security UK please read!!
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Security
Funny you mention magnums (firearms not ice creams) in the cockpit. A few days ago leaving PHX I was receiving a good going over because my stapler looked like a nail clipper on the scanner. So I'm politely taken aside, the bag is sniffed for PX examined and rescanned. I dare mention that I'm not going to clip the captain nor staple on his wig (can't spell 2pay). It seemed a little out of proportion since I had access on the flight deck to a crow bar, steel pen, glass, china and congress approval for a firearm. The guy had no idea. But then they don't pay these guys to think too much do they, just be a good chap and follow procedure I could have passed on the suspect clippers to another flight under duress but thats about the worst I could come with and the bloke agreed. Hopefully another man on our side now. I've ditched the stapler, let the company pick up the paper work.
Last edited by kowloon; 25th Sep 2002 at 23:31.
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Going Downhill
Flying regulalry, I am getting mighty peed off at the ludicrous delays caused by so called enhanced security.
By way of example:
1) At lhr, small sizzors get by if they are not sharp, needles from sowing kits allowed as is the razor in my wash kit. Also, apparently I am only allowed to take matches on baord if they are in my pocket and not in my brief case ??
2) On board there are glasses, amazingly sharp plastic knifes, bottles, hot water from the galley etc etc
3) Lufthansa have now put back metal knifes and forks. They are much less deadly that the plastic type (except if you throw them I suppose)
4) In Rome, after flight from Cairo, you get your bags X-rayed again coming off the plane ???? Another stupid queue manned by 5 security staff.
The whole thing is a farce and its about time someone did something or people like me will find other ways of doing business.
I want flying to be safe but its no good pretending, either do it properly or not at all
By way of example:
1) At lhr, small sizzors get by if they are not sharp, needles from sowing kits allowed as is the razor in my wash kit. Also, apparently I am only allowed to take matches on baord if they are in my pocket and not in my brief case ??
2) On board there are glasses, amazingly sharp plastic knifes, bottles, hot water from the galley etc etc
3) Lufthansa have now put back metal knifes and forks. They are much less deadly that the plastic type (except if you throw them I suppose)
4) In Rome, after flight from Cairo, you get your bags X-rayed again coming off the plane ???? Another stupid queue manned by 5 security staff.
The whole thing is a farce and its about time someone did something or people like me will find other ways of doing business.
I want flying to be safe but its no good pretending, either do it properly or not at all
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Just to play Devil's advocate.....
1: "Full uniform" is available from most theatrical suppliers or 2nd hand shops or tailors who are paid enough. Airport IDs vary from airport to airport and country to country.
2: If you were a poorly paid, demotivated, untrained security operative, with no discretion about what objects you confiscate, and you were faced with an arrogant "how dare you search me you cretin, don't you know who I am?" individual, What would you do? Personally, I would be donning the latex gloves.
1: "Full uniform" is available from most theatrical suppliers or 2nd hand shops or tailors who are paid enough. Airport IDs vary from airport to airport and country to country.
2: If you were a poorly paid, demotivated, untrained security operative, with no discretion about what objects you confiscate, and you were faced with an arrogant "how dare you search me you cretin, don't you know who I am?" individual, What would you do? Personally, I would be donning the latex gloves.
Norodnik,
Matches & lighters aren't in your pocket instead of your carry on baggage for a security reason. They're there in case one of them ignites.
A flame starting up in your pocket will certainly get noticed - and presumably doused
- before it becomes a severe fire. A fire tucked away in an overhead locker can become established & spread long before it is noticed, let alone found & extinguished.
Matches & lighters aren't in your pocket instead of your carry on baggage for a security reason. They're there in case one of them ignites.
A flame starting up in your pocket will certainly get noticed - and presumably doused
- before it becomes a severe fire. A fire tucked away in an overhead locker can become established & spread long before it is noticed, let alone found & extinguished.
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Its amazing that so many of you get upset about small items delaying your passage through the security checks, when you know perfectly well that if you put them in the hold baggage you wouldn't have a problem. 
After all, your employers make it perfectly clear to YOUR customers what can be taken on as cabin baggage and what cannot, so why don't you comply? or perhaps you think you're above aviation security regulations.
It seems that Canberra is the only one who recognises that you critizing the security screeners is totally pointless, they have a crap job, made even worse by your collective arrogance, and are paid peanuts.
If you have a real gripe, which on the face of your postings you don't, put it through your line management to pass on to the regulatory authorities.
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Ahh Christ!!!
Are you dumb ?!
You really got the point here did you ?!!
It's not about anyone being above the law.
It's not about not complying with security regs.
It's about the argument for anyone involved in security, to logically reason why flight-crew, who is ultimately in charge of pax-security, to remove petty objects and personal property because some low ranked Iq-dweeb deems it necessary to preserve passenger-safety.
We do our job every-day to fly pax safely from A-B. Can you imagine the irritation it creates being bossed around by some guy claiming you are a security risk ??
How can you make an argument to justify such behaviour ?
That the potential threat is a disguised pilot crashing the aircraft somewhere ??!!
That would mean the same thing as if someone impersonated a security-officer and gave a pax free journey to the A/C with 10 Kg of C4.
My point is this: There is no argument what so ever to justify security-check of any air-crew!?
If so, let's hear them, and I'll give you better arguments against it!!
Are you dumb ?!
You really got the point here did you ?!!
It's not about anyone being above the law.
It's not about not complying with security regs.
It's about the argument for anyone involved in security, to logically reason why flight-crew, who is ultimately in charge of pax-security, to remove petty objects and personal property because some low ranked Iq-dweeb deems it necessary to preserve passenger-safety.
We do our job every-day to fly pax safely from A-B. Can you imagine the irritation it creates being bossed around by some guy claiming you are a security risk ??
How can you make an argument to justify such behaviour ?
That the potential threat is a disguised pilot crashing the aircraft somewhere ??!!
That would mean the same thing as if someone impersonated a security-officer and gave a pax free journey to the A/C with 10 Kg of C4.
My point is this: There is no argument what so ever to justify security-check of any air-crew!?
If so, let's hear them, and I'll give you better arguments against it!!
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There IS an argument for searching flight crews- namely, that they could carry stuff airside and pass it to an accomplice for use on another flight.
Of course, this pales into insignificance next to the monumental folly (in the UK) of allowing Sikhs to carry Holy Kirpans airside(that's a dagger to you and me). The justification for this piece of nonsense is that Sikhs are harmless (apart from the well-known and vicious Sikh extremists, of course).
So now, due to this PC idiocy, Sikhs (and only Sikhs) can carry a deadly weapon about airside. Oh, how safe I feel! Maybe I can get permission to carry an AK47, as my religion demands it...
Getting back to the original point, I can kill everbody on the aircraft (and hundreds on the ground) with one hand. First I use it hit the other guy over the head with, then I push the thrust levers forward, than I push the control column all the way forward. Don't need nail clippers or anything.
The current security measures are nothing more than a joke (a bad joke if you happen to be flight crew).
Of course, this pales into insignificance next to the monumental folly (in the UK) of allowing Sikhs to carry Holy Kirpans airside(that's a dagger to you and me). The justification for this piece of nonsense is that Sikhs are harmless (apart from the well-known and vicious Sikh extremists, of course).
So now, due to this PC idiocy, Sikhs (and only Sikhs) can carry a deadly weapon about airside. Oh, how safe I feel! Maybe I can get permission to carry an AK47, as my religion demands it...
Getting back to the original point, I can kill everbody on the aircraft (and hundreds on the ground) with one hand. First I use it hit the other guy over the head with, then I push the thrust levers forward, than I push the control column all the way forward. Don't need nail clippers or anything.
The current security measures are nothing more than a joke (a bad joke if you happen to be flight crew).
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The whole 'system' is barking.
Not long ago I needed to do a daily on my flying device. Not possible without a screwdriver. (No I haven't mastered the art of undoing screws with the fire axe.) Luckily I managed to borow one via Servisair but that only half helped because some bright spark had replaced the screws around one panel with Phillips and the borrowed screwdriver was the flat variety.
Another day down route the handling agent gave me a plastic bag chockful of Swiss army knives/Leathermans/kitchen knives for safekeeping, to be returned to pax back home. Just what I desperately needed days before.
Not long ago I needed to do a daily on my flying device. Not possible without a screwdriver. (No I haven't mastered the art of undoing screws with the fire axe.) Luckily I managed to borow one via Servisair but that only half helped because some bright spark had replaced the screws around one panel with Phillips and the borrowed screwdriver was the flat variety.
Another day down route the handling agent gave me a plastic bag chockful of Swiss army knives/Leathermans/kitchen knives for safekeeping, to be returned to pax back home. Just what I desperately needed days before.
Humus Motor
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't an L-1011 blown in half at (I think) Colombo by a guy dressed in the uniform of a Captain? (Admittedly some years ago, at a time when a pilot, to prove a point, got away for over a year with a picture of a lowland gorilla on his ID)
After the events of last year it is inevitable that Western Democracies will react with what they're best at - nitpicking bureaucracy. But as for the Security person, well there ain't no point in shooting the messenger - he/she can do no more to change things than we can. And I can't quite remember the last time I had time for a manicure on a short haul European sector, so my nail clippers get used at home.
After the events of last year it is inevitable that Western Democracies will react with what they're best at - nitpicking bureaucracy. But as for the Security person, well there ain't no point in shooting the messenger - he/she can do no more to change things than we can. And I can't quite remember the last time I had time for a manicure on a short haul European sector, so my nail clippers get used at home.
Last edited by Earthmover; 30th Sep 2002 at 01:22.
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goatgruff....
As an ATCO, you can be forgiven for not realizing that the majority of us are not able to check in our bags. We are normally required to carry all of our kit through the security process, as (certainly in the case of short-haul pilots) our companies do not make provision for us to check luggage in. With the nature of multi-sector days and aircraft swaps, it would be impractical to do so.
This result is that we will often find ourselves away from home, for perhaps up to five nights, without certain items related to basic personal hygiene.
We are also no longer able to carry the multitools / swiss army knives that we previously used to perform minor repairs. You might consider this to be irrelevant, but I suspect that I’m not the only one who has had to delay the dispatch of my aircraft, while attempting to find an engineer to fix a minor problem down route (which I would previously have dealt with myself), because I have not had the most basic of tools available.
My guess is that most of us would readily accept this state of affairs, if it had any positive impact on security. However, the reality is that it does not. Since any pilot has the ability to do much more harm to/with their aircraft by using their bare hands, rather than a weapon, the only justification for restrictions is the slim possibility that they might pass something on. Any group who is intent on smuggling weapons on to an aircraft, will exploit one of the many ‘holes’ in the cosmetic security net. This would allow them to smuggle significant weapons with a much smaller risk of detection. I consider it unlikely that a terrorist group would attempt to seize an aircraft using pocketknives when the public is now fully aware of the September 11th scenarios. We should all remember that the really dangerous people have no need to carry weapons on to an aircraft.
Also, remember that customs and police officers are allowed to pass through security points completely unchecked. There is no reason to believe that they present any less risk to security than pilots and yet they are able to carry just about anything airside without challenge.
Dyna
As an ATCO, you can be forgiven for not realizing that the majority of us are not able to check in our bags. We are normally required to carry all of our kit through the security process, as (certainly in the case of short-haul pilots) our companies do not make provision for us to check luggage in. With the nature of multi-sector days and aircraft swaps, it would be impractical to do so.
This result is that we will often find ourselves away from home, for perhaps up to five nights, without certain items related to basic personal hygiene.
We are also no longer able to carry the multitools / swiss army knives that we previously used to perform minor repairs. You might consider this to be irrelevant, but I suspect that I’m not the only one who has had to delay the dispatch of my aircraft, while attempting to find an engineer to fix a minor problem down route (which I would previously have dealt with myself), because I have not had the most basic of tools available.
My guess is that most of us would readily accept this state of affairs, if it had any positive impact on security. However, the reality is that it does not. Since any pilot has the ability to do much more harm to/with their aircraft by using their bare hands, rather than a weapon, the only justification for restrictions is the slim possibility that they might pass something on. Any group who is intent on smuggling weapons on to an aircraft, will exploit one of the many ‘holes’ in the cosmetic security net. This would allow them to smuggle significant weapons with a much smaller risk of detection. I consider it unlikely that a terrorist group would attempt to seize an aircraft using pocketknives when the public is now fully aware of the September 11th scenarios. We should all remember that the really dangerous people have no need to carry weapons on to an aircraft.
Also, remember that customs and police officers are allowed to pass through security points completely unchecked. There is no reason to believe that they present any less risk to security than pilots and yet they are able to carry just about anything airside without challenge.
Dyna
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Divergent Phugoid!
You silly boy (or girl)
Flight crew often go on extended trips, sometimes for a few days and sometimes for weeks. It is therefore fairly obvious why they would want to carry personal grooming accessories, isn't it...???
More accurately stated as:
One Ppruner called pilots stupid and arrogant, and then proceeded to type complete and utter (stupid and arrogant) rubbish.
Pot calling the kettle black, methinks...
You silly boy (or girl)
Flight crew often go on extended trips, sometimes for a few days and sometimes for weeks. It is therefore fairly obvious why they would want to carry personal grooming accessories, isn't it...???
One Ppruner called some one an IQ dweeb, and then proceeded to type complete and utter rubbish.
One Ppruner called pilots stupid and arrogant, and then proceeded to type complete and utter (stupid and arrogant) rubbish.
Pot calling the kettle black, methinks...
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Own goal? Hardly.
Funny old thing, but on the aircraft I fly, "on board" includes the holds.
Now if you meant "on the flight deck", you should have said so...
More to the point, you completely misunderstand the problem. It isn't about authority, or a response to it, but about the complete futility of the measures being employed. Not to mention the stupidity shown by some security staff, such as the one that confiscated a three inch model rifle from a GI Joe toy on the basis that it was a "replica weapon"...
There was absolutely no chance that security could have detected the Sept 11 hijackers. What possible clue could there have been? Even now, NONE of the security measures now in force could stop a repeat attempt- not until the reinforced doors are mandatory next year- and in any case, with a key available in the cabin, the efficacy of a strengthened door is moot.
In fact the more I read your post, the more convinced I get that you aren't a pilot at all- you clearly have no appreciation of the situation.
I can not beleive that the obvious has been missed here,
DONT BRING CLIPPERS OR TWEEZERS ON BOARD!
DONT BRING CLIPPERS OR TWEEZERS ON BOARD!
Now if you meant "on the flight deck", you should have said so...
More to the point, you completely misunderstand the problem. It isn't about authority, or a response to it, but about the complete futility of the measures being employed. Not to mention the stupidity shown by some security staff, such as the one that confiscated a three inch model rifle from a GI Joe toy on the basis that it was a "replica weapon"...
There was absolutely no chance that security could have detected the Sept 11 hijackers. What possible clue could there have been? Even now, NONE of the security measures now in force could stop a repeat attempt- not until the reinforced doors are mandatory next year- and in any case, with a key available in the cabin, the efficacy of a strengthened door is moot.
In fact the more I read your post, the more convinced I get that you aren't a pilot at all- you clearly have no appreciation of the situation.
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MOR..
You are not even worth spending any more time that it takes to type this....
Stupid Arrogant and I forgot Pedantic too!!
The term used to describe some aircrew..
If the Hat fits....
You are not even worth spending any more time that it takes to type this....
Stupid Arrogant and I forgot Pedantic too!!
The term used to describe some aircrew..
If the Hat fits....
Thread Starter
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MOR is right,
i have to carry my bag with me, and THEN when i get to the aircraft i then put it in the hold myself, so with that case, i cant even get it to put in the hold!! the main point you are also missing is that i am already in the cockpit, so a weapon to gain access is futile, i am already in command! secondly, the 'weapons' i am talking about are not dangerous in any sense of the manor, there are far more dangerous things on the aircraft.
i have to carry my bag with me, and THEN when i get to the aircraft i then put it in the hold myself, so with that case, i cant even get it to put in the hold!! the main point you are also missing is that i am already in the cockpit, so a weapon to gain access is futile, i am already in command! secondly, the 'weapons' i am talking about are not dangerous in any sense of the manor, there are far more dangerous things on the aircraft.
