Why so few girls ?
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From: Home cold home
Why so few girls ?
Hi everybody!
I was just wondering why so few girls wannabee pilots, but a lot of them wannabee stewardesses.
Is it because we still have in mind this old stuff: the man pilot with the good looking female flight attendants?
I was just wondering why so few girls wannabee pilots, but a lot of them wannabee stewardesses.
Is it because we still have in mind this old stuff: the man pilot with the good looking female flight attendants?
Paid up
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From: UK
Females tend to aim where they feel their strengths lie, as do males - this is truly in line with equality of opportunity, rather than female bouncers or men who choose to be midwives.
Last edited by Gin Slinger; 18th August 2002 at 00:00.
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From: Mid Ulster
Having worked down 'the back', I have asked this question myself to so many cabin crew, those that genuinely love the airline lifestyle see their careers going in the direction of being promoted to a purser/no.1/cabin supervisor, then a training role rather than moving up front, to some it may seem as natural career progression to others it may seem as lack of ambition.
The girls that I met during my CPL/ATPL courses all had previous hostie experience and were very determined students but if something was not working out they did play the simpathy card, and too often many blokes fell for it!!!!haha
Having said that, none of them are unemployed now, and so I say good luck to the lot.
Ability has nothing to do with gender etc. we are all here on or own merits and ambition.
The girls that I met during my CPL/ATPL courses all had previous hostie experience and were very determined students but if something was not working out they did play the simpathy card, and too often many blokes fell for it!!!!haha
Having said that, none of them are unemployed now, and so I say good luck to the lot.
Ability has nothing to do with gender etc. we are all here on or own merits and ambition.
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From: You Kay
I don't think the vast majority of people do still have this mindset of the male pilot and the female "hostie". Most people I speak to outside the industry are well aware that a female could be up front just as much as a male pilot.
Of the eight journeys I've made as a passenger in the past nine months I can tell you that once we had a female Captain and once we had a female F/O.
I think you'll find that many peoples views on this in and outside the wannabe community are changing fast if they haven't already.
The ratio of male to female wannabes is probably around 10:1. But this is ratio will be closing down all the time.
As for whether the guys have more ambition than the girls for getting in the pointy bit - I think it purely comes down to whether they actually want to do the job. In other words - does it interest them? It is most likely a case of the job holding no personal attraction for them.
BM.
Of the eight journeys I've made as a passenger in the past nine months I can tell you that once we had a female Captain and once we had a female F/O.
I think you'll find that many peoples views on this in and outside the wannabe community are changing fast if they haven't already.
The ratio of male to female wannabes is probably around 10:1. But this is ratio will be closing down all the time.
As for whether the guys have more ambition than the girls for getting in the pointy bit - I think it purely comes down to whether they actually want to do the job. In other words - does it interest them? It is most likely a case of the job holding no personal attraction for them.
BM.
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From: Surrey
There were 3 girls on my ATPL course. Myself included. We had all had professional careers and had not worked as cabin crew.
So, Gin Slinger, where exactly do female's strengths lie? Did you know that there are many male nurses now?
So, Gin Slinger, where exactly do female's strengths lie? Did you know that there are many male nurses now?
Paid up
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From: UK
misunderstood
SA - did I say anything about actual strengths of females compared to males? No. I was trying to answer the original question.
What I was talking about was individual's self-perceptions of what they're good at or what they'd enjoy. I wasn't talking mine or anyone else's views on what constitutes fitting work for a lady.
Men on the whole tend to gravitate more to technical occupations, such as lathe operating or piloting, and women towards activities such as being a primary school teacher or nursing. Some women choose to work on building sites, and some men choose to be perm people's hair for a living, but in both cases they'd be in the minority, same with females who are training to be professional pilots.
I don't have any problem with female pilots, in fact, my IMC instructor was a girlie and very happy I was being taught by her too.
What I was talking about was individual's self-perceptions of what they're good at or what they'd enjoy. I wasn't talking mine or anyone else's views on what constitutes fitting work for a lady.
Men on the whole tend to gravitate more to technical occupations, such as lathe operating or piloting, and women towards activities such as being a primary school teacher or nursing. Some women choose to work on building sites, and some men choose to be perm people's hair for a living, but in both cases they'd be in the minority, same with females who are training to be professional pilots.
I don't have any problem with female pilots, in fact, my IMC instructor was a girlie and very happy I was being taught by her too.
Last edited by Gin Slinger; 18th August 2002 at 14:02.
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From: Planet Earth
Move over T-rex, let the lady through
It’s interesting that you rank being a pilot alongside lathe operating GS. It’s also interesting that you regard it as a technical role. One thing I’ve picked up in talking to airline training pilots is that the technical side should be a given. The areas they most frequently come across problems are with interpersonal and team skills, and mental capacity. Funnily enough, those are areas where women tend to perform well; better, on average, than men.
Personally, I’m coming from a technical background (engineering) where interpersonal skills were too often overlooked in recruiting (or personal development).
I’ve got a long way to go and a lot to learn about being a pilot. Perhaps it is too presumptuous of me to suggest that the days of male dominance of the profession may be numbered as ‘soft skills’ become more important.
Personally, I’m coming from a technical background (engineering) where interpersonal skills were too often overlooked in recruiting (or personal development).
I’ve got a long way to go and a lot to learn about being a pilot. Perhaps it is too presumptuous of me to suggest that the days of male dominance of the profession may be numbered as ‘soft skills’ become more important.
Thread Starter
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From: Home cold home
Hi,
I read few years ago an article about the differences between men and women, or actually, it was mors about boys and girls. Definitly, our brains are functionning differently. Most of the time (you always have exceptions), the boy have better space orientation, 3-dimension seeing, and have more "action" skills, and girls have more social and language skills, I even noticed myself girls start to speak earlier and better than boy, when boy are already running and cannot say 3 words correct.
So, finally, there is no one better than the other, just we are different, and in a airplane, I even should say complimentary... So is the ideal team a man and a woman in a cockpit?
I read few years ago an article about the differences between men and women, or actually, it was mors about boys and girls. Definitly, our brains are functionning differently. Most of the time (you always have exceptions), the boy have better space orientation, 3-dimension seeing, and have more "action" skills, and girls have more social and language skills, I even noticed myself girls start to speak earlier and better than boy, when boy are already running and cannot say 3 words correct.
So, finally, there is no one better than the other, just we are different, and in a airplane, I even should say complimentary... So is the ideal team a man and a woman in a cockpit?
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From: UK
Sally:
Operating a lathe can be compared to operating an aircraft, both involve machine monitoring, both involve reading charts and have replaced hand/eye control with button pressing - what else do you want???
Is piloting a technical role? I reckon so, although I take your point about the interpersonal aspects of it. Even if employers take technical knowledge as read, there's still a hell of a lot of detail you need to cram in your head and understand to pass your ATPLs, and I hear type rating courses are more of the same. An engineering background will definately be an advantage here.
Interestingly enough, I was told by a statistician friend of mine - female incidentally - that the National Office of Statistics classifies pilots as Associate Professionals, alongside sales reps and graphic designers. Not an easy fit. Perhaps it defies classification?
Back to the original question, little boys tend to play with model aeroplanes and little girls tend to play with tea sets. When they grow up, it's no surprise as to what sort of careers they end up doing. Whether this is due to nurture rather than nature, I dunno - my GCSE Sociology only goes so far - the only male in the class, btw!
Operating a lathe can be compared to operating an aircraft, both involve machine monitoring, both involve reading charts and have replaced hand/eye control with button pressing - what else do you want???
Is piloting a technical role? I reckon so, although I take your point about the interpersonal aspects of it. Even if employers take technical knowledge as read, there's still a hell of a lot of detail you need to cram in your head and understand to pass your ATPLs, and I hear type rating courses are more of the same. An engineering background will definately be an advantage here.
Interestingly enough, I was told by a statistician friend of mine - female incidentally - that the National Office of Statistics classifies pilots as Associate Professionals, alongside sales reps and graphic designers. Not an easy fit. Perhaps it defies classification?
Back to the original question, little boys tend to play with model aeroplanes and little girls tend to play with tea sets. When they grow up, it's no surprise as to what sort of careers they end up doing. Whether this is due to nurture rather than nature, I dunno - my GCSE Sociology only goes so far - the only male in the class, btw!
Joined: Jan 1997
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From: UK
Absolutely no reason at all why it shouldn't be 50:50
Apart from the polically incorrect - with a twist.
Conditioning and paucity of expectation amongst girls in the UK
Perhaps Sally would care to briefly describe the campaigns by the Engineering Council - they've been run for the last 25 years that I know of just to get a single digit percentage of women in the industry.
The vast majority of girls leaving school in the UK have no expectation of, or family support for a career in one of the more exotic or well paid professions that require tertiary level qualification or beyond.
Now then, you're about to leap down my throat and shower me me all your examples to prove otherwise amongst your family, friends and colleagues at school.
I can do just the same but I write very carefully indeed - I said the majority. A very important majority - the low paid worker bees the economy depends on and which, despite protestations to the contrary, commerce and industry don't want to lose from a 'service' economy.
As quite a few of you know Danny and I had extremely varied careers before becoming professional pilots close to the ages of 40. I spent 13 years in an inner city area getting students prepared for and into work. An impromtu back of the fag packet calculation show just over 7,000 were girls.
Of those less than ten went straight onto something most of would regard as 'interesting.' IT, journalism, photography and so on. Well under a thousand went on to some form of degree level education.
What was utterly frustrating were the incredibly intelligent ones, several hundred of whom were entirely capable of qualifications and careers at the very highest level. Their expections were so low that despite an entire school career of top marks, assessment and praise they uniformly could see no further than a job in a bank or building society. More worryingly they were viewed by the others as the creme de la creme achieving jobs they could never aspire to.
Not one ever in 13 years said they wanted to be a doctor, lawyer, scientist or engineer although one who was expelled became a very good computer networking specialist for a company called Gandalph.
I've no illusions that this post will garner support - it's just not PC to suggest our culture and establishment aren't supportive and the public have swallowed the stories of girls outperforming boys in exams without ever considering what happens to them afterwards. But tell you what. Why not hold off from replying until after you've taken your next walk around a big shopping centre, a couple of supermarkets, burger joints, and, knowing you lot, pubs........... The evidence is looking at you from across every counter you stop at.
Rob
Apart from the polically incorrect - with a twist.
Conditioning and paucity of expectation amongst girls in the UK
Perhaps Sally would care to briefly describe the campaigns by the Engineering Council - they've been run for the last 25 years that I know of just to get a single digit percentage of women in the industry.
The vast majority of girls leaving school in the UK have no expectation of, or family support for a career in one of the more exotic or well paid professions that require tertiary level qualification or beyond.
Now then, you're about to leap down my throat and shower me me all your examples to prove otherwise amongst your family, friends and colleagues at school.
I can do just the same but I write very carefully indeed - I said the majority. A very important majority - the low paid worker bees the economy depends on and which, despite protestations to the contrary, commerce and industry don't want to lose from a 'service' economy.
As quite a few of you know Danny and I had extremely varied careers before becoming professional pilots close to the ages of 40. I spent 13 years in an inner city area getting students prepared for and into work. An impromtu back of the fag packet calculation show just over 7,000 were girls.
Of those less than ten went straight onto something most of would regard as 'interesting.' IT, journalism, photography and so on. Well under a thousand went on to some form of degree level education.
What was utterly frustrating were the incredibly intelligent ones, several hundred of whom were entirely capable of qualifications and careers at the very highest level. Their expections were so low that despite an entire school career of top marks, assessment and praise they uniformly could see no further than a job in a bank or building society. More worryingly they were viewed by the others as the creme de la creme achieving jobs they could never aspire to.
Not one ever in 13 years said they wanted to be a doctor, lawyer, scientist or engineer although one who was expelled became a very good computer networking specialist for a company called Gandalph.
I've no illusions that this post will garner support - it's just not PC to suggest our culture and establishment aren't supportive and the public have swallowed the stories of girls outperforming boys in exams without ever considering what happens to them afterwards. But tell you what. Why not hold off from replying until after you've taken your next walk around a big shopping centre, a couple of supermarkets, burger joints, and, knowing you lot, pubs........... The evidence is looking at you from across every counter you stop at.
Rob
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From: Europe
Well, and sadly, said PT.
My Mum for years pestered me in despair to have a baby - "you only need to have one"!!! and was incredulous that after all those years I should still be throwing money and effort at a career that I couldn't possibly be that interested in.
But last week my Dad pointed out a 737 going over head (they don't often appear in their part of the world) and said "that's what our Oleo flies" and she has a little weep!!
Humph!
They were good parents, but never offered any support and encouraged me to give it up whenever the going got tough. Luckily my other half is the opposite.
The sad truth is that most girls never even think of flying and it is seen as beyond grasp because of the expence if they do.
Most girls just aren't interested, I have even had one off our smarter FAs sympathise saying "It must be so boring reading the same checklist over and over again"!!!!
My Mum for years pestered me in despair to have a baby - "you only need to have one"!!! and was incredulous that after all those years I should still be throwing money and effort at a career that I couldn't possibly be that interested in.
But last week my Dad pointed out a 737 going over head (they don't often appear in their part of the world) and said "that's what our Oleo flies" and she has a little weep!!
Humph!
They were good parents, but never offered any support and encouraged me to give it up whenever the going got tough. Luckily my other half is the opposite.
The sad truth is that most girls never even think of flying and it is seen as beyond grasp because of the expence if they do.
Most girls just aren't interested, I have even had one off our smarter FAs sympathise saying "It must be so boring reading the same checklist over and over again"!!!!
Why do it if it's not fun?
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From: Bournemouth
Excellent thread. I've seen several threads (there's one running in Private Flying now) about how male and female pilots, being the minority, are treated differently, but I can't say I've ever really stopped to think why there are so few female pilots out there in the first place.
It seems that the general opinion on this thread is that there is no difference in the opportunities offered to men and women, the difference is in the desire to become a pilot in the first place, which seems to make sense to me. I can't think of much to add, except in response to Sally's comment that communication and teamwork skills are as important in being a pilot as the technical skills. I'm sure you're right, Sally - you, I, and most people on this forum know that because we're interested in the industry. But the majority of people who have no connection with aviation, including the average school-age girl, probably don't realise this - I expect that many girls (and boys, for that matter) who are not particularly technically-minded would never even consider a career as a pilot because they believe it to be a 100% technical job, even though we know this is not the reality.
Another thought: Sally also said:
Could it be that the reason these are the areas where most problems occur is because most pilots are men? If it were possible seperate out and to look at the statistics just for the women trainee pilots, would we find that women have more problems with the technical aspects, and less problems with interpersonal skills? I have no idea, I'm just curious.
(By the way, I've flown with 3 female pilots - 2 of my instructors, and 1 very good friend who is a low-hour PPL. In my opinion, two of these women are extremely good pilots. One of them - the instructor who taught me for my night qualification - was an average pilot and an average instructor, at best. Although it's only a very small sample, this ratio is pretty much exactly the same as my experiences with male pilots.)
FFF
-----------
It seems that the general opinion on this thread is that there is no difference in the opportunities offered to men and women, the difference is in the desire to become a pilot in the first place, which seems to make sense to me. I can't think of much to add, except in response to Sally's comment that communication and teamwork skills are as important in being a pilot as the technical skills. I'm sure you're right, Sally - you, I, and most people on this forum know that because we're interested in the industry. But the majority of people who have no connection with aviation, including the average school-age girl, probably don't realise this - I expect that many girls (and boys, for that matter) who are not particularly technically-minded would never even consider a career as a pilot because they believe it to be a 100% technical job, even though we know this is not the reality.
Another thought: Sally also said:
The areas they most frequently come across problems are with interpersonal and team skills, and mental capacity. Funnily enough, those are areas where women tend to perform well; better, on average, than men.
(By the way, I've flown with 3 female pilots - 2 of my instructors, and 1 very good friend who is a low-hour PPL. In my opinion, two of these women are extremely good pilots. One of them - the instructor who taught me for my night qualification - was an average pilot and an average instructor, at best. Although it's only a very small sample, this ratio is pretty much exactly the same as my experiences with male pilots.)
FFF
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From: UK
Obsessive male hobby?
Only 2% of ATPL holders ref UK CAA web stats site are Female!
Its an obsessive male hobby is flying!
A psychologist reports thats its got something to do with the shape of the fuselage (ask WWW)
Its an obsessive male hobby is flying!
A psychologist reports thats its got something to do with the shape of the fuselage (ask WWW)
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From: Suffolk UK
I have trained many men and women in the fine art of flying (and the finer arts of air-to-air refuelling and low-level operations) over the last 15 years. I concluded long a go that there is no significant difference in intrinsic ability between the two sexes in this field. There is, as Prune Towers so eloquently said, a vast difference in expectation. I don't have the definitive answer as to why that should be, but I suspect that much of it is down to peer pressure between 13-18 years of age. Perhaps Sally and Oleo would care to comment on how many of their female school acquaintances fully supported them as opposed to the number that said 'you'll never do that'?
Having said that, things do appear to be improving. There is far less real prejudice around than some would have you believe, and gradually the number of women that aspire to traditionally male careers is increasing. I hope that in 5 or 10 years time this subject would never come up!
Having said that, things do appear to be improving. There is far less real prejudice around than some would have you believe, and gradually the number of women that aspire to traditionally male careers is increasing. I hope that in 5 or 10 years time this subject would never come up!
PPRuNe Handmaiden
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From: Duit On Mon Dei
Yep,
Approx 1% of all airline pilots in the world is female.
I have done a few jobs trying to gather the income to fly.
Fortunately I have been a feral animal all my life and my parents were quite used to me wanting to do "non girly" activities. So when I told them that I was going to learn to fly they were very supportive. I have been lucky. My parents have never said to me "No you can't do that".
They even gave up trying to make me sell the Ducati.
My school mates sort of expected me to do something "interesting". I guess that just shows you do need to be able to ignore peer pressure and to be yourself from an early age.
Approx 1% of all airline pilots in the world is female.
I have done a few jobs trying to gather the income to fly.
Fortunately I have been a feral animal all my life and my parents were quite used to me wanting to do "non girly" activities. So when I told them that I was going to learn to fly they were very supportive. I have been lucky. My parents have never said to me "No you can't do that".
They even gave up trying to make me sell the Ducati.
My school mates sort of expected me to do something "interesting". I guess that just shows you do need to be able to ignore peer pressure and to be yourself from an early age.
Joined: Mar 2001
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From: Suffolk, UK
I feel compelled to respond to this thread as a girl and a pilot. I can honestly say that all the way through school and university I was not only the only girl with asperations of being a commercial pilot, but practically the only person!
Whilst I agree that fewer girls are interested in flying, I have to say that one of the great things about aviation is the fact that it attracts such a varied and diverse fan base, this is not just about sex. When I was training in this country I was usually the only girl, but this was never an issue and in general I was treated on a par with all the rest. I was also fortunate in the fact that my parents have always stood by be whatever I chose to do.
I firmly believe that a love of flying is all one needs to get into this industry and that often comes from within. I don't think we should expect the cabin crew to want to be pilots, just like I don't think nurses should aspire to be doctors. Self motivation is very important in the commercial world and why push people into something they don't really want? All farmers sons don't now take over the farm! Change will happen because we want it to, not because we force people into it. Aviation is far too personal to be just about gender.
Whilst I agree that fewer girls are interested in flying, I have to say that one of the great things about aviation is the fact that it attracts such a varied and diverse fan base, this is not just about sex. When I was training in this country I was usually the only girl, but this was never an issue and in general I was treated on a par with all the rest. I was also fortunate in the fact that my parents have always stood by be whatever I chose to do.
I firmly believe that a love of flying is all one needs to get into this industry and that often comes from within. I don't think we should expect the cabin crew to want to be pilots, just like I don't think nurses should aspire to be doctors. Self motivation is very important in the commercial world and why push people into something they don't really want? All farmers sons don't now take over the farm! Change will happen because we want it to, not because we force people into it. Aviation is far too personal to be just about gender.
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From: You Kay
Well said Melissab!
Exactly what I was trying to say in my post but being a bloke didn't feel it was right for me to point out really.
Most girls I know fall asleep if flying gets mentioned and most blokes want to know the in's and out's. That's just the way things are for good or for bad.
Just because something interests you does not mean you should expect it to interest everyone. We all know this but what needs to be in place is some sort of structure within schools and colleges that actively encourages/promotes women to pursue whatever career does interest them whatever it may be. Does this currently exist? Been a while since I was in school.
BM.
Exactly what I was trying to say in my post but being a bloke didn't feel it was right for me to point out really.
Most girls I know fall asleep if flying gets mentioned and most blokes want to know the in's and out's. That's just the way things are for good or for bad.
Just because something interests you does not mean you should expect it to interest everyone. We all know this but what needs to be in place is some sort of structure within schools and colleges that actively encourages/promotes women to pursue whatever career does interest them whatever it may be. Does this currently exist? Been a while since I was in school.
BM.