View Poll Results: Do BACC have the best interests of CitiExpress at heart with their Scope Clause ??
Yes
32
15.92%
No
73
36.32%
Nope, only their own wallets!!!
96
47.76%
Voters: 201. This poll is closed
The BA Scope Clause.
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Girls,
Neither of you have answered my question. Why should the BACC fight your corner? You can boo-hoo all you want, but the BACC represents 3000+ pilots. (With the backing of those 3000+). Why should we defer to the needs of employees of a different company?
Neither of you have answered my question. Why should the BACC fight your corner? You can boo-hoo all you want, but the BACC represents 3000+ pilots. (With the backing of those 3000+). Why should we defer to the needs of employees of a different company?
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I think everyone should be forced to work for BA. I have too. Don't see why the Brymon and Bral guys and gals shouldn't get to suffer too! Don't believe the hype, its pants at BA!
Harry
Harry
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As a displaced BACX pilot due to FSAS, if this RJ100 program falls through, our "managers" don't know what will happen to the 46 of us-reading between the lines that says to me you'll probably be made redundant despite seniority but I'm too scared to tell you at the moment!
What happens to the BA pilots?
What happens to the BA pilots?
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STATUTORY REDUNDANCIES AT MANCHESTER
Excuse my interruption of this topic but having read through the various threads one thing which strikes me is that we are all in the same boat.I am an engineer based up north and following the closure and none sale of our hangar, 72 engineers found themselves at home on 'Gardening' leave i.e. paid to stay at home.We have been divided from our colleagues and treated despicably by the management teams to the point that many have given up trying to be re-instated and have gotten out of the airline buisness altogether or have jumped to other companies if they could.There are very few jobs at present, only contracting it appears.There are now around 30 'gardeners' left.THESE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN GIVEN WRITTEN NOTICE THEY WILL BE MADE REDUNDANT AT THE GOVERNMENT STATUTORY MINIMUM FROM THE 30TH SEPT UNLESS THEY ACCEPT MOVING FAMILY AND HOME TO LHR(UNREASONABLE) OR ACCEPT A VERY LOW VOLUNTARY SEVERANCE SETTLEMENT! I have read that there are around 900 cabin and flight crew on said 'gardening' leave down south.If the airline succeeds up here,YOU ARE NEXT!!!A ballot is currently in process for industrial action against this action.PLEASE SUPPORT US AS IT WILL AFFECT YOU SOON.........Thank you for your time......STATUTORY REDUNDANCIES AT MANCHESTER
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I'd just like to remind some of the mainline pilots of a small fact that has been posted on the GB thread. The routes you claim as yours actually aren't owned by you, BA pilots esq, personally. They belong to the company and its shareholders. It is therefore down to the company and its shareholders to decide.
I agree with you that it is wrong for a BACX pilot to crow about being paid less than you. FACT - we are being paid less because (as has been stated before) most of us are where we want to be, GLA, EDI, IOM, INV, LBA, etc.
You carp on about scope and what's yours is yours, but should scope come down to seats on an aircraft we have 5 146's that we flew before, on BA franchise routes. Do you intend to displace these pilots? You also harp on about avaricious BACX pilots slavering to get on your RJ's, who incidentally were being flown previously by ex CFE pilots, ahem. I personally haven't bid to move to MAN or BHX to fly them, see the paragraph above.
I don't think that you have any intention of trying to raise our terms and conditions by your actions. Your actions prevent the movement of routes to BACX with its reduced costbase. With your job goes the dead-hand of waterside and its financial burden. Most of the BACX routes won't have such an overhead which will be a significant driver in making them profitable, possibly. So by restricting that move you'll be kicking your employer doubly.
Oh well. Nothing seems to change.
I agree with you that it is wrong for a BACX pilot to crow about being paid less than you. FACT - we are being paid less because (as has been stated before) most of us are where we want to be, GLA, EDI, IOM, INV, LBA, etc.
You carp on about scope and what's yours is yours, but should scope come down to seats on an aircraft we have 5 146's that we flew before, on BA franchise routes. Do you intend to displace these pilots? You also harp on about avaricious BACX pilots slavering to get on your RJ's, who incidentally were being flown previously by ex CFE pilots, ahem. I personally haven't bid to move to MAN or BHX to fly them, see the paragraph above.
I don't think that you have any intention of trying to raise our terms and conditions by your actions. Your actions prevent the movement of routes to BACX with its reduced costbase. With your job goes the dead-hand of waterside and its financial burden. Most of the BACX routes won't have such an overhead which will be a significant driver in making them profitable, possibly. So by restricting that move you'll be kicking your employer doubly.
Oh well. Nothing seems to change.
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But theres been no shortage of bidders for BHX/MAN, displacing those pilots who were willing to accept inferior pay and terms in order to continue working where they want to be.
Incidentally, as BACX is so low cost, can you tell me how much it costs to hire a 146 from Titan at short notice, because they seem to be underpinning quite a bit of your operation from BHX/MAN at the moment.
Incidentally, as BACX is so low cost, can you tell me how much it costs to hire a 146 from Titan at short notice, because they seem to be underpinning quite a bit of your operation from BHX/MAN at the moment.
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BA SCOPE CLAUSES
Little Prince you are 100% correct.
BA mainline has for far too long lost money on domestic and regional operations.
Loosing money is not an option in this world anymore, and it is the management of BA in Waterside who have made these moves inorder to try and stop relentless loss making operations.
I don't envy any of you guys flying for mainline, god bless all and I wish you the very best of success, but the fact is there are many routes on which you can not operate profitably, hence the role of BACE to still provide lucrative interline traffic yet take the burden of loss making services from you.
If you continue to lose money hand over fist you will all go out of business, USair has had the highest staff costs of any airline in the US and today has filed chapter 11.
BACE is the future of regional flying in the UK.
BA mainline has for far too long lost money on domestic and regional operations.
Loosing money is not an option in this world anymore, and it is the management of BA in Waterside who have made these moves inorder to try and stop relentless loss making operations.
I don't envy any of you guys flying for mainline, god bless all and I wish you the very best of success, but the fact is there are many routes on which you can not operate profitably, hence the role of BACE to still provide lucrative interline traffic yet take the burden of loss making services from you.
If you continue to lose money hand over fist you will all go out of business, USair has had the highest staff costs of any airline in the US and today has filed chapter 11.
BACE is the future of regional flying in the UK.
snooky, I don't think this is supposed to be a spelling kompetishun.
Pilots aren't actually employed on their ability to spell!
To help the slightly less than perfect spellers..
LOOSE rhymes with MOOSE
LOSE rhymes with BOOZE (Quite apt really?)
Now back to the thread.
Pilots aren't actually employed on their ability to spell!
To help the slightly less than perfect spellers..
LOOSE rhymes with MOOSE
LOSE rhymes with BOOZE (Quite apt really?)
Now back to the thread.
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Here we go again.........
The argument is actually simple, BA as ever are trying to muddy the waters, and convince us they have our best interests at heart too....(pause for hysterical laughter) or, more honestly, asking us why the BACC should do anything at all for us. At least the latter approach is selfishly honest.
We would be expected to believe that the rate for all pilots should ideally be the same. Hmm, some logic, but no realism. Does one expect the Captain of a Fleetwood fishing smack to be paid the same as the man commanding QE2? I don't think I even need to answer that.
Change is inevitable. What s truly saddening is the inability of BA to actually UNDERSTAND why some people really don't want their system. We are not trying to change your own system, but we would quite like to keep our own, thank you. Scope has not benefited a single Regional Pilot in the USA, but it has certainly protected a lot of jobs on larger a/c - well, up to the current Chapter 11 new entrants anyway. But of course, it makes perfect sense in these dark days to insist on 737s and Airbuses flying around with pax numbers which would make a healthy profit on an Emb/146, but which are driving the operators out of business.
Butr anyway - a small wager. One year from now, there WILL be an RJ Fleet staffed by BACX pilots in a ration of around 2 - 1 to ex BA. In three years there WILL be BACX operated 737s and Airbuses in tandem with GB. In four years, all mainline recruitment will first pass through BACX, and in five years, we will all be part of mainline, on mainline Ts and Cs, and the Company will again be haemorraging money. At which point......they will probably buy Highland Airways, Loganair and Eastern, and away we all go again.
Kinda funny really, but I'm not laughing as BA take the first faltering steps to destroying my livelihood.
We would be expected to believe that the rate for all pilots should ideally be the same. Hmm, some logic, but no realism. Does one expect the Captain of a Fleetwood fishing smack to be paid the same as the man commanding QE2? I don't think I even need to answer that.
Change is inevitable. What s truly saddening is the inability of BA to actually UNDERSTAND why some people really don't want their system. We are not trying to change your own system, but we would quite like to keep our own, thank you. Scope has not benefited a single Regional Pilot in the USA, but it has certainly protected a lot of jobs on larger a/c - well, up to the current Chapter 11 new entrants anyway. But of course, it makes perfect sense in these dark days to insist on 737s and Airbuses flying around with pax numbers which would make a healthy profit on an Emb/146, but which are driving the operators out of business.
Butr anyway - a small wager. One year from now, there WILL be an RJ Fleet staffed by BACX pilots in a ration of around 2 - 1 to ex BA. In three years there WILL be BACX operated 737s and Airbuses in tandem with GB. In four years, all mainline recruitment will first pass through BACX, and in five years, we will all be part of mainline, on mainline Ts and Cs, and the Company will again be haemorraging money. At which point......they will probably buy Highland Airways, Loganair and Eastern, and away we all go again.
Kinda funny really, but I'm not laughing as BA take the first faltering steps to destroying my livelihood.
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You guys make me seriously consider looking for a new Profession.
BA have historically had the best working T&C's, Pensions and Pay in the UK for Pilots. Every 3-5years in BA, over the past 20years or so, those T&C's have been eroded step by step.
Also historically, Pilots often worked their way up through the smaller outfits gaining experience until they secured employment with one of the larger outfits(Virgin, BA, BM, etc) thereby enjoying the improved Pay, T&C's and Pensions. Now you are laughing because their T&C's are under threat ? Unless you are content to stay your entire career as a Regional Jet/prop and don't mind them halving your Pay in 5years after they have finished wiping out the top ranks of Pilots Pay then you shouldn't laugh.
BA have 46 unions to negotiate with and having been a Privatised company still bears a lot of the burden of being a Public company. A lot of the other unions apart from BALPA have been very successful in maintaining unbelievable working conditions which harm their profitability. BALPA being a more flexible and Reasonable Lot(in the past somewhat 'Cozy' with management) have compromised most of their inefficient working practices over the years and are now virtually the most efficient LH operators in the world(stats not BS). This has not stopped BA Pissing these saved efficiencies against the wall elsewhere(70 million on tailfins come to mind).
Realise that BA Pilots are no less hard-working than yourselves. Profitability in their company is no less in their control as you have in your outfits, the only difference to the way all Pilots work to the CAA maximums these days, is the colour of our uniforms that we wear to work. Any Pilot has more in common than the pseudo management types who are eager to replace us with technology asap, and listening to the garbage posted here I can understand their point.
Anywhere where Pilots T&C's are under threat is a concern for us ALL !!! If our Profession is allowed to become the equivalent of a bus-driver we will ALL suffer !! There isn't a Pilot anywhere these days that doesn't have a legitimate reason to be dissappointed or annoyed, because we are ALL under attack without exception.
You are all acting like a hungry pack of wolves over the last few crumbs whilst your owners let fresh bread go stale. Wake Up, we are in the same Profession here. Unless you have just a few months to go as a Pilot and are worried about losing your job then realise that if BA/Virgin or any Mainline Career Pilots lose the fight to save the job as a PROFESSION, you might as well go and get a job driving minicabs becasue the pay will come down to about the same.
Everyone is looking so narrow mindily at their own little poxy job that they can't see the forest for the trees. There is a steam Roller headed toward the Pilot Profession People and unless you always wanted to be just like a minicab driver(pay and status) then you better hope that BALPA succeeds in their efforts. It is not just for selfish reasons that they are using the weight of 3500 Pilots & subscriptions (rather than 40-50) to drive home their demands for consistent Pay & Conditions.
No offense intended toward minicab drivers who would understand the situation better than some here.
PS. Amasing how London underground workers are ready to close down ops in support of firefighters strike, yet Pilots can't even support each other.
PSS. Purple un-SAGE-like
You say "We would be expected to believe that the rate for all pilots should ideally be the same. Hmm, some logic, but no realism. Does one expect the Captain of a Fleetwood fishing smack to be paid the same as the man commanding QE2? "
No and BALPA are trying to prevent the Commander of the QE2 being paid the same as a Fleetwood fishing smack. Isn't it nice to think that a Fleetwood fishing smack Capt can aspire to be a QE2 CAPT ? Imagine if they manage to bring the QE2's CAPT's Pay down to that of the Fleetwood fishing smack, what kind of pay would that leave the fishing smack CAPT on(or should I say new minicab driver)
BA have historically had the best working T&C's, Pensions and Pay in the UK for Pilots. Every 3-5years in BA, over the past 20years or so, those T&C's have been eroded step by step.
Also historically, Pilots often worked their way up through the smaller outfits gaining experience until they secured employment with one of the larger outfits(Virgin, BA, BM, etc) thereby enjoying the improved Pay, T&C's and Pensions. Now you are laughing because their T&C's are under threat ? Unless you are content to stay your entire career as a Regional Jet/prop and don't mind them halving your Pay in 5years after they have finished wiping out the top ranks of Pilots Pay then you shouldn't laugh.
BA have 46 unions to negotiate with and having been a Privatised company still bears a lot of the burden of being a Public company. A lot of the other unions apart from BALPA have been very successful in maintaining unbelievable working conditions which harm their profitability. BALPA being a more flexible and Reasonable Lot(in the past somewhat 'Cozy' with management) have compromised most of their inefficient working practices over the years and are now virtually the most efficient LH operators in the world(stats not BS). This has not stopped BA Pissing these saved efficiencies against the wall elsewhere(70 million on tailfins come to mind).
Realise that BA Pilots are no less hard-working than yourselves. Profitability in their company is no less in their control as you have in your outfits, the only difference to the way all Pilots work to the CAA maximums these days, is the colour of our uniforms that we wear to work. Any Pilot has more in common than the pseudo management types who are eager to replace us with technology asap, and listening to the garbage posted here I can understand their point.
Anywhere where Pilots T&C's are under threat is a concern for us ALL !!! If our Profession is allowed to become the equivalent of a bus-driver we will ALL suffer !! There isn't a Pilot anywhere these days that doesn't have a legitimate reason to be dissappointed or annoyed, because we are ALL under attack without exception.
You are all acting like a hungry pack of wolves over the last few crumbs whilst your owners let fresh bread go stale. Wake Up, we are in the same Profession here. Unless you have just a few months to go as a Pilot and are worried about losing your job then realise that if BA/Virgin or any Mainline Career Pilots lose the fight to save the job as a PROFESSION, you might as well go and get a job driving minicabs becasue the pay will come down to about the same.
Everyone is looking so narrow mindily at their own little poxy job that they can't see the forest for the trees. There is a steam Roller headed toward the Pilot Profession People and unless you always wanted to be just like a minicab driver(pay and status) then you better hope that BALPA succeeds in their efforts. It is not just for selfish reasons that they are using the weight of 3500 Pilots & subscriptions (rather than 40-50) to drive home their demands for consistent Pay & Conditions.
No offense intended toward minicab drivers who would understand the situation better than some here.
PS. Amasing how London underground workers are ready to close down ops in support of firefighters strike, yet Pilots can't even support each other.
PSS. Purple un-SAGE-like
You say "We would be expected to believe that the rate for all pilots should ideally be the same. Hmm, some logic, but no realism. Does one expect the Captain of a Fleetwood fishing smack to be paid the same as the man commanding QE2? "
No and BALPA are trying to prevent the Commander of the QE2 being paid the same as a Fleetwood fishing smack. Isn't it nice to think that a Fleetwood fishing smack Capt can aspire to be a QE2 CAPT ? Imagine if they manage to bring the QE2's CAPT's Pay down to that of the Fleetwood fishing smack, what kind of pay would that leave the fishing smack CAPT on(or should I say new minicab driver)
Last edited by airrage; 12th Sep 2002 at 22:56.
To get back to the thread:
Airrage, I was trying to say in one sentence what you have far more eloquently expressed in many.
Don't you guys devalue what should be a respected profession by trying to drag everyone down in pursuit of your own interests.
Airrage, I was trying to say in one sentence what you have far more eloquently expressed in many.
Don't you guys devalue what should be a respected profession by trying to drag everyone down in pursuit of your own interests.
Last edited by snooky; 13th Sep 2002 at 08:23.
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Come on Kevin!!!!!
Come on Kevin!! 
Everything you have written actually makes sense. The problem is that you have not answered the question about Scope, and how it is REALLY going to affect us here in BACX.
Sounds to me as though we at BACX are being sacrificed on the altar of your collective ambition.
I have an idea! Why don't BA end the leases on the RJs, and hand them back to BAe. The current BA pilots can all go and fly whatever and wherever they want - in mainline. Then BACX can lease the RJs at a much more competitive rate, and go where and when we want with them. Hey, I could develop this theme into 73s and all sorts of other aircraft, maybe I should suggest it to David Evans, Tim de la Fosse and Rob Hearn - trouble is, being BA themselves, they wouldn't understand the concept of operating profitable services.
Maybe, just maybe, (obviously following a successful interview and checkride) we'd allow mainline pilots to join our operation!
Everything you have written actually makes sense. The problem is that you have not answered the question about Scope, and how it is REALLY going to affect us here in BACX.
Sounds to me as though we at BACX are being sacrificed on the altar of your collective ambition.
I have an idea! Why don't BA end the leases on the RJs, and hand them back to BAe. The current BA pilots can all go and fly whatever and wherever they want - in mainline. Then BACX can lease the RJs at a much more competitive rate, and go where and when we want with them. Hey, I could develop this theme into 73s and all sorts of other aircraft, maybe I should suggest it to David Evans, Tim de la Fosse and Rob Hearn - trouble is, being BA themselves, they wouldn't understand the concept of operating profitable services.
Maybe, just maybe, (obviously following a successful interview and checkride) we'd allow mainline pilots to join our operation!
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Scope is about security of employment first(and its immediate secondary effect is on securing reasonable Pay) not just outsourcing to the current cheapest option(not to be inferred at the BACX Pilots themselves).
If BA succeed in hiring the lowest cost operators at will for their operations, eventually their choice of operators will spill over to include other country Operators as well. So 10years down the road when Pay Negotiations are due, BA will say;
" sorry mate, we just had an offer from Ukraine-express(then part of EEC) who will do it for half that and put their Pilots up overnight in the UK at the bedsit they own, Yes I know a one-bdrm flat in the UK is 500,000 pounds so what, you should have agreed to SCOPE when you were at BACX !!!'
Without Scope we are wide open and any Pay Negotiations will not be worth the paper written on. Yes you can have a 20% Pay Rise but we will start outsourcing 80% of your jobs and your headcount will continue to fall off a cliff.
I think you get the picture.
Everyone is worried that Scope will cost them their job now, when in reality it will protect their jobs for years to come, despite unpleasantness now.
If BA succeed in hiring the lowest cost operators at will for their operations, eventually their choice of operators will spill over to include other country Operators as well. So 10years down the road when Pay Negotiations are due, BA will say;
" sorry mate, we just had an offer from Ukraine-express(then part of EEC) who will do it for half that and put their Pilots up overnight in the UK at the bedsit they own, Yes I know a one-bdrm flat in the UK is 500,000 pounds so what, you should have agreed to SCOPE when you were at BACX !!!'
Without Scope we are wide open and any Pay Negotiations will not be worth the paper written on. Yes you can have a 20% Pay Rise but we will start outsourcing 80% of your jobs and your headcount will continue to fall off a cliff.
I think you get the picture.
Everyone is worried that Scope will cost them their job now, when in reality it will protect their jobs for years to come, despite unpleasantness now.
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You mean it will protect YOUR jobs, not ours.
I have heard that ex-CFE F.O.s are going to get commands ahead of our Captains, and that so-called BA seniority will be used to make sure that the most junior mainline person gets ahead of our most senior BACEx guy. I have heard that mainline is trying to pull a fast one on getting preferential treatment on roster bidding, on leave, days off - the whole nine yards.
In the meantime, scope as expressed by a BAR guy I met here at Manchester yesterday will mean no progression onto the 146/RJ, (including even our own aircraft!!!!! ) for non type-rated BACX people until all of BA mainline have had a go on their superior Ts and Cs. On top of that, he said that CFE as was is rapidly promoting the Effoh contingent to maximise their chance at a command, because otherwise they too would be subject to the 'normal' BA progression if they left their current type and type freeze.
It is a complete stitchup, and I just hope our CC have seen it coming; heck, I'd even support our clueless management in their search for lower cost operations. Its all very well to talk about safeguarding future jobs, but call me shortsighted, the job, career and opportunity I'm most interested in protecting is the one which pays my mortgage!!!
As Einstein said, "The only things which are really infinite are the universe and human stupidity - and I'm not sure about the universe!"
By the way, who is "Kevin"?
I have heard that ex-CFE F.O.s are going to get commands ahead of our Captains, and that so-called BA seniority will be used to make sure that the most junior mainline person gets ahead of our most senior BACEx guy. I have heard that mainline is trying to pull a fast one on getting preferential treatment on roster bidding, on leave, days off - the whole nine yards.
In the meantime, scope as expressed by a BAR guy I met here at Manchester yesterday will mean no progression onto the 146/RJ, (including even our own aircraft!!!!!
) for non type-rated BACX people until all of BA mainline have had a go on their superior Ts and Cs. On top of that, he said that CFE as was is rapidly promoting the Effoh contingent to maximise their chance at a command, because otherwise they too would be subject to the 'normal' BA progression if they left their current type and type freeze. It is a complete stitchup, and I just hope our CC have seen it coming; heck, I'd even support our clueless management in their search for lower cost operations. Its all very well to talk about safeguarding future jobs, but call me shortsighted, the job, career and opportunity I'm most interested in protecting is the one which pays my mortgage!!!
As Einstein said, "The only things which are really infinite are the universe and human stupidity - and I'm not sure about the universe!"
By the way, who is "Kevin"?
Thread Starter
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This thread is progressing quite nicely. It seems clear that the vast majority of readers believe BA pilots are (again) out for no-one but their greedy selves, and devil take the hindmost. They clearly don't care who they tread on in their quest for preserving and enhancing their pay package.
It's bad enough having to put up with management shouting BOHICA, and not even greasing the baseball bat, but when your own colleagues try to shaft you - well, it's just plain tragic! And then they have the gall to pretend to be surprised when we protest.
I do like the Einstein quotation though. Maybe if he had known BACC and their selfish greed, he might have added platinum ringed cupidity to his little list!
It's bad enough having to put up with management shouting BOHICA, and not even greasing the baseball bat, but when your own colleagues try to shaft you - well, it's just plain tragic! And then they have the gall to pretend to be surprised when we protest.
I do like the Einstein quotation though. Maybe if he had known BACC and their selfish greed, he might have added platinum ringed cupidity to his little list!
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Personally, I might be prepared to accept a scope clause if the following conditions were met :-
1. Inclusion on mainline seniority list based on DOJ of original company (Brymon BRAL etc.).
2. Inclusion on mainline list open to all BACX pilots irrespective of aircraft type and rank. (i.e. not just jet/146 captains).
3. No interview or flight test to access suitability. If you're good enough to fly for BACX, you're good enough to fly for mainline.
If on the other hand, mainline CC want to impose a scope clause while at the same time selectively restricting access to their seniority list and ensuring that our most senior captain becomes junior to a direct entry cadet who joined yesterday, then they can stick their scope clause where the sun doesn't shine, which would at least have the beneficial effect of muffling those of our mainline colleagues who use this orifice to speak out of!
We are the BRAL collective ~ Resistance was futile, I have been assimilated!
1. Inclusion on mainline seniority list based on DOJ of original company (Brymon BRAL etc.).
2. Inclusion on mainline list open to all BACX pilots irrespective of aircraft type and rank. (i.e. not just jet/146 captains).
3. No interview or flight test to access suitability. If you're good enough to fly for BACX, you're good enough to fly for mainline.
If on the other hand, mainline CC want to impose a scope clause while at the same time selectively restricting access to their seniority list and ensuring that our most senior captain becomes junior to a direct entry cadet who joined yesterday, then they can stick their scope clause where the sun doesn't shine, which would at least have the beneficial effect of muffling those of our mainline colleagues who use this orifice to speak out of!
We are the BRAL collective ~ Resistance was futile, I have been assimilated!
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You guys are forgetting one thing, YOU WERE TAKEN OVER. BA paid good money to your employers(£78m in fact, more than an 80% Premium to your share Price at the time of the announcement) not just for assets but accrued Goodwill - Economic FACT !!!
So Yes Dash Trash your most Senior CAPT now becomes Junior to the most Junior BA Pilot, just like as if he had joined from the RAF or Britannia. If you don't like it, go complain to your former owners who sold out ! Why should 3300 BA Pilots accept previous time in an other company for Seniority in BA - get Real ! If I joined BRAL(when it still existed) as a retired BA Pilot, would you have given me seniority based on 30years in BA......NO and rightly so.
As for your other points raised in order to accept a scope clause:
"1. Inclusion on mainline seniority list based on DOJ of original company (Brymon BRAL etc.). "
Covered Above. BRAL was TAKEN OVER/BOUGHT OUT, not merged as equals(or even David and Goliath style). It could be argued that BA Pilots wouldn't have even had to allowed you to maintain your Commands if we had wanted to be bullies, as everyone here seems to suggest we are. Imagine if we were as bad as suggested where you might be......unemployed with FSS ??? Have you ever considered that ?
"2. Inclusion on mainline list open to all BACX pilots irrespective of aircraft type and rank. (i.e. not just jet/146 captains). "
Then give up your retirement of 60/65 and sign a BA contract ? Why should other BA Pilots accept Pilots with different contracts/retirement ages on any BA aircraft when a lot of guys there presently are forced out against their will at 55, but BRAL guys can stay on ? Again if BA had been a bully they would have forced BRAL guys to sign new contracts and everyone over 55 dismissed. But BA Pilots are the bad guys here.
"3. No interview or flight test to access suitability. If you're good enough to fly for BACX, you're good enough to fly for mainline. "
Agreed, but I don't run the BA insurance dept where legalities may require it. BA Pilots aren't demanding this requirement.
There are two sides to ever coin guys, just ask the Senior BA CAPT's now being pushed out of the Regions to be replaced by your Junior CAPT's(junior in BA cause of takeover) how happy they are to have BRAL in BA. Then ask the 50-100 guys not getting their 757 Commands at LHR this year because of regional Capts junior to them are being directed onto the fleet how they feel about it. All this talk of BA Pilots looking after their jobs is far from reality, in fact the opposite is happening. You guys became part of BA(like it or not)when your owners sold BRAL to BA. No one can deny that there are probably more advantages to most ex-BRAL guys being in BA than being out, unless you thought maybe BRAL was going to buy over 250jets some of which are 747's and 777's and fly to most places in the world.
If we had been the spoilt Neadrathals in BA as intimated in some of your posts, we would have demanded;
- All BRAL Pilots sign BA Pilot contracts(mandatory age 55 retirement). Those over 55 become redundant immediately.
- that all FS&S job losses be from the bottom of the BA Seniority list(not having Senior 747 Classic Pilots without work for 1-2years on half pay, etc)
- all Regional jobs were filled in order of Seniority and bidding, instead of the present situation of BA Pilots losing their jobs to BRAL Pilots after haven taken reduced Pay for years to fund a New Aircraft that never came. Surplus BRAL Pilots(including CAPTs) are fed into the regular bidding Pool.(junior co-pilots)
So quite bleating about how unfair you are being treated, there are now 3500 people's opinions to consider and you guys are starting to make a lot of people feel sick with your unrealistic moaning. And before you start posting about how unreasonable I am being, remember the above is not what I said should have happened, but what might have happened "If we had been the spoilt Neadrathals in BA as intimated in some of your posts." Instead BRAL and ex-CFE Pilots concerns have often taken the forefront before "our Own existing Pilots" and I think have been dealt with a lot of consideration without a legal obligation to have done so.
So welcome to Big Airways !
PS. Any reason why you guys aren't posting these matters on the more Private Official BA-BALPA Forum, or perhaps after all this bleating about BALPA mistreating you guys, you aren't even members.
So Yes Dash Trash your most Senior CAPT now becomes Junior to the most Junior BA Pilot, just like as if he had joined from the RAF or Britannia. If you don't like it, go complain to your former owners who sold out ! Why should 3300 BA Pilots accept previous time in an other company for Seniority in BA - get Real ! If I joined BRAL(when it still existed) as a retired BA Pilot, would you have given me seniority based on 30years in BA......NO and rightly so.
As for your other points raised in order to accept a scope clause:
"1. Inclusion on mainline seniority list based on DOJ of original company (Brymon BRAL etc.). "
Covered Above. BRAL was TAKEN OVER/BOUGHT OUT, not merged as equals(or even David and Goliath style). It could be argued that BA Pilots wouldn't have even had to allowed you to maintain your Commands if we had wanted to be bullies, as everyone here seems to suggest we are. Imagine if we were as bad as suggested where you might be......unemployed with FSS ??? Have you ever considered that ?
"2. Inclusion on mainline list open to all BACX pilots irrespective of aircraft type and rank. (i.e. not just jet/146 captains). "
Then give up your retirement of 60/65 and sign a BA contract ? Why should other BA Pilots accept Pilots with different contracts/retirement ages on any BA aircraft when a lot of guys there presently are forced out against their will at 55, but BRAL guys can stay on ? Again if BA had been a bully they would have forced BRAL guys to sign new contracts and everyone over 55 dismissed. But BA Pilots are the bad guys here.
"3. No interview or flight test to access suitability. If you're good enough to fly for BACX, you're good enough to fly for mainline. "
Agreed, but I don't run the BA insurance dept where legalities may require it. BA Pilots aren't demanding this requirement.
There are two sides to ever coin guys, just ask the Senior BA CAPT's now being pushed out of the Regions to be replaced by your Junior CAPT's(junior in BA cause of takeover) how happy they are to have BRAL in BA. Then ask the 50-100 guys not getting their 757 Commands at LHR this year because of regional Capts junior to them are being directed onto the fleet how they feel about it. All this talk of BA Pilots looking after their jobs is far from reality, in fact the opposite is happening. You guys became part of BA(like it or not)when your owners sold BRAL to BA. No one can deny that there are probably more advantages to most ex-BRAL guys being in BA than being out, unless you thought maybe BRAL was going to buy over 250jets some of which are 747's and 777's and fly to most places in the world.
If we had been the spoilt Neadrathals in BA as intimated in some of your posts, we would have demanded;
- All BRAL Pilots sign BA Pilot contracts(mandatory age 55 retirement). Those over 55 become redundant immediately.
- that all FS&S job losses be from the bottom of the BA Seniority list(not having Senior 747 Classic Pilots without work for 1-2years on half pay, etc)
- all Regional jobs were filled in order of Seniority and bidding, instead of the present situation of BA Pilots losing their jobs to BRAL Pilots after haven taken reduced Pay for years to fund a New Aircraft that never came. Surplus BRAL Pilots(including CAPTs) are fed into the regular bidding Pool.(junior co-pilots)
So quite bleating about how unfair you are being treated, there are now 3500 people's opinions to consider and you guys are starting to make a lot of people feel sick with your unrealistic moaning. And before you start posting about how unreasonable I am being, remember the above is not what I said should have happened, but what might have happened "If we had been the spoilt Neadrathals in BA as intimated in some of your posts." Instead BRAL and ex-CFE Pilots concerns have often taken the forefront before "our Own existing Pilots" and I think have been dealt with a lot of consideration without a legal obligation to have done so.
So welcome to Big Airways !
PS. Any reason why you guys aren't posting these matters on the more Private Official BA-BALPA Forum, or perhaps after all this bleating about BALPA mistreating you guys, you aren't even members.
Last edited by airrage; 14th Sep 2002 at 14:42.