Smoking on the flight-deck
 

I have recently begun my career as an airline pilot with the big Irish mob and in most respects love my job-- lots of flying, great aircraft and destinations but one thing spoils it for me! About 20% of the Captains smoke on the flight deck -- continuously! And if that isn't bad enough some of them smoke cigars and also invite the cabin crew up to join them for a fag in flight! A few of them ask me if I mind but on the one occasion that I objected it ruined the working day as the guy then gave me a hard time from then on! Rather naively I had assumed that all smoking stopped on aircraft many years ago so this down-side to my new occupation was unexpected. The 737 flightdeck is a tiny office and I go home feeling as if I have chain-smoked a whole packet myself! ( I have never voluntarily smoked a single cigarette in my life!) Is this common with most UK airlines or is Ryanair unusual in this regard.
They put out a Memo to pilots some years ago but no-one seems to take any notice. Talking to some of my other FO friends I am told that they suffer the same problem but our positions as FO's in this rapidly expanding operation are too exposed for us to do anything. Any suggestions???

ISTR that your employer has a duty of care to provide you with a smoke free environment.

May be time to mention this to Human Resources and let them tackle it.

FD

Sounds to me like the company is opening themselves up for litigation in the event that a non-smoking employee develops a smoking-related illness.

Is it legal to smoke in an aircraft there f_a? It is ILlegal to smoke ANYWHERE onboard an aircraft in many countries now.

Aside from the health reasons mentioned previously (along with the liability of the company, the responsibility of which is entrusted to the Captain of each flight, and who therefore may possibly be held PERSONALLY responsible at some future date for allowing this to happen), there is the STINK.

Smokers STINK...their breath, their clothes, their hair.

Perhaps a letter to the Chief Pilot stating that you`ve noticed some of the company`s aircraft flight decks have a strong stink of tobacco and need deodorising, might do the trick!

Inconsiderate @ssholes!

Totally agree - how will they handle the claims for compensation from those who get lung cancer as passive recipients of the filth despatched from those that should know better.

Perhaps their medicals will be due soon and they will be despatched out of the system.

Unfortunately the ethos in this company is " stay invisible" if you want to go places. Virtually no FO would be be prepared to "raise his or her head above the parapet in case it gets shot off". Virtually every FO that I talk to hates this imposition but is too scared to risk his/her career by complaining or resisting the practise. Perhaps the discussion here will leak back to the management and bring about change! I can only live in hope as this is probably one of the worst features of the job!

Use the Oxygen & stop picking on smokers...would you rather have a cool captain or twitching wreck?

I know of two first officers who were given a hard time by the smokers. The company has a total ban on smoking on the aircraft.

The ban was not enforced.

The problem only resolved itself when the smokers retired.

MP;)

I've talked to some of my contemporaries in other UK (CAA) airlines and it seems that Flight Deck smoking has pretty much died out. In the case of FR the growth rate and relative anarchy of the operation seems to preclude any effective control. Personally-- I don't care if people smoke as long as it doesn't affect others. What amazes me in this situation is that the smokers consider it their right to inflict this filthy and dangerous habit on others such as myself. On top of that the flight decks can become dirty smelly places for the next crew taking over-- remember these aircraft only get cleaned once in 24 hours and even then not very thoroughly.

There are a couple of options.

Firstly, if you check, you will find that it is illegal to smoke airside at many airports. This includes on the aircraft. You could perhaps arrange a "spot check" to happen. Or you could mention this, in writing, to the company and ask if you are allowed to smoke or not.

Second, if the Captain wants to smoke, tell him that that is fine, but you will leave the flight deck for the duration.

Third, take up a foul smelling habit yourself. One good plan is to get a really strong smelling deodorant or aftershave and spray it about liberally either during or after the smoking.

This is a health and safety issue. You should perhaps query it again with the company, in writing, and ask them where you stand.

The company I work for used to allow smoking on the flight deck. It was then banned. And everyone managed to get through even long haul sectors without a cigarette.

Now the company I work for has banned smoking airside too, after one crew had a "spot check" and received a warning as it was illegal.

Some people go off to find a smoking area during turnround, but most don't. Some have taken the opportunity to reduce the amount they smoke or try to give up altogether. Some use patches. But most just cope with it.

Perhaps if someone is so addicted to a drug that they cannot function without it, then they shouldn't be flying?

Airbus Girl and others,

I think you have missed the point that f-a is trying to make. He may well be surrounded by an illegal act, but to report it to the management will ensure his dismissal. The horns of the dilemma that every honest whistle blower finds himself upon.

If you wish to end this problem then the first thing to do is not to appear to be concerned about it. If you are seen to be annoyed by smoke and there is a witch hunt to find out who has either contacted Pprune or the CAA then you will be assumed to be one of the possible perpetrators. It is simpler to sack a dozen to be safe than the one guy who did it. So stay low.

Check your local regulations. Is the non-smoking rule a CAA rule or a company rule? If CAA you have a case. (I use the term CAA to refer to your local legislative authority. Your acronyms may vary...)

If it is a law, I suggest that you talk to the CAA. I know many here will blast me for that but if there is one thing that yanks their chain it is the blatant breaking of a rule, as this most probably is. FOI's are pilots first and government employees second. They are remarkably approachable to a phone call that relates to rule breaking.

One problem you may have, if you call the flight operations inspectors of certain country's aviation authorities is that some of them are in the pockets of the biggest local airline or the local/national government. This may or may not be a concern with the people you are dealing with. If you think that the authority that you talk to drinks in the same bar as your boss, try another tack.

Another tack is your local 101 of any of the NGO anti smoking lobbies. They are good on procedure, and probably have on their books several cases against local companies who have failed to follow the law. You will be greeted by rabid anti smokers who may be a bit extreme for you, but they have their place.

I shall now go outside for a gentle cigar. Hypocrisy allows all the vices...

<Second, if the Captain wants to smoke, tell him that that is fine, but you will leave the flight deck for the duration.>
I think this is one of the best courses of action. Tell him that a smoky atmosphere gives you a headache and may induce a sinus attack and you cannot be present during smoking, or shortly afterwards. I sympathise- a very difficult position. I can remember in my early days on a 4 crew VC10- ex wartime Captain with his beloved pipe, old Copilot on a cigar, Flight Engineer chain smoking cigarettes, and me crying with stinging eyes and aching lungs! Bastards! Looking back, I should have stopped it stone dead there and then and let them do their worst! But you don't have to just sit there!

Certainly a difficult position.

I'm not entirely sure of regulations at the moment, but the Irish government is introducing a complete ban on smoking in the workplace from Jan 1st 04, hence smoking will even be banned in pubs etc. So from 1st Jan there should be no doubt.... Not that that makes it any easier to actually deal with.

Well at least I have generated some discussion. Obviously not many of you are aware of the way the FR works though. Now perhaps I need to get the Irish Press to start reading Ppune! I think there is no doubt that the practise is illegal and as I said the company has officially banned it BUT in FR this makes very little difference! I have not found a single FO prepared to join me in making a stand over it even though most of them detest the practise. Although the airline has its main base in the UK its pilots come from virtually every part of the world and of course this includes a lot of former Eastern bloc countries where smoking is endemic and CRM virtually unheard of!

You could see if saying "I don't mind if you smoke as long as I can open the window" has any deterent effect. :}

I am not a commercial pilot but am amazed that you can pass a class 1 medical with a drug addiction.

Is an addicted captain very safe if he has forgotton his pack of 20 and has to go a few hours without -'twitching' as someone said?

While the issue of smoking on the flightdeck (or any office for that matter) causes a big nuisance factor and potential health hazard which should be addressed by any Occupational Health and Management Team worth its salt, I would for the immediate future be more worried about your statement regarding the absence of CRM.

FD

I can't get over the hypocrisy! No doubt the 'No smoking' signs remain illuminated throughout all Ryanair flights, but that doesn't apply to the cockpit! Next time I'm stuck in the back surrounded by the great unwashed and gasping for a fag, it'll be even worse knowing that the crew may well be happily smoking up front. Either smoking is deemed a risk to the safety of the aircraft and is banned entirely whilst on the plane, or it isn't and you should be allowed to smoke anywhere or in designated smoking areas while in the cruise.

Well, if pilots were recruited exclusively from the ranks of people that didn't smoke, or drink alcohol, tea, coffee, or coke then we'd probably not have very many of 'em!

I've been looking for an NTSB report but I couldn't find it.


Two guys come in to land (in a 172 I think) and the pilot puts it down heavily. They hear a glugging sound from the back, only to notice...this gas can they were carrying :confused: has fallen over :ooh:

Well it's obviously not such a good idea to have gasoline sloshing around your aircraft, so the passenger reaches back to stand it upright again :)

Trouble is, he has a cigar in his hand :uhoh:

Whoosh! :mad:

They had to jam the brakes on and make a run for it :}

The aircraft was a write off though :ugh: :ouch:

There is new legislation coming into Ireland early next year, the dates have not yet been fully confirmed but Jan 1 is the kick-start date.

The laws are anti-smoking laws and have been much in discussion lately over here. The anti-smoking laws are more than likely being expanded into the workplace, which should bail the FR FO's !!

Unfortunately though, enforcement of this law will be the stumbling block.


BTW:
(I can't see how FR would have a clear out of a few FO's as mentioned previously, just cos someone has a grievance with a smoking captain, there are ways of confidential reporting )

mmmm thinks back over all those "a couple-a-smokes wont kill me folks"

one by one I watched em die... and they never went fast. The lucky ones have emphasema or had a stroke... if you call it lucky.

The modern cigarette is a stick full of chemicals, a far cry from the tobacco of old. Given the increasing number of areas were being closed to smokers, even my paramedic friends are giving up... not for their health, but for the lack of places to smoke.

The bigger worry I see is alcohol. That stuff in abnormal quantities is a death trap, and again, hard to give up once addicted and the results of a drinking binge and driving home are often fatal. There are many social indescretions also arising from overconsumption. but I digress....

I think "fine", if a person wants to smoke, as long as they show consideration for those around them. boozing and killing someone is unforgivable.

I have the feeling that given enough pressure, the cockpit inhabitants of the aforementioned airline will suffer lungfuls of smoke unless they recruit outside help. One person used to send a chest xray to his company after he had a chat to his doctor. Each xray would come up relatively clean. There came a time when a massive chest infection left his lungs filled with matter which showed up during the xray. The company was pertinant enough to get the hint and banned smoking, as the doctors report stated - male nonsmoker with bronchial lesions possibly precancerous query due to secondary smoking in workplace environment. Very brave of both of them.

Kick up a stink...!
 

Why not play them at their own game. While they are smoking open up a box of the smelliest Egg and Fish sarnies (or whatever concuction) you can.

Or while you alone..sneak a smoke alarm on!

(Very childish I know and not very constructive but I hope you get it resolved soon!)

Going by the amount of ash I see overflowing from the officially unused ashtray on the left side of the 738 cockpits for that certain Irish airline, there is either a small number of chain smokers amongst the Captains or a few VERY heavy smokers!! In this day and age I find it unbelievable that a Captain could be so selfish ( and addicted) that he or she would inflict this habit on an unwilling copilot. For those of you not familiar with Mr Boeing's best selling aircraft-- the cockpit is the size of a small broom cupboard! Since seeing this thread I have asked quite a few of the copilots and it seems that we have quite a number of extremely selfish Captains-- even including some training Captains who should know better!

Great news-- FR management must read this! A new notice has just come out making all Ryanair aircraft rigidly NO-SMOKING areas. This will of course also mean no more "quick fags" on the turnrounds for cabin crew either. Perhaps time to buy those patches?

Apart from the obvious health risks/issues what about the FIRE risk caused by smoking on the flight deck, not to mention the distraction if a cigarette gets dropped on the floor etc?

I find it most disappointing that this should be raised as an issue after all the CRM training that is now prominent.

Captains who insist on smoking on the flight deck should NOT be Captains!!

The issue of FOs being afraid to make an issue of this matter through fear of reprisals etc is far more serious that the issue of smoking on the flight deck and speaks volumes about the manner in which operations are conducted, in my opinion.

In short, a serious flight safety issue which needs dealing with at the highest level.

This is quite a difficult situation.

I'm actually quite shocked at the ignorance and arrogance of those involved.

If you protest in flight and feel you are treated differently as a result, you could make a submission to CHIRP. Hopefully the offenders would read the article and realise how much of a **** they had been.

Where are the FR aircraft registered? Forgetting all the anti smoking health and safety stuff for a moment is it not just downright illegal?

Has prune been targeted by the anti smoking lobby. What a load of crap has been posted.
Fire risk zilch.
Passive smoking zilch according to latest research.
No smoking means lower cleaning bill and a/c filter changes.
Easy enough to schedule two smokers on the flight deck

Latest statistics also show that lung cancer is the most common type of cancer among European men. That ridiculous "survey" that purported to state that passive smoking was not detrimental to non-smokers was sponsored by the cigarette industry! I think it will not be long until addiction to tobacco will prevent one from holding a Class 1 medical! Ireland is about to ban all smoking in public places and it now seems that Ryanair has decided to extend this to their aircraft-- Great news!

For me It still comes back to the lack of CRM... cockpit gradient etc. FOs should have the balls to stand up to these captains and Captains should be nothing other than plain bloody CIVIL! Chatting to smoker friends, even they say smoke in confined areas is hard to swallow:sad: Eyes affected, Sinus problems etc. All this from people who are used to the Drug... I can only sympathise with these FOs. But in all honesty... Brutally honest here... Stand up to them, winging on this page is not where your fight should start. If you're not head strong enough to simply ask someone to refrain from smoking, which is polite and sensible, Then go fly single pilot ops...
Power went to my head then...:E
Maybe just a chat on the ground would suffice?
Good Luck with it all...
Ps I am on your side honest!!

fmc_apprentice, I SO understand and empathize with you. I myself have just started my career as FO and some of the captains smoke too! :( :( Usually, when they ask me if I mind (obviously expecting a "no"-answer), I reply, "One, here and there won't bother me", kind of implying that I DO mind the smoking but at the same time I am tolerant of one or too. When I get home my hair and clothes are stinking of smoke and after a long flight I usually get a headache. Leaving the flight deck is a very good idea, and one which I haven't tried yet, however, what to do with a chain smoker? Stay in the loo all the flight?

Another consideration which hasn't been given...I believe some companies allow female first officers to fly till they are a few months pregnant. Will any consideration be given by these captains, in these cases? Or do they end up "twitching wrecks"?

DSR10, I think you do not know how invasive cigarette smoke is to a non-smoking person. Us non-smokers are not "picking" on smokers but just asking for a compromise.

pilotpilot, good answer.

Forgive the intrusion from a passenger but is not the air on the flight deck circulated and re-circulated around the aircraft?

If so would I be breathing in contaminated air in the event of a member of the flight crew smoking, or is the air filtered in some way to remove the filth?

MV-- yes you are partly right-- the degree of recirculation depands apon the model of 737. Passengers do notice the smell of cigarette smoke sometimes leaving the cabin cew with some difficult lies to tell!

My elation at the recent move by FR management over the smoking issue was short lived! My FOs tell me the bulk of smoking Captains have completely ignored the recent instruction (FCI). Maybe the next move will have to be sponsored addiction therapy by the company! Only yesterday I flew a 737 with an overflowing ashtray on the left side!

As a sixty a day addict I used to light up and chain smoke as soon as I hit the cruise, the a/c was also equiped with an ashtray and lighter, aircon was by sliding back the canopy.
However I gave up two years ago and am very tolerent of smokers and how difficult it is, I still crave and if I was told my life was terminal I would be back on the B&H straight away.

"the bulk of smoking captains have completely ignored the recent instruction".

This is frightening. What other rules do these captains think don't apply to them?

It doesn't say much for their command skills either if they are prepared to compromise the authority of their cabin staff who have to try and prevent the pax smoking.

The addiction does seem to affect the integrity of some smokers.

Alternately, perhaps it shows precisely the sort of "command authority" neccesary to fly a highly complex piece of equipment. To wit, the ability to sort out the important things from the niggling demands of a nattering nanny state mentality. :D

(*puff* *puff*)

TRF4EVR-- that is about the worst answer I've seen yet-- so you are suggesting that to be a good Captain one needs to be a totally selfish egocentric? Safety has improved in recent years - partly due to reduced cross-cockpit gradient-- where does your model Captain fit ?? Face it-- Smoking is Drug addiction and people need treatment-- forcing the side products of that addiction on another person does nothing to improve aircraft safety! In most countries smoking on aircraft at ANY time is illegal, so anyone continuing to smoke is breaking the law, quite apart from any related health issues!

Smoking on the flight deck, great idea if all the crew members smoke, then by all means smoke away. (In some companies, smoking in the cockpit is almost like being back behind the bike sheds at school all over again. And equally as risky!)
However, I have only one thing to state to all you smokers, ENSURE YOU CLEAN UP AFTER YOURSELVES (ie empty the F*****G ashtrays), because cleaning up someone elses mess after a flight is revolting enough, let alone having to clean up your cigarette ends from the ashtrays. By the way, if you are flying with a non smoker, and you ask, "Do you mind if I smoke?" This is like asking your flight deck companion, "Do you mind if I take a S**T in my flight bag?" (and leave it there for the rest of the flight!) Yep, the smell of S**t is pretty much the same/as bad as the smell of burnt tobacco is to some people.
To conclude, CRM isn't just checklist and call outs!
Enjoy.

Well said flat-spot. I don't smoke around people (or at least professional acquaintances) that don't themselves light up, and so obviously I wouldn't "inflict" my "addiction" upon an FO (if I had one).

Having said that, I don't curb myself due to some dubious "health" issues that have yet to be proven by even the loosest definition of the word, and I take a rather dim view of the crusading ninnies of the world who take it upon themselves not only to classify any behavior that they don't themselves engage in as "dangerous" or "defective" in one way or another, but to see to it that these behaviors are eliminated post-haste "for the good of all".

How bout *you* face it vertical speed. An inquisitorial attitude backed up with suspect "facts" toward people that don't live their lives in lock-step with your personal preferences is a Serious Disease, and one that Requires Treatment.