Dear Flyer75,

Arrogant cowboys, no-one needs them. How do you expect to hear things like TCAS when you are listening to your 'fav cd'???

Interesting post but so long as your Government sells the farkin' things, and may I point out make a pretty penny, fark-off an talk to your MP.
Don't blame the poor sucker whose being raped by the corporates,government and supporting your health service with a drug thats sanctioned and distuributed for the last century. That said nicotine patches are available.

F***in hey man...

Flyboyben....cowboy...me?..pretty close..used to fly from wyoming to jfk quite often...but left the buckle when i came back to europe..and the snowboards gloves as the thrust levers used to get my fingers stick to them because of the cold in winter dakotas...

Anyways..whats that bull about being arrogant...I had great fun flying that way...no A/P to have to discoonect,TCAS which was linked to the VSI(only one metro had it)was 80% broke anyways...

If you fly pal look out the WINDOW,its much more fun and you may enjoy your flying..

I used my cd as the AM frequencies gave me mostly country music and some Elvis...which is nice and calming when coming back on sat morning but before an ils to the deck..that is 100ft RAD ALT for us,at 200ft we look ,at 150 we start adding power and 100ft if nothing around were out of there...works pretty well...used friends to come with me to look out the window,much easier than looking up and down all the time...thats what friends or gfriends are for...

Anywas ,i presume you are english....go somewhere do some single pilot freight or bush flying youll fart better...

Flyer75

Just highlights some people's naivity; I had no idea that smoking still continued on the flight deck. As a passenger I just assumed that the entire plane would be non-smoking. In fact, the flight deck ESPECIALLY so.

Anyway, to add my thoughts, I am a smoker but would hate to work in such confined quarters with somebody chuffing away. Wouldn't light up myself or expect anyone else to. I might sound hypocritical but there is a time and a place.

Having said that, I'm flying Ryanair in a few months time, do you think the captain would mind if I nip up to the cockpit to have a smoke with my Stella?

Dear Passenger,

You are now boarding "FreightDogAnonymous". Thank you for joining us today..the weather in Fargo will be somewhat chilly with gusts to 40 kts and temps of -40C.

As I operate alone, any PAX is welcome to coma and visit for a fag.
Please let me remind you to keep your seatbelt fastened for unexpected turbulence along the way and C172 f*** around the terminal area...
If you have a Stella you can always drink but i will to decline any offers as im short legged and so seated less than 8 inches from the "throttle"

If you have any questions about your Ryan Air flight/pilots, you may enter their website but may have to pay their fee of 30 GB even if you are rated on the ship.

Hope you enjoy your flight with captain "RED EYE" today...

By the way he needs some coffee,1 milk,2 sugars...

Tailwinds,

Flyer75

Marlboro lights to be exact....

While i have not a doubt in my mind that cigarettes are a BAD BAD thing....I do go to the gym,which I know wont cure a potential cancer....(smoking 10 a day since 4 years,i believei still ahve time to quit).
You boys will understand that freight flying includes being woken up at 3 in the morning to drive through a blizzard,load the freight ,fuel the plane and hope the airport manager doesnt close the snowy runway just before you t/o...he closed as I rotated actually ..funny huhh...anyways point is having a cig right after waking up put my mind into gear and somehow woke me up...i like a casual smoke and enjoyed doing it in the ship...the owner was the first to do it and the mechs were just bothered if we forgot to empty the ashtrays...

Capito?

Dr Phil - would that be research by real doctors or ones who simply put a Dr in front of their name?
BTW, you wouldn't be an ex-heavyweight boxer writing this in a room with rubber walls would you? You need to calm down mate - have a fag.

Sorry to hear the problem still goes on. I had the same problem on the Herc Fleet some years ago. My solution was to go off the flight deck until they stopped smoking, until two older guys(bullies) lit up King Teds.I stayed off the flight deck for 45 minutes, made them work for a living balancing the fuel etc, though i did have my headset on down the back. Only to be reported to my boss when we arrived back at base! Got a right roasting over it. RHIP. Though I,d like to meet them in a pub now! the contents of my pint may not stay in the glass too long.
I hope you remember this Bill and Al, you made my life a misery.

Modify checklists?
 

Perhaps you could make your point by a request to have the smoke in cockpit check list modified to include, "request fight deck crew to extinguish smoking materials then recheck for smoke"

Had you not indicated you wanted to keep your job i'd have just suggestted initiating the existing check list everytime somone lights up. Afterall, can you be sure the only source of smoke is the cigarette? :}

Good luck getting this resolved.

What a lovely post! Sure to attract well meaning replies about the risks of smoking, litigation, foul smelling flight decks, drug addicted pilots - fantastic!

I've never flown with anyone with the balls to light up in the flight deck,. In fact, I think I only know of 2 Capts who smoke.

I used to smoke, but for sensible reasons I gave it up - not an easy thing to do but it's going well so far - 6 months.

When I used to smoke in the car I was always worried about it smelling afterwards so I used to crack the window open - maybe the you should ask the capt to do that.

But seriously, it isn't going to be long before the smoking pilots will all have gone, or failed their medicals, so it might help your promotion prospects if they smoke. Go and buy them a packet of woodbines! You are experiencing a piece of history - a smelly one, and bad for you I admit - but it's something to tell your grandchildren about. You're probably damaging yourself worrying about it. Chill out.

Mowgli-- you have obviously forgotten what it is like to sit in the tiny 737 flight-deck with THREE others puffing away!! The FO's who began this thread tell me that this still happens! The argument put out by those who tolerate it is that these captains have been smoking for years and could not operate otherwise! From the amount of ash I still see around the nose-steering wheel it hasn't abated yet! I'm told that one particular gent doesn't even go through the pretence of asking first! I spent many years as an FO with a well known UK airline where most of the Captains smoked all the time and not just cigarettes but cigars and pipes! I hated it and suffered more coughs and colds than I ever do now-- but that was over 15 years ago! Times have changed or haven't they?

So, this is the way it works, is it?

Captains can do whatever they like, first officers cower in the right hand seat putting up with all sorts of nonsense for the first part of their career until they get promoted to the exhalted position of captain at which point they can do whatever they like and their own first officers have to cower in the right hand seat putting up with all sorts of nonsense until they get promoted....and so on and on.

I cannot believe - perhaps simply don't wish to believe - that airlines foster a culture of laissez faire and cover your arse. Are you all seriously trying to tell me that the industry is in such a state that a first officer (someone who, I'd quite like to think, is well educated, professional and with more than a couple of brain cells to rub together) would be too intimidated to report serious breaches of SOPs and of the law? Do they really run the risk of dismissal for dealing - professionaly - with someone who endangers the aircraft?

You're all having a laugh. Must be.

smoking
 

just leave the cockpit when old smokey lites up!!..probably most airlines have a post 911 requirement to replace a crewmember with a flight attendant when one leaves....you don't get smelly, he gets to smoke, and a step or two closer to the flight ops office if the f/a cops him in...which is all self imposed!!......unless of course the f/a likes a puff up stairs, but you're not in the cockpit so who cares.....

Lawyerboy
"..... serious breaches of SOPs and of the law" ? "..... someone who endangers the aircraft" ?
:confused:

"Do they really run the risk of dismissal .... etc?"

No. They run the risk of getting on the wrong side of someone whose support/favourable comments they may need in due course. Or of being regarded as someone who reports colleagues for relatively minor breaches of SOPs - depending upon your point of view.

"the industry in such a state"?
Is it so very different from the position of young lawyers (also "well educated, professional and with more than a couple of brain cells to rub together") starting out on their careers?

Flying Lawyer

It is my honour to point out that yr a pratt of the highest order.

smoking on the flight deck a "minor point"?

Plus, why all the debate about should or shouldn't people smoke on the flight deck? SOP's will state that smoking is not allowed so.........(and here's the tricky bit) SMOKING IS NOT ALLOWED!

Am just waiting for this subject to appear in the national press. Yet another kick for aviation. Well done ryanair

FL - as it happens, yes I do think it is different.

If I make a mistake, someone will lose money. I may lose my job over it, if it is serious enough.

If a commercial pilot makes a mistake there is a risk that someone will lose their life.

The fact that there appears - to an outside at least - to be a culture of 'no no, better not say anything for fear of hurting my career prospects' in the airline industry is a cause for concern. Let us, for the sake of argument, suppose that smoking on the flight deck is a relatively minor infraction (and for the record I do not think it is); if the public at large become aware that certain flight crew can breach such minor regulations and break the law whenever they, in their infinite wisdom, think it appropriate to do so what confidence can the public have that flight crew won't go around breaching more important regulations? Sticking rigidly to SIDs, for example, or not drinking within the 8 hour 'bottle to throttle' window.

The fact is that those who light up in the cockpit aren't Dan Dare types who with a wink and a slap of the thigh can say 'to hell with the book, I'm going to do it my way!' and run off to defend God and the American Way coming back to a hero's welcome. They are professional pilots who are breaking the law and endangering their aircraft and the lives of those in it and under it. But the fact that there are those of you out there with commercial licences who say either 'leave well alone, or who knows what might happen to your career prospects,' or even worse 'leave well alone, you miserable tree huggers,' frankly astonishes me.

It's a relief to me that I won't have to pay for that MCC course after all. I just have to be weak enough to meekly accept an overbearing, rule breaking captain until it's my turn to be one myself.


Edited for extra sarcasm

Just a thought - but the clever guy who starts "Smokers Airline" must be able to make a fortune. ;)

Shall we call that airline.."fagair" or "cigair"?

Andu

I thought everone like you had retired?

Very Interesting Thread!!
As an occassional SLF and pilot I thought I would do a very strange thing. I will actually ask Ryanair, as a concerned SLF, wether smoking is permitted on the flight deck!!!
So - into the web site to find a way of contacting Ryanair to ask this very reasonable question.
Well 2 hours later and 3 international calls from South Africa, I learn that it is VERY DIFFICULT to complain or even ask Ryanair a question. The web site will tell you just about everything up to frying eggs on the wing, but to make a complaint???
Anyway it appears the only way to ask the question is by writting by post to HQ in Dublin. No email. No fax. No phone call.
Write and pop it in the ole post box.
So that is what I shall do. Look for my reply on Pprune in about 2 months if at all!!:* :(

Flying bean I think you need to get out more!!

Amazing series of replies on these 8 pages. I find it hard to understand why anyone would put up with smoking in the cockpit if there is a policy forbidding it. If you are a f/o or s/o use your CRM to explain the situation(stop or I am leaving at the next opportunity) to them and if they do begin to smoke then suffer through that flight and when the next landing takes place get off and call flt ops/crew schedules and asked to be replaced as smoke in the cockpit brings about allergies that may impact the safety of the flight. If it the f/o or s/o that smokes regardless inform him he will be removed from the flight at the next opportunity. In my 36 years career it has been my experience that those who flaunt one rule usually disregard others as well. Some of the SOPA for example, that can result in a lessening of flight safety. People who smoke in the cockpit against the policy are saying a lot about themselves, their character and how they deal with life in general....dishonestly. Get them out of the cockpit if they insist on smoking. I know nothing about Ryanair but I cannot imagine they would fire someone for removing themselves from flight duty because their abilities are compromised by a smoker in the cockpit.

Not often that I find myself agreeing 100% with a post from your side of the pond, michael744, but you're absolutely correct on this.:ok:

Ever thought of standing for President? Your country would greatly benefit from leadership with such positive messages!;)

Exactly, michael744.

Surely this is the central issue in this whole discussion.

I know nothing about Ryanair but I cannot imagine they would fire someone for removing themselves from flight duty because their abilities are compromised by a smoker in the cockpit.

People have been fired by MOL for less!

Corrected for spelling error!

trium16

Who is MOR???

Well if it were MOL...
 

He would be CEO of Ryanair.

MOL

But I don't know who MOR is...

I'm assuming that "behind_the_second_midland" and the other poster who criticized 'Andu' for his remarks are both smokers who find it unreasonable when people object to sharing their filthy habit in the close confines of a cockpit or in a restaurant.

After suffering all too many (like 'Andu', usually young female) FAs who insist on smoking while I'm trying to eat, I'm with you 100%, 'Andu'. I've asked a couple if they'd think it strange if someone wrapped a belt around their arm and produced a needle and started hitting up at the dinner table.

MTOW,

while I agree that 'suffering' the company of young, female FAs whilst eating at a restaurant must be a form of living hell :rolleyes: I don't think this thread is primarily about smokers. There are many habits which others find annoying (intolerant whingeing for example). As far as I'm concerned the CRM issues are more important -the Captain who seems to think that SOPs are for other people and the FO who's too weak to question him.

Strafer (ex-smoker).

I'd have to agree with you, 'strafer', that my post wasn't addressing the main point of the thread. But I was answering the posts of the two people who took exception to 'Andu's' comment.

As for 'suffering' the company of young females at dinner on overnights, I think too many people writing in on these serious issues write from the life they'd like to think they enjoy as (virtual?) airline pilots rather from any experience they actually 'enjoy' in the real world. Someone smoking while you try to eat a meal is pain in the proverbial, no matter how eye-pleasing the package that someone may (or may not) come in might be.

Back to the point of the thread, I agree that the most junior FO should be able to complain. However, I remember all too clearly from my time as an FO that too many companies have an unofficial corporate culture that inhibits a junior crewmember from making a valid complaint, particularly over a matter as emotive as smoking. Anyone who doesn't believe that should only take a lok at how many posts this thread has generated.

I think you've hit the nail on the head MTOW, the point about is, I think, the main point of concern. This is something which has contributed to crashes in the past and unless addressed, will do so in the future.

Ps the level of 'how eye-pleasing the package that someone may (or may not) come in might be' does make a difference to me. But then I'm easily led.

Tell Mr O Leary
 

I think he'll say something like "Open the window if you don't like it"
I do see your point, must be like sitting in a cupboard with a load of smokers

Smoking Doubles Risk of Heart Attack
 

Smoking ban good for the heart: study
Last Updated Wed, 02 Apr 2003 11:56:15
Copyright CBC

CHICAGO - Heart attacks in a Montana city were cut in half after an indoor smoking ban came into effect.


Dr. Richard Sargent and Dr. Robert Shepard presented their study in Chicago at a meeting of the American College of Cardiology.

The doctors say their study was the first to investigate what happens to public health when people stop smoking in public places.

"I'm glad someone finally noticed it," said Shepard. "This has probably been going on in every other community with a smoking ban."

The city of Helena, pop. 26,000, adopted a smoking ban last June and was in effect until December, when a legal challenge forced town council to drop the ban.

In that period, hospital admissions for heart attacks dropped from seven every month to three.

Both doctors are strong advocates of smoking bans. They say the Helena experience offers a clear indication that the change reduces the risk of heart attacks for smokers and non-smokers.

The American Heart Association says 35,000 non-smokers die each year from the effects of second-hand smoke. Smoke can trigger heart attacks because it raises blood pressure, increasing the risk of blood clots.

The study found:

• heart attacks dropped 75 per cent for smokers
• 67 per cent for former smokers
• 50 per cent for smokers

The doctors tracked heart attacks over the past four years in the area and compared it to the smoking ban period.

Shepard says the study needs to be replicated in a larger city like New York. The state of New York just imposed a ban on indoor smoking.

I'm an ex-smoker so have no agenda to push, but the above report is not medically sound.

1) Smoking might do a whole lot of nasty things to your body, but one thing it doesn't do is affect blood pressure.
2) A survey based on a drop from 7 to 3, is no kind of survey at all, especially when the biggest cause of heart attacks in the US (and UK) is diet (or lack thereof).
3) Smoking can contribute to heart disease over time, but accidently sniffing someone's second-hand Marlboro will not give you a heart attack. A six month public space ban would make no difference to anyone (medically, that is).

Beware of the banners. They're not doing it to help your health, they're doing it beacuse they don't like you enjoying it. And what you like, may well be next.

Well all this has been very interesting but my hopes of being able to work in a smoke-free flight-deck have come to nothing! The main culprits have totally ignored the restated ban and so far FR have done nothing to enforce it! I think it will need smoke alarms on the flight-deck connected to the FDR for any real change. Oh well, better buy my own oxygen bottle and mask! Thanks to all my supporters!

Strafer,

Agreed that a drop from 7 to 3 from one month to the next would have limited statistical significance, but when a monthly rate falls like that over a six month period the statistical significance is major.

"Well all this has been very interesting but my hopes of being able to work in a smoke-free flight-deck have come to nothing!"

Have you actually tried to do something about this fmc_apprentice other than moan on an anonymous forum? :rolleyes:

Gripping reading!

Flying bean - Good on you! I guess there's no answer so far?

FMC - how about writing a CHIRP? I've no idea how effective they are, but in the long, cold winters here, they make for almost as good reading as pprune!

I sympathise - its a horrible situation to be in, but the smoking pilots are breaking the rules just as much as the drinking, or late arriving, or non-SOP ones. Tough decision, but if you are going to make a stand sooner is better than later. Are there any other senior captains whose advice you can seek?

fmc_app, you say you'll have to get your own oxy bottle. Why? Use the aircraft (crew) bottle and mask every time the idiot(s) light up and then explain if asked why they the crew oxy has to be replenished as often as it does. I can guarantee the accountants will buy into that argument very quickly when an aircraft is delayed on turnaround for oxy replenishment.

This of course conveniently avoids the rather important safety issue of someone smoking within two feet of an oxy mask in use. (I used to fly with a fellow who had once removed his oxy mask to take a quick drag on a coffin nail. He had a very spectacular burn scar covering half his face and very nearly lost an eye in the explosion that proved oxygen and naked flames don't go well together.)

You seem to feel strongly on this matter. If that's the case, the fact is, it isn't going to go away until you make a very public stand WITHIN your airline on the issue. If you're not willing to make such a stand, stop complaining and suffer on in silence.