Incident at FRA
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 528
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From: London
Will someone please point out to the media that if this chap had carried out his threat, his aircraft would pretty much have bounced off the building?
I've heard over-emotional claptrap on radio about fears of a new 9/11. The more apposite comparison would be the Tampa incident.
I've heard over-emotional claptrap on radio about fears of a new 9/11. The more apposite comparison would be the Tampa incident.
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 684
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From: Hungary
hmm....
But, the building was made of glass so it would not have bounced off.
Alan, risk assesment concludes an assesment of the area, location and usage, and I dont think the people at that GA airfield in Germany were expecting to be an international news report coz some freak of nature guy stole one of their aircraft! It can happen anywhere, so I feel all places should be on their guard to an extent to which is neccersary for that area...as you say....'risk assesment'.
The nonsense I have read (as subject matter, not posters, please not) over airport security makes me sick. Reading about crews who have had to take skirts off, and the entire of the pax walking through when the pilots have an axe quite happily located at the front of the aircraft!! Madness...I think, along with the rest of the SANE world, that it should be the other way round, but crews still get a check, as they can be immitated...fair enough.
Priorities and sensibility are the key to good security and that is what is lacking.
Dan
Alan, risk assesment concludes an assesment of the area, location and usage, and I dont think the people at that GA airfield in Germany were expecting to be an international news report coz some freak of nature guy stole one of their aircraft! It can happen anywhere, so I feel all places should be on their guard to an extent to which is neccersary for that area...as you say....'risk assesment'.
The nonsense I have read (as subject matter, not posters, please not) over airport security makes me sick. Reading about crews who have had to take skirts off, and the entire of the pax walking through when the pilots have an axe quite happily located at the front of the aircraft!! Madness...I think, along with the rest of the SANE world, that it should be the other way round, but crews still get a check, as they can be immitated...fair enough.
Priorities and sensibility are the key to good security and that is what is lacking.
Dan
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
From: Variing
okay tonic;
let´s have fences around the small airfields as well, guards, checks, etc.etc...
Do you really think it would help much ?
If you´re mad enough, you can do nearly anything !
Me thinks as for terrorism, we´ll have to fight the illness, not hte symptom.
let´s have fences around the small airfields as well, guards, checks, etc.etc...
Do you really think it would help much ?
If you´re mad enough, you can do nearly anything !
Me thinks as for terrorism, we´ll have to fight the illness, not hte symptom.
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 684
Likes: 0
From: Hungary
Yes, one could still....But at least try to make an effort in reducing such things?
It is a difficult topic, and a sensitive issue. I feel I am too "amateur" to discuss the topic of airport security with people in the know and with experience. Therefoer, I shall direct comments to other such things
Not in dis-respect to anyone...just a mature decision for the smoother running of the disussion
However, as I have said...if the managers of security dealt with the issues and gave SANE instructions and create SENSIBLE procedures, then I am sure, as many of the airline pilots have said, it will make things so much eaiser and more efficient, and point at the problems more directly...
Smooth skies
Dan
It is a difficult topic, and a sensitive issue. I feel I am too "amateur" to discuss the topic of airport security with people in the know and with experience. Therefoer, I shall direct comments to other such things
Not in dis-respect to anyone...just a mature decision for the smoother running of the disussion
However, as I have said...if the managers of security dealt with the issues and gave SANE instructions and create SENSIBLE procedures, then I am sure, as many of the airline pilots have said, it will make things so much eaiser and more efficient, and point at the problems more directly...
Smooth skies
Dan
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,757
Likes: 0
From: Apa, apo ndi kulikonse!
OK
We put 100ft high fences around small airfields.
We put xray machines at every small airfield.
What's to stop the next Joe Bloggs (or Herman the German!) learning to fly and then, without any tweasers/nail files/gun fly his fully fuelled PA28 into a building?
How are you gonna stop that? Answers on a postcard please...
Anyone remember the guy many years ago who learnt to fly at Bournemouth, and on his 1st solo took it to the coast and dive bombed the pier just missing it? A suicide note was found in his navbag back at the flying school.
My point here is that you can NEVER legislate for every circumstance. The guy here probably had flying experience as he flew a nice smooth approach at FRA I have just seen!
We must al be vigilant and accept extra security, but there comes a time when you musn't give in to the terrorists, by letting them impact on our lives too much - or they will have achieved their goal.
We put 100ft high fences around small airfields.
We put xray machines at every small airfield.
What's to stop the next Joe Bloggs (or Herman the German!) learning to fly and then, without any tweasers/nail files/gun fly his fully fuelled PA28 into a building?
How are you gonna stop that? Answers on a postcard please...
Anyone remember the guy many years ago who learnt to fly at Bournemouth, and on his 1st solo took it to the coast and dive bombed the pier just missing it? A suicide note was found in his navbag back at the flying school.
My point here is that you can NEVER legislate for every circumstance. The guy here probably had flying experience as he flew a nice smooth approach at FRA I have just seen!
We must al be vigilant and accept extra security, but there comes a time when you musn't give in to the terrorists, by letting them impact on our lives too much - or they will have achieved their goal.
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 241
Likes: 0
From: planet earth
I say they should of shot the b#s$^&d down,this would hopefully have people thinking twice about a repeat attempt.
Guiding him to FRA was a bad idea finish the job off there and then would have been more suitable.
Guiding him to FRA was a bad idea finish the job off there and then would have been more suitable.
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 680
Likes: 3
From: Who cares? ;-)
very poor statement sevenfourseven....
the 31 yr. old guy appeared at the GA field for a simple sightseeing flight... with his mother in tow! He gets into a powered glider, the pilot starts the motor, the guy pulls out a gun and tells the pilot to get out! The guy then recloses the hood and takes off, aiming directly for Frankfurt....
Do you seriously expect any GA pilot to start having to check every sight seeing guest for weapons?? And, how should he react if he finds one?? arrest him? Or do you expect every field to have security personel... and who will pay for it? This incident is going to add another stone to GA's grave.... the politians in Germany are already discussing great plans, making private flying even more difficult and restricted then it already is.....
the 31 yr. old guy appeared at the GA field for a simple sightseeing flight... with his mother in tow! He gets into a powered glider, the pilot starts the motor, the guy pulls out a gun and tells the pilot to get out! The guy then recloses the hood and takes off, aiming directly for Frankfurt....
Do you seriously expect any GA pilot to start having to check every sight seeing guest for weapons?? And, how should he react if he finds one?? arrest him? Or do you expect every field to have security personel... and who will pay for it? This incident is going to add another stone to GA's grave.... the politians in Germany are already discussing great plans, making private flying even more difficult and restricted then it already is.....
Carbonfibre-based lifeform
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 747
Likes: 0
From: London
This incident is going to add another stone to GA's grave....
I hope that GA flying is still possible in 10 or 20 years time in Europe, but the signs aren't altogether good at the moment.
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 958
Likes: 55
From: Surrey, UK
Just another nutter....
Agreed, certainly a lot of hysteria attached to this incident. But it can hardly have been funny at the time! Reporting has been especially bad on this, I notice that the BBC seems to think those fighters are Tornados (!). Some German boards are already going ape about this "showing that they have no need for an air force" - it's apparently useless - and that the whole thing is a publicity stunt for the government. Bloody silly.
Joined: Sep 2001
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 2,787
Likes: 208
From: Toronto
If you want to go out with a bang, use a truck!
Somehow Homeland Defense has still managed to turn a blind eye to closing off the means of the first WTC bombing and McVeigh's outrage in Oklahoma.
You can still rent a truck or van, load it up with a bomb and detonate at the location of your choice.
Just show a drivers license and credit card -- no passport or background check or special visa required.
Interesting that the authorities can impose all sorts of hoops and security checks on aviation while drivers get a free pass.
A GA a/c flown into the side of a building can't do much more than rearrange some furniture, as we saw in Tampa.
Many years back an MU-2 trying to land at Edmonton Municipal flew into the side of the local hospital. Amazingly the crew survived and were treated on site.
You can still rent a truck or van, load it up with a bomb and detonate at the location of your choice.
Just show a drivers license and credit card -- no passport or background check or special visa required.
Interesting that the authorities can impose all sorts of hoops and security checks on aviation while drivers get a free pass.
A GA a/c flown into the side of a building can't do much more than rearrange some furniture, as we saw in Tampa.
Many years back an MU-2 trying to land at Edmonton Municipal flew into the side of the local hospital. Amazingly the crew survived and were treated on site.
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 677
Likes: 0
Has anyone got the definitive answer on the aircraft type involved? It looks like a Diamon Xtreme:
http://www.diamondair.com/contentc/xtmain.htm
Why did the media, including BBC news, call it a Cessna? Just because it was a light aircraft. On 911 initially they said it was a small aircraft when the pictures clearly showed a larger aircraft. Perhaps there needs to be one TAP (Total Aviation Person) in each of these news organisations.
The Express newspaper not only called the light aircraft a Cessna, but a Luftwaffe Phantom was called a Tornado.
Bet they'd get p***ed off if I called their Jaguar car a Rover, sorry I thought all cars were the same!
http://www.diamondair.com/contentc/xtmain.htm
Why did the media, including BBC news, call it a Cessna? Just because it was a light aircraft. On 911 initially they said it was a small aircraft when the pictures clearly showed a larger aircraft. Perhaps there needs to be one TAP (Total Aviation Person) in each of these news organisations.
The Express newspaper not only called the light aircraft a Cessna, but a Luftwaffe Phantom was called a Tornado.
Bet they'd get p***ed off if I called their Jaguar car a Rover, sorry I thought all cars were the same!
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 680
Likes: 3
From: Who cares? ;-)
it was a Dimona HK 36 TC powered glider... D-KAZE
http://www.n-tv.de/3091509.html
and what do those press folk know anyway.....
http://www.n-tv.de/3091509.html
and what do those press folk know anyway.....
Last edited by WestWind1950; 6th January 2003 at 16:37.
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 187
Likes: 2
From: Europe
RadarContact, can I have some of your pity...!?
It started out as a beautiful daytrip to Paris yesterday. Coming back to the airport in the afternoon, I realized that there were many flights delayed, some cancelled. The baggage staff on strike - well, can`t be that bad, you will get home on your ID ticket. That`s what I thought then.
After a while: WHAT??? An accident at FRA...? Airport closed...? Sh...!
Roughly five hours later I sat in a F.50 to Stuttgart. Spending the night with some friends there, my "daytrip" took about 29 hours, having finally arrived in FRA today noon... ;-)
Cheers,
J.V.
It started out as a beautiful daytrip to Paris yesterday. Coming back to the airport in the afternoon, I realized that there were many flights delayed, some cancelled. The baggage staff on strike - well, can`t be that bad, you will get home on your ID ticket. That`s what I thought then.
After a while: WHAT??? An accident at FRA...? Airport closed...? Sh...!
Roughly five hours later I sat in a F.50 to Stuttgart. Spending the night with some friends there, my "daytrip" took about 29 hours, having finally arrived in FRA today noon... ;-)
Cheers,
J.V.
Pegase Driver
Joined: May 1997
Aviation Qualifications: ATCO
Posts: 4,456
Likes: 1,168
From: Europe
was in the air as well when this thing happenned. the only nice CAVOK day in the area since 3 weeks.
What happenned in FRA is only going to give more arguments to those who wants to get rid of GA.
Tonight in German TV ZDF the German Minister of Internal affairs said , in response to the 1000 $ question of the journo : " what is the governement going to do to prevent this from happening again ? anwered : " there is no 100% security but we are going to look into the possibility to prevent people carrying guns into small planes, by for instance asking all the small airfields to equip with metal detector doors ! Another well informed minister !
God save us from politicians making fools of themselves on TV.
Yes, if you have a gun, it is easy to steal a GA aircrfat. So it is to steal a fully gazoline ladden truck ( for instance from a motorway rest area )
Gess what kind of dammage that can do ! If that happens will the same Minister ask on TV that all motorway rest areas be equipped with metal detector gates ?
Incidentally I wonder how long the owner of the Dimona will wait now to get his aircraft back.
What happenned in FRA is only going to give more arguments to those who wants to get rid of GA.
Tonight in German TV ZDF the German Minister of Internal affairs said , in response to the 1000 $ question of the journo : " what is the governement going to do to prevent this from happening again ? anwered : " there is no 100% security but we are going to look into the possibility to prevent people carrying guns into small planes, by for instance asking all the small airfields to equip with metal detector doors ! Another well informed minister !
God save us from politicians making fools of themselves on TV.
Yes, if you have a gun, it is easy to steal a GA aircrfat. So it is to steal a fully gazoline ladden truck ( for instance from a motorway rest area )
Gess what kind of dammage that can do ! If that happens will the same Minister ask on TV that all motorway rest areas be equipped with metal detector gates ?
Incidentally I wonder how long the owner of the Dimona will wait now to get his aircraft back.
