2 bmi a321 AOG after separate groundstrikes at BHD
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Wingthingy:
Poor comparisons from someone who is struggling with facts, methinks.
Can't remember the last time I had to divert in my CAT III-equipped jet from the big airport to the wee airport, but I see quite a few coming the other way! Oh, sorry, I can remember ... I've never had to divert there!
Can't remember the last time 25 and 17 were closed at the big airport either! And if they were, there's another airport I can consider in N. Ireland, if I have to; The wee airport isn't the only option.
I can remember a certain Airbus operator using the big airport for a charter programme last summer, day and night. In fact, I hear they were VERY glad of the work.
And anyway, I never forget I have a choice, which is why I prefer NOT to use Heathrow when I travel to/from/through London!
With "facts" like yours, you're wasted in this game......why don't you try for a job as a spin-doctor at 10 Downing Street!
Poor comparisons from someone who is struggling with facts, methinks.
Can't remember the last time I had to divert in my CAT III-equipped jet from the big airport to the wee airport, but I see quite a few coming the other way! Oh, sorry, I can remember ... I've never had to divert there!
Can't remember the last time 25 and 17 were closed at the big airport either! And if they were, there's another airport I can consider in N. Ireland, if I have to; The wee airport isn't the only option.
I can remember a certain Airbus operator using the big airport for a charter programme last summer, day and night. In fact, I hear they were VERY glad of the work.
And anyway, I never forget I have a choice, which is why I prefer NOT to use Heathrow when I travel to/from/through London!
With "facts" like yours, you're wasted in this game......why don't you try for a job as a spin-doctor at 10 Downing Street!
Blimey, I think everyone is getting a bit hot under the collar here. I drive the Airbus to BHD because that's what the company want me to do, if I can't land there I divert, probably to BFS.
Now if I had my, non-commercial, choice I would go to BFS every time, I have always considered it one of the best equipped airports around. I know the 07 VOR/DME stinks but it's OK unless the weather is right down, other than that you have a nice long runway with CAT3B and a x-wind ILS on the other runway which is a very rare item and has saved the day for me on a couple of occasions when the wind was howling.
Now if I had my, non-commercial, choice I would go to BFS every time, I have always considered it one of the best equipped airports around. I know the 07 VOR/DME stinks but it's OK unless the weather is right down, other than that you have a nice long runway with CAT3B and a x-wind ILS on the other runway which is a very rare item and has saved the day for me on a couple of occasions when the wind was howling.
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Everything comes at a price.
A handy airport that gets its trouble from time to time. If thats what we have to put up with every so often and in this case, every winter, so what. The passengers still come back. So quit whining over at BFS, if you think your so good there is no need to get so upperty.
I would imagine most people at BHD believe BFS has much better facilities. But in BHD's favour it has the nice terminal, and its location. You can't have everything. Maybe one day it will, then we can all laugh at BFS but until then we both have our places so lets be mature about it boys/girls.
A handy airport that gets its trouble from time to time. If thats what we have to put up with every so often and in this case, every winter, so what. The passengers still come back. So quit whining over at BFS, if you think your so good there is no need to get so upperty.
I would imagine most people at BHD believe BFS has much better facilities. But in BHD's favour it has the nice terminal, and its location. You can't have everything. Maybe one day it will, then we can all laugh at BFS but until then we both have our places so lets be mature about it boys/girls.
StandupfortheUlstermen
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In a way, I'm glad we're only open 16 hrs a day, I can't imagine having to listen to Belhold et al banging on 24/7. God forbid!
The guys at Muckamore think they are soooo professional and obviously think their sheep paddock is far superior to our own little patch of concrete, but why then, do they insist on spreading lies and slagging off the City. Oh yes, and since when did they know better than the travelling public?
Capt Airprox - thank goodness for the voice of reason, how are you old spud? I agree, the facilities at BFS are better (it's not our fault that our management are tightwads), as are the facilities at Coventry, and for an airport which has made big losses over the last 10-15 years, that's saying something.
But hey, I left the protective (and very bitchy) NATS bubble seven years ago so I have come to accept my lot. And guess what, I'm much happier now that I'm out of that loony bin!
The guys at Muckamore think they are soooo professional and obviously think their sheep paddock is far superior to our own little patch of concrete, but why then, do they insist on spreading lies and slagging off the City. Oh yes, and since when did they know better than the travelling public?
Capt Airprox - thank goodness for the voice of reason, how are you old spud? I agree, the facilities at BFS are better (it's not our fault that our management are tightwads), as are the facilities at Coventry, and for an airport which has made big losses over the last 10-15 years, that's saying something.
But hey, I left the protective (and very bitchy) NATS bubble seven years ago so I have come to accept my lot. And guess what, I'm much happier now that I'm out of that loony bin!
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Why be mature? I have read with fascination over the years at the immaturity that abounds between the two Belfast Airports.
The BHD guys go on and on about how much the business people prefer the little city centre airport (really an oxymoron) etc etc.
Time to get real - size matters.
1. Airfield performance is paramount
2. Passenger catchment is key.
Discuss.
ANSWERS on a postcard but
1. The most important thing is a nice well lit long (smooth) runway with a decent ILS - CAT3B pref.
2. 1.6m people with no large disposal income - is there any industry left in NI?- no wonder lo-cost in all its guises (Go, Ezy, BE, Bmibaby and even BMI in its Heathlow disguise) has done so well.
Yield counts too but there are loads of suits on the lo-cos.
TSH
The BHD guys go on and on about how much the business people prefer the little city centre airport (really an oxymoron) etc etc.
Time to get real - size matters.
1. Airfield performance is paramount
2. Passenger catchment is key.
Discuss.
ANSWERS on a postcard but
1. The most important thing is a nice well lit long (smooth) runway with a decent ILS - CAT3B pref.
2. 1.6m people with no large disposal income - is there any industry left in NI?- no wonder lo-cost in all its guises (Go, Ezy, BE, Bmibaby and even BMI in its Heathlow disguise) has done so well.
Yield counts too but there are loads of suits on the lo-cos.
TSH
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Capt Airprox ,
yeah you got it in one Bfs has all the best toys .
P. O. D
The rwy layout at Bfs covers all the bases , they have loads of tarmac, lots of airspace and lots of top quality kit. At the city you have to make it work with what you got.
Sometimes it aint about having the best toys but how you use them and who comes to play with them.
T S Hauler
There will always be a bit of friendly banter between EGAA and EGAC , over 25% of the active atcos at aldergrove came from the city and 75% of the city staff are ex-Nats so we all know each other pretty well. Our biggest problem on Monday was that for the first two hours we HAD the smoothest rwy anywhere in Britain thanks to some unexpected rain.
Bel, me old china, sorry if two divs put you under pressure , did they make you clean them aswell !!
yeah you got it in one Bfs has all the best toys .
P. O. D
The rwy layout at Bfs covers all the bases , they have loads of tarmac, lots of airspace and lots of top quality kit. At the city you have to make it work with what you got.
Sometimes it aint about having the best toys but how you use them and who comes to play with them.
T S Hauler
There will always be a bit of friendly banter between EGAA and EGAC , over 25% of the active atcos at aldergrove came from the city and 75% of the city staff are ex-Nats so we all know each other pretty well. Our biggest problem on Monday was that for the first two hours we HAD the smoothest rwy anywhere in Britain thanks to some unexpected rain.
Bel, me old china, sorry if two divs put you under pressure , did they make you clean them aswell !!
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Standard, I'm fine thanks.
Whats all this cobblers with still having to fly towards Bangor before being turned downwind right for 04 at BHD. Are BFS trying to flex their very tiresome muscle yet again? What a pain in the a**e they are.
They should all wear government brown overalls and a clip board and then rant on about their jobs worth. Yawn.
Speak to you in a couple of weeks.......................
Whats all this cobblers with still having to fly towards Bangor before being turned downwind right for 04 at BHD. Are BFS trying to flex their very tiresome muscle yet again? What a pain in the a**e they are.
They should all wear government brown overalls and a clip board and then rant on about their jobs worth. Yawn.
Speak to you in a couple of weeks.......................
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Bobmij
.
Yeah, we have a fair few pics in here, and they do not make
for a pretty picture....
Don't know where else you might get hold of any.
Maybe a jaunt to BHD would suffice ?!!
.
Yeah, we have a fair few pics in here, and they do not make
for a pretty picture....
Don't know where else you might get hold of any.
Maybe a jaunt to BHD would suffice ?!!
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airprox wrote
Hi from a BFS controller.Puts down clipboard.... The telephone number you require is the SCOTTISH WATCH MANAGER
01292798000 ask for domestic watch manager.He will tell you all about the need for the reorganisation of airspace all over the IRISH SEA caused by London requirements.Please also read your notams and you will see that you were advised early last year that pilots could expect unusual routings arriving in the Belfast TMA from the south east.What previously happened was you were sent up the north or south side of Bravo 3 depending on the runway in use ...now all arrivals are aimed (by scottish) at two points (known to us and not on an airways chart) in the north eastern portion of the TMA.The BFS controller then has to split the traffic into BFS and BHD inbounds ..descend them ...and seperate them from ,for example,outbound crossing BHD 04 and BFS 07 traffic both of which are climbing and crossing you from right to left...keeping up so far? good..now if the Scots happen to leave you high and transfer you late there is little option except to give a routing such as you describe(hands up if you think ANY of this is fun for us!!) Meanwhile I am giving the noisy one a handover as he has only primary contacts on his screen and things may be busy so ...if you think it is done for fun THINK ON
The bigger picture is often not seen by those closest to it.
Oh and don't be offensive ...it's not big and it's not funny ..........
Are BFS trying to flex their very tiresome muscle yet again? What a pain in the a**e they are.
01292798000 ask for domestic watch manager.He will tell you all about the need for the reorganisation of airspace all over the IRISH SEA caused by London requirements.Please also read your notams and you will see that you were advised early last year that pilots could expect unusual routings arriving in the Belfast TMA from the south east.What previously happened was you were sent up the north or south side of Bravo 3 depending on the runway in use ...now all arrivals are aimed (by scottish) at two points (known to us and not on an airways chart) in the north eastern portion of the TMA.The BFS controller then has to split the traffic into BFS and BHD inbounds ..descend them ...and seperate them from ,for example,outbound crossing BHD 04 and BFS 07 traffic both of which are climbing and crossing you from right to left...keeping up so far? good..now if the Scots happen to leave you high and transfer you late there is little option except to give a routing such as you describe(hands up if you think ANY of this is fun for us!!) Meanwhile I am giving the noisy one a handover as he has only primary contacts on his screen and things may be busy so ...if you think it is done for fun THINK ON
The bigger picture is often not seen by those closest to it.
Oh and don't be offensive ...it's not big and it's not funny ..........
Last edited by eastern wiseguy; 7th Jan 2003 at 22:09.
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CaptAirProx
An Invitation
If you get an opportunity, as well as phoning the Scottish Watch Manager, phone ATC at BFS and arrange a visit.
You will be made most welcome and be able to see for yourself the difficulties that Easterly operations cause.
It can be simulated if other runways are in use when you visit.
The controllers at BFS work very hard when the 04 versus 07 combination is in use and do their very best to try and make it work effectively.
Aircrew are always welcome in ATC units to discuss problems.
An Invitation
If you get an opportunity, as well as phoning the Scottish Watch Manager, phone ATC at BFS and arrange a visit.
You will be made most welcome and be able to see for yourself the difficulties that Easterly operations cause.
It can be simulated if other runways are in use when you visit.
The controllers at BFS work very hard when the 04 versus 07 combination is in use and do their very best to try and make it work effectively.
Aircrew are always welcome in ATC units to discuss problems.
Guest
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Let me second that, you will be made most welcome by the BFS ATCOs. I went up one day durring last summer expecting a quick tower of about 30mins aorund it but oh no, how mistaken I was. I was in there for the best part of 2 hours, and they don't just show you things but explain it to you. I had good thorough tour which was most interesting and the guys showed me everything, Then we went downstairs and Martin made us tea and after that thought it was time to leave but oh no, wrong again. He took us over to the fire station and we were shown around that aswell by a fireman and even took us for a drive in one of the Baracuda fire engines, and let us try dirving all three hundred thousand pounds (no not lbs but its value) around for a while. Very good trip and worth it, if I can get a face change soon I'll be back up there again!
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Eastern, many thanks for your informed reply.
I have read the notams before but find it confusing that on somedays when this scenario is in use (04 & 07) that we get vectored on to right base with too much height to lose and lots of TCAS from BFS, yet other times with this in mind we come down earlier to then find as we did the other night that we had to go around the houses creating noise bellow. I understand your probs having been based at BHD, but last night our TCAS showed no other traffic in the Belfast TMA. We wanted a visual right base but were flatly refused by Scottish, then BFS. I thought ohwell, thats cos theres traffic around, how hum. But not according to our screen at 60 miles range.
I still have to say would we been positioned over Bangor with a departure off 04 as I would have thought a confliction could happen?
If I ever get marooned in BFS which is very rare, in fact only been in there in a Cesspit, I will take up your offer. With thanks.
I have read the notams before but find it confusing that on somedays when this scenario is in use (04 & 07) that we get vectored on to right base with too much height to lose and lots of TCAS from BFS, yet other times with this in mind we come down earlier to then find as we did the other night that we had to go around the houses creating noise bellow. I understand your probs having been based at BHD, but last night our TCAS showed no other traffic in the Belfast TMA. We wanted a visual right base but were flatly refused by Scottish, then BFS. I thought ohwell, thats cos theres traffic around, how hum. But not according to our screen at 60 miles range.
I still have to say would we been positioned over Bangor with a departure off 04 as I would have thought a confliction could happen?
If I ever get marooned in BFS which is very rare, in fact only been in there in a Cesspit, I will take up your offer. With thanks.
StandupfortheUlstermen
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Capt - It appears to have as much to do with traffic levels as to which particular watch is on duty at Muckamore. The majority of those guys are great, but there are a few who, through a slavish following of the book or through lack of interest, just put you over Bangor even when the TMA is devoid of any other flying machines.
As for protecting 04 deps, that's one of the few reasons you will get a "standard noise climbing alt......" type clearance. We don't particularly like it, but hey we're only amateurs, they're the professionals, they know what they're doing!
Eastern - "meanwhile I am giving the noisy one a handover as he has only primary contacts on his screen" - mmm, yeah and that's all I've had at my two units since I left the National Air Traffic Shambles and guess what? It works quite well if you know how to use it. You obviously don't remember - not on watch yesterday then!
bobmij - check your private messages Re pics
As for protecting 04 deps, that's one of the few reasons you will get a "standard noise climbing alt......" type clearance. We don't particularly like it, but hey we're only amateurs, they're the professionals, they know what they're doing!
Eastern - "meanwhile I am giving the noisy one a handover as he has only primary contacts on his screen" - mmm, yeah and that's all I've had at my two units since I left the National Air Traffic Shambles and guess what? It works quite well if you know how to use it. You obviously don't remember - not on watch yesterday then!
bobmij - check your private messages Re pics
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Good Morning children.....
Time to put my tuppence worth in!
Standard,eastern was in work yesterday and is again this morning but was too busy being a social butterfly and showing fellow, obviously down trodden, NATS colleagues from the valleys how to have some fun in Belfast.....
Alot has been said about people wanting to fly to Heathrow from BHD, sure just look at the loads! But I'd like to point out that WE DON'T HAVE A CHOICE! Has anyone seen the times out of BFS, they're next to useless....I know plently who prefer to use Muckamore International, my local MP for one
About Monday morning, I was there providing my best customer service to those who were flying around in circles for over an hour. The Midland skipper just didn't seem to want to know, once he had made his decision to divert, even when there was 1829m of braking action good available for him. I asked him was he sure before he left the hold and we were instructed by midland ops to tell him again when he was downwind......
Having returned from Heathrow myself last night, any truth to the rumour that a fellow passenger was telling anyone who would care to listen that the initial reason that the bd81 did not depart until 1000 yesterday morning was that the runway de-icing equipment broke down? And apparently the skipper of that flight was telling passengers they were waiting for the sun to come up and melt the ice on the runway!?!
Time to go and have some breakfast and obviously feel sorry for myself cause I work for NATS and life isn't worth living...........
Regards cf
Time to put my tuppence worth in!
Standard,eastern was in work yesterday and is again this morning but was too busy being a social butterfly and showing fellow, obviously down trodden, NATS colleagues from the valleys how to have some fun in Belfast.....
Alot has been said about people wanting to fly to Heathrow from BHD, sure just look at the loads! But I'd like to point out that WE DON'T HAVE A CHOICE! Has anyone seen the times out of BFS, they're next to useless....I know plently who prefer to use Muckamore International, my local MP for one
About Monday morning, I was there providing my best customer service to those who were flying around in circles for over an hour. The Midland skipper just didn't seem to want to know, once he had made his decision to divert, even when there was 1829m of braking action good available for him. I asked him was he sure before he left the hold and we were instructed by midland ops to tell him again when he was downwind......
Having returned from Heathrow myself last night, any truth to the rumour that a fellow passenger was telling anyone who would care to listen that the initial reason that the bd81 did not depart until 1000 yesterday morning was that the runway de-icing equipment broke down? And apparently the skipper of that flight was telling passengers they were waiting for the sun to come up and melt the ice on the runway!?!
Time to go and have some breakfast and obviously feel sorry for myself cause I work for NATS and life isn't worth living...........
Regards cf
Last edited by controller friendly; 9th Jan 2003 at 13:16.
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Noisy....my point was simply that the radar handover has to be done and as such contributes to the overall workload ...yes I know how to work without ssr...did it for years ....the whole point is that despite your view on the system it is really the Scots who call the tune and whether I like it or not they will still send traffic to the aiming points high and transfer them late we will then expedite them down as best we can.(cf and I will no doubt discuss this when they come over for a few bee...sorry liaison visit in the next few weeks.Join us!I will even buy you a little Harveys Bristol cream!)
As far as not being given a Visual Approach by Scottish and then Bfs(Capt airprox) I would point out it is not within those units ability to do that ..the only person who can offer a visual approach into BHD is ultimately the CITY controller as he has details on ALL the stuff in the lower levels around his local area. As for would you have been positioned over Bangor and conflictions is also noted ,BUT ,again I have to say that sometimes we are dealt the hand by Scottish with no option other than to play it that way.As an aside I did some checking with higher authorities and it seems that the reorganisation has given the Belfast sector CONSIDERABLY more capacity leading to LESS delays for all users,so something must be working.
Your point about getting height off is noted and perhaps if Fam flights were to be reinstated we could ALL learn about performance and crew/controller needs ...that however is a battle which remains to be fought.
we will then expedite them down as best we can.(cf and I will no doubt discuss this when they come over for a few bee...sorry liaison visit in the next few weeks.Join us!I will even buy you a little Harveys Bristol cream!)As far as not being given a Visual Approach by Scottish and then Bfs(Capt airprox) I would point out it is not within those units ability to do that ..the only person who can offer a visual approach into BHD is ultimately the CITY controller as he has details on ALL the stuff in the lower levels around his local area. As for would you have been positioned over Bangor and conflictions is also noted ,BUT ,again I have to say that sometimes we are dealt the hand by Scottish with no option other than to play it that way.As an aside I did some checking with higher authorities and it seems that the reorganisation has given the Belfast sector CONSIDERABLY more capacity leading to LESS delays for all users,so something must be working.
Your point about getting height off is noted and perhaps if Fam flights were to be reinstated we could ALL learn about performance and crew/controller needs ...that however is a battle which remains to be fought.
StandupfortheUlstermen
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Ah cf, there you are, thought it was a bit quiet.
Believe it or not, my local MP likes to fly from the City, but hey, I suppose we'll just have to call it a draw. Anyway, no one cares what Jeffrey thinks these days.
As for the Middy capt deciding to div into your place, well I've never argued with a pilot cos at the end of the day, as an ATCO, I know that he must do what he feels best. As a passenger, I'm glad that a pilot will sometimes go against company wishes if it keeps me from harm. They are professionals, I respect that.
Now, regarding the de-icing story, for the first time in my little City adventure, it wasn't our equipment which was u/s. It was actually the aircraft de-icing trucks which broke down (no doubt something to do with running one of them into the back of a big shiny airbus!!! - blimey, was I getting back to the original topic there, silly me!), but you know how these rumours start.
Eastern - it must be such a pain having to give us handovers, but you should keep an eye on your colleagues, I've had the odd silent handover now and again. Obviously when they're too busy to call me. Hear, Hear! on the fam flights!!
Name the date and I may buy you a Strawberry Dacquirie in return.
BTW - I've sorted out the admin diffs, see you on the 23rd, and there may even be an interesting feline being released from the holdall! mmm the soup thickens......
Believe it or not, my local MP likes to fly from the City, but hey, I suppose we'll just have to call it a draw. Anyway, no one cares what Jeffrey thinks these days.
As for the Middy capt deciding to div into your place, well I've never argued with a pilot cos at the end of the day, as an ATCO, I know that he must do what he feels best. As a passenger, I'm glad that a pilot will sometimes go against company wishes if it keeps me from harm. They are professionals, I respect that.
Now, regarding the de-icing story, for the first time in my little City adventure, it wasn't our equipment which was u/s. It was actually the aircraft de-icing trucks which broke down (no doubt something to do with running one of them into the back of a big shiny airbus!!! - blimey, was I getting back to the original topic there, silly me!), but you know how these rumours start.
Eastern - it must be such a pain having to give us handovers, but you should keep an eye on your colleagues, I've had the odd silent handover now and again. Obviously when they're too busy to call me.
Hear, Hear! on the fam flights!!Name the date and I may buy you a Strawberry Dacquirie in return.
BTW - I've sorted out the admin diffs, see you on the 23rd, and there may even be an interesting feline being released from the holdall! mmm the soup thickens......
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Noisy ...neither a pain nor a joy giving handovers ...merely a fact of life.As for the injured A321 .....the replacement bits were delivered by an Airbus Industrie Beluga (into BFS ) this very afternoon.Despite rumours to the contrary it was not shipped down on "the Airbus"(every 20 minutes from outside the terminal)
) this very afternoon.Despite rumours to the contrary it was not shipped down on "the Airbus"(every 20 minutes from outside the terminal)
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Sensible Garage:
If "the wee airport ruled OK", then the Beluga would have come direct to there, wouldn't it?
Oh, sorry, I forgot; 60 year old concrete built on top of a rubbish tip wouldn't be able to support an aeroplane with a reasonable PCN, would it?
Just as well the big airport was there to bail-out the wee airport... again!!!
Maybe someday you'll get to fly a real jet!
Toodles!!
If "the wee airport ruled OK", then the Beluga would have come direct to there, wouldn't it?
Oh, sorry, I forgot; 60 year old concrete built on top of a rubbish tip wouldn't be able to support an aeroplane with a reasonable PCN, would it?
Just as well the big airport was there to bail-out the wee airport... again!!!
Maybe someday you'll get to fly a real jet!
Toodles!!