as to whether it crossed. Now then, being a humble PPL, what's a DVR NPR ?

NPR = Noise Preferential Route. Basically it follows the SID, and is a corridor 3km wide. Aircraft are requested to follow the NPR, until 4000ft, where they can then be given a heading.

The Sri Lanka was on (actually off ) the 27LDVR NPR.

Olney2D..

Re Brymon Dash-7's.... I think due to the nature of the destination (PLH/NQY) and the speed of the aircraft, to avoid holding everything up, it was a general slow and low climb off 27L or R towards SAM or sometimes a direct low routing out of the London TMA pending other traffic.

Bells are beginning to ring a bit.. well, just a gentle tinkle! I don't recall any Dash-7 going out low-level, and thereby leaving CAS. However, such aircraft were not subject to noise abatement so, with agreement from the TMA, we'd often turn them onto a heading to get them clear out of the way - usually around 250, depending on wind, was enough. They'd then continue to climb out on that heading whilst we launched a few north and westbound departures to use up a few minutes until it was safe to continue with SFD and DVR SIDs.

There has been a lot of wx avoiding with LHR deps recently, which often includes early turns to avoid cells painting on the wx radar as aircraft line up.

(I am guessing that this is the case) :)

I was going to mention Wx avoidance. Was pretty messy yesterday afternoon with showers still around at tea time. Deps Changed over from 09R to 27L at 1505hrs local.

There is a system problem for departures from 27L. Modern aircraft fly on lateral navigation modes sequencing waypoints one by one. Dover (DVR4G) and Detling SIDs out of 27L are prescribed as follows: Climb straight ahead, passing DME1 ILL (associated with ILS 27L) turn left to intercept track 140 deg.

In UK it is common to have only one DME transciever for both ILS on one piece of concrete (two runways). Such dme station will be electronically biased to indicate value 0 (zero) at runway thresholds, the position of the transciever being at the exact midpoint between thresholds.

Now, the DVR/DET SID is perfactly flyable on any aircraft equipped with DME interrogator, starting with C-150. However modern jet transprts equipped with FMS navigation fly waypoint chain as described above. Unlike on other SIDs based on ILS dme turn, (except Gatwick 26L) UK AIP does NOT provide the cooridantes of the initial turn point. Hence, the database provider (Jepp in my outfit) will try to re-code the coordinates into a waypoint themselves.

What happened in this very case, is that the first waypoint is coded as D274A - first hint!!! It essentially means that the fix is referenced to a radio station, bearing 274 (rwy heading) and distance 1 NM. But wait, ILL dme is electronically biased!

Indeed, 09R and 27L pavement is 3660m long, i.e. 2 NM. DME reads zero at thresholds, the bias is approx 0,9 NM. (09R threshold displaced by approx 300m). The DVR/DET sid procedure ask pilots to turn at 1 DME reading, this being approximately 1,9 NM from the radio aid position.

My theory is that Jepp people missed the bias and their waypoint D724A is in fact 1 NM from the DME position.

Analysis:
1 degree of longitude at equator is 1855.4m, quite close to 1852m = 1 NM. At 51 deg latitude (LHR 27L, essentially east/west direction) 1 degree represents 1 NM * cos (51deg). This gives 1'35,4'' per NM.

Coordinates of 09R threshold (where dme 09R - IBB reads zero, the same radio station as ILL) are W000 28' 56,49''. Add to this one mile distance (truning point as per procedure) and the turning point coordinates are 000 30' 31'29''.

On the other hand, when you add one mile to the DME ILL/IBB coordinates, you get W000 29' 08,26''. (about 0,2 NM past threshold).
What are the coordinates of D274A? According to Jepp database W000 29' 06.88''. (Honeywell Airbus database, Honeywell Boeing coordinates are different, but VERY close)

Based on my less than precise geometry, D274A is about 1700m short of turn-point coordinates as calculated above, but only 180m (about three times runway width) past the DME station+1NM position.

Case study:
about a week ago my A320 tried to turn at D274A waypoint, but the DME indication was only 0,2D.:=


Conclusion:
UK AIP does not provide cooridnates of 1 DME ILL turn out of EGLL27L, the waypoint coding is incorrect. Until Jepp realises the error (message on the way) or UK publish coordinates to remove any ambiguity (in most cases they do, apart from 27L LHR and 26L GTW) lateral navigation modes based on Jepp coding must not be used for first turn on DVR/DET departures 27L Heathrow.

Always at your disposal,
FD
(the Ivan from East Europe)

professional replies please here: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...40#post2904040

<<DME transciever>>

Just being pedantic - I think you mean transmitter?

Cannot comment on the core of your post, but remember that unless the WP is coded in your database as a 'flyover' an FMC will turn early with a turn of 130 degrees for the next track. This is a very common problem with those who insist on LNAV handling for complicated and close-in turns.

HD - I think FD is right! The a/c 'interrogates' the station and the distance is measured on response return time.

OK thanks BOAC and apologies to FD. I thought I knew at least the basics of most radio aids but I was sure in the dark this time.

If you have any doubt about the waypoint check it in the database. you can call up the lat and long and plot it.

HEATHROW DIRECTOR - I knew it was something like that, the cells are a little rusty. Thanks for reminding me. Not a pilot but worked in Brymon Ops years ago and sat on the jumpseat many times climbing out towards the setting sun and launching from two thirds down the length. One Capt got reprimanded @ CDG after being given immediate takeoff clearance whilst on the high speed turnoff and was airborne before entering the runway! Good ol days!

The waypoint is fly-over, left turn, course-to-fix and lateral navigation guidance follows the track precisely in this case. Incorrect waypoint position seems to be the problem here. The plotting proof is excelent idea - however I cannot do it on-line.:* Take the map, plot the waypoint, and see how far it is from the threshold. DME reads about 0,2 in aircraft, I calculate it is 0,11 NM past 09R displaced threshold.

Picture now here. :ok:

Finnair MD11 today Heathrow
 

We were given the pleasure of OH-LGG today passing thru LHR on the way to Paris. It departed around 1000hrs local this morning as Finnair 4831.
Was this a charter? Odd routing, Odd flightnumber and strange to see Finnair MD11s over here!

Finnair is having to rejig its flights due to the cabin crew strike. Flights are being combined and or cancelled to ensure there are enough crew. My guess is the MD11 was one of these 'combined' flights.

It was operating HEK-LHR-CDG-HEL. Hope this helps.

I understand the strike continues tomorrow so should see another MD11 on a similar routing

FC

FIN MD11 20oct
 

hi

On acars MD11 48780 OH-LGE was showing on the Heathrow run today

FIN 831\832 . 20TH OCT 2006

Tony

BRU also had an MD11 today.

Routing was HEL-BRU-CDG-HEL

Was in BCN today and one noted arriving at 1110 local also

Gss @ Lhr
 

Hi

just got back from Heathrow and saw a Global suppy system 744F land. I thought they fly to STN anybody know why they flew to heathrow and from where.

CX256

If it's the one that landed at 1145, it came from LYS.
Wouldn't be surprised if it was flying Beaujolais into the UK.

Understand next GSS is in this evening (1830 ish, out 2100ish), same load

Yes they were indeed Bojo shuttles. EMA have some later today as well.

Lufty Cargo MD11 at Heathrow 14/11
 

MD11 D-ALCC has recently arrived at Heathrow as GEC8281. It diverted in & was originally planned into East Midlands

Fried Chicken