Why so few girls ?
The Original Whirly
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So few girls - where are you looking?
At the CAA figures, that's where. 2% of commercial pilots are female.
Does so-called positive discrimination happen? I've no idea. But I DO know that passed over males yell it whenever women beat them, as for instance in my Dawn to Dusk win mentioned a few posts back.
Could it, just conceivably, be that the girlies, having got there against all the odds, are actually...better?
At the CAA figures, that's where. 2% of commercial pilots are female.
Does so-called positive discrimination happen? I've no idea. But I DO know that passed over males yell it whenever women beat them, as for instance in my Dawn to Dusk win mentioned a few posts back.
Could it, just conceivably, be that the girlies, having got there against all the odds, are actually...better?
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Sounds about right. We're about 15 girls out of approaching 700 pilots (BACX).
Are we better? Definately! And we probably have more fun too - as 98% of the whining and complaining you read on these forums must come from the men!
Are we better? Definately! And we probably have more fun too - as 98% of the whining and complaining you read on these forums must come from the men!
Red Snake,
I had to smile when I read your post, because like you, I've received the most silly comments from people outside the industry. The comments you mentioned were spot-on!
At an airshow in 1988, I was standing next to the T-38 I'd brought in, answering questions about the aircraft, as one does at airshows. Finally most people had moved on, and there was one remaining man to whom I was speaking. Just then, a sweet little old lady came up and said to me (wearing my USAF flight suit, which had a T-38 patch/badge on it), "Oh honey, you look so cute in your little outfit ... now do you know where I could find the pilot for this aircraft?"
And just a few days ago, in an elevator at a layover hotel, an older man saw me in uniform (w/hat, nav kitbag, etc) and said, "My goodness, with all those stripes, you must be the purser!"
Seriously, though, I think a lot of you have hit the nail on the head when you mention role models and historical school, social, or industry constraints. 30+ years ago (when I was in my formative "what do I want to be when I grow up" years), a woman simply could not become an airline pilot, because the career field wasn't open to them. If you were a girl and wanted to fly on an airline when you grew up, you had one option: stewardess/hostie.
Thankfully for me, the career field opened to women very shortly after that here in the states, not only for airlines, but also for the USAF. Women have been able to pursue a wide range of professional aviation careers for 25-30 years here. Most if not all of my fellow professional aviators view and treat women pilots as nothing more or less than fellow pilots -- completely no big deal at all as long as the work is done properly by whomever (male or female) is doing the work.
However, some people (most of whom are not in this industry) "don't get out much" when it comes to aviation, and are therefore are still stuck in an old mentality. The problem is this: these people are mothers, fathers, grandparents, teachers, and other people who may have significant influence on the current generation. So, it is no wonder that some girls growing up now are told by people who they love and trust that "you could never do that, it's not a career for girls".
When a girl or boy hears that enough times, they may very well believe it after a while. So, the cycle continues, but it will probably diminish as time goes on and people become more educated.
I had to smile when I read your post, because like you, I've received the most silly comments from people outside the industry. The comments you mentioned were spot-on!
At an airshow in 1988, I was standing next to the T-38 I'd brought in, answering questions about the aircraft, as one does at airshows. Finally most people had moved on, and there was one remaining man to whom I was speaking. Just then, a sweet little old lady came up and said to me (wearing my USAF flight suit, which had a T-38 patch/badge on it), "Oh honey, you look so cute in your little outfit ... now do you know where I could find the pilot for this aircraft?"
And just a few days ago, in an elevator at a layover hotel, an older man saw me in uniform (w/hat, nav kitbag, etc) and said, "My goodness, with all those stripes, you must be the purser!"
Seriously, though, I think a lot of you have hit the nail on the head when you mention role models and historical school, social, or industry constraints. 30+ years ago (when I was in my formative "what do I want to be when I grow up" years), a woman simply could not become an airline pilot, because the career field wasn't open to them. If you were a girl and wanted to fly on an airline when you grew up, you had one option: stewardess/hostie.
Thankfully for me, the career field opened to women very shortly after that here in the states, not only for airlines, but also for the USAF. Women have been able to pursue a wide range of professional aviation careers for 25-30 years here. Most if not all of my fellow professional aviators view and treat women pilots as nothing more or less than fellow pilots -- completely no big deal at all as long as the work is done properly by whomever (male or female) is doing the work.
However, some people (most of whom are not in this industry) "don't get out much" when it comes to aviation, and are therefore are still stuck in an old mentality. The problem is this: these people are mothers, fathers, grandparents, teachers, and other people who may have significant influence on the current generation. So, it is no wonder that some girls growing up now are told by people who they love and trust that "you could never do that, it's not a career for girls".
When a girl or boy hears that enough times, they may very well believe it after a while. So, the cycle continues, but it will probably diminish as time goes on and people become more educated.
Last edited by McD; 4th Sep 2002 at 12:36.
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Whirly, the first five years of my flying career were spent in the Channel Islands, and I never had any discrimination or prejudice there. The most annoying thing I have had to listen to, from boys and girls, when I came out here to Aus was "so you're another pom come to steal our jobs" (never mind that I employ several Aussies!) the racial prejudice was incredible, but being very thick skinned, or perhaps just stupid, I just got on with it once again, and it never affected my career significantly.
Those that whinge about girls, or poms or whatever are "rationalising" why they are unable to do as well as we have. It says a lot more about them than it does about us. "She must have bonked the chief pilot" is a classic example of sour grapes, and indicative of the attitude that makes them unemployable.
HA!
Was the avenue of being an airline pilot ever really closed? Or was it becuase the airlines tended to employ former RAF pilots who were of course male? During WW2 women played a very important role as pilots in the ATA, and had already proved themselves time and time again. Surely not all of them slid into oblivion after the war? Anyone know?
Those that whinge about girls, or poms or whatever are "rationalising" why they are unable to do as well as we have. It says a lot more about them than it does about us. "She must have bonked the chief pilot" is a classic example of sour grapes, and indicative of the attitude that makes them unemployable.
HA!
Was the avenue of being an airline pilot ever really closed? Or was it becuase the airlines tended to employ former RAF pilots who were of course male? During WW2 women played a very important role as pilots in the ATA, and had already proved themselves time and time again. Surely not all of them slid into oblivion after the war? Anyone know?
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Spit15,
I am a female BA CEP. So I'll ask myself 'have I noticed a trend over the last few years?' Well Pandora, I have noticed that there has been no drop off in the numbers of wannabe ATPL holders who still don't seem to be able to break into their first flying job bitching about positive discrimination.
I finished my training and joined BA as a line pilot about 2 and a half years ago. I was on what was known at the time as the girly course because there were a few girls in our class of 18. One of the girls on the course ahead of me was the 100th female pilot employed by BA (it was in the papers, it must be true). So that makes me about the 105th. I believe there are about another 10-15 behind me, plus however many came along with the CFE joiners. So my guess is no more than 150 female pilots on a list of 3800 pilots. So that is less than 4%. Now I know that women just aren't as mathematically adept as men but if this is indicative of a trend of positive discrimination I will eat my hat. Granted the proportion of female pilots in BA is double the national average but 4% is still hardly something to get excited about.
So Spit15, whatever did happen to best person for the job? Well I happen to think that the people I trained with ere the best people for the job. And out of the 40000 people who applied for 216 cadet places that year there may well have been some who didn't perform well on the day, or who were good enough but din't shine, and some of them work with me now at BA having taken a longer route. There were plenty of women who weren't up to it. The women who made it through the interview and onto the course are all flying now for BA, which is more than can be said for some of the men. And none of them have had children and stopped working. I know a lot of mothers who fly for BA and a lot of fathers, and due to the flexible nature of the job it is actually easier to come back part time to flying than it is to amny office based jobs.
I am a female BA CEP. So I'll ask myself 'have I noticed a trend over the last few years?' Well Pandora, I have noticed that there has been no drop off in the numbers of wannabe ATPL holders who still don't seem to be able to break into their first flying job bitching about positive discrimination.
I finished my training and joined BA as a line pilot about 2 and a half years ago. I was on what was known at the time as the girly course because there were a few girls in our class of 18. One of the girls on the course ahead of me was the 100th female pilot employed by BA (it was in the papers, it must be true). So that makes me about the 105th. I believe there are about another 10-15 behind me, plus however many came along with the CFE joiners. So my guess is no more than 150 female pilots on a list of 3800 pilots. So that is less than 4%. Now I know that women just aren't as mathematically adept as men but if this is indicative of a trend of positive discrimination I will eat my hat. Granted the proportion of female pilots in BA is double the national average but 4% is still hardly something to get excited about.
So Spit15, whatever did happen to best person for the job? Well I happen to think that the people I trained with ere the best people for the job. And out of the 40000 people who applied for 216 cadet places that year there may well have been some who didn't perform well on the day, or who were good enough but din't shine, and some of them work with me now at BA having taken a longer route. There were plenty of women who weren't up to it. The women who made it through the interview and onto the course are all flying now for BA, which is more than can be said for some of the men. And none of them have had children and stopped working. I know a lot of mothers who fly for BA and a lot of fathers, and due to the flexible nature of the job it is actually easier to come back part time to flying than it is to amny office based jobs.
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Charlie Foxtrot India,
The airlines were indeed closed to women after the war. I have a couple of autobiographies written by former ATA pilots, and I've met some through the BWPA. After the war they were told, it seems, that the public wasn't ready to accept women pilots. I believe at least some of the airlines didn't accept women until after the Sex Discrimination Act was made law, in 1976 (I recall getting a copy of the Act and telling anyone who'd listen that it would change the world - it did, not not enough). At least some of the ATA pilots kept on flying as and when and where they could. Ann Welch is wellknown in the UK, has written numerous aviation books, and always been involved in flying. I'm not sure if she ever flew for the airlines or not. Jackie Moggridge presented awards for the BWPA a couple of years ago; I managed to get hold of her out-of-print autobiography, and she's ferried Spitfires to Burma, among other things. Some of them wangled interviews by just putting their initials on the application - Jackie had a story of being desperately wanted on the strength of her CV, but rejected when they found she was female. It was tough back then, and it has indeed improved of course.
As to your not encountering any prejudice, as others have pointed out, it's mainly from those outside the industry that it happens. I reckon it's also when training, and among flying instructors - but they're often hour builders and in a sense maybe count as outside the industry in the way I mean it at this moment. I do think it's probably rare in professional aviation. But I'm not really in a position to know. If you never encountered it anywhere, you were lucky. As I said, I was basing my first post on a number of women's experiences, not just my own. So, it may not be universal. But it's very common.
The airlines were indeed closed to women after the war. I have a couple of autobiographies written by former ATA pilots, and I've met some through the BWPA. After the war they were told, it seems, that the public wasn't ready to accept women pilots. I believe at least some of the airlines didn't accept women until after the Sex Discrimination Act was made law, in 1976 (I recall getting a copy of the Act and telling anyone who'd listen that it would change the world - it did, not not enough). At least some of the ATA pilots kept on flying as and when and where they could. Ann Welch is wellknown in the UK, has written numerous aviation books, and always been involved in flying. I'm not sure if she ever flew for the airlines or not. Jackie Moggridge presented awards for the BWPA a couple of years ago; I managed to get hold of her out-of-print autobiography, and she's ferried Spitfires to Burma, among other things. Some of them wangled interviews by just putting their initials on the application - Jackie had a story of being desperately wanted on the strength of her CV, but rejected when they found she was female. It was tough back then, and it has indeed improved of course.
As to your not encountering any prejudice, as others have pointed out, it's mainly from those outside the industry that it happens. I reckon it's also when training, and among flying instructors - but they're often hour builders and in a sense maybe count as outside the industry in the way I mean it at this moment. I do think it's probably rare in professional aviation. But I'm not really in a position to know. If you never encountered it anywhere, you were lucky. As I said, I was basing my first post on a number of women's experiences, not just my own. So, it may not be universal. But it's very common.
Charlie Foxtrot India
I can try to answer your question regarding women WWII pilots, at least from the Yank side of the pond.
I teamed up with a WASP (Women Air Service Pilot) in the early 90s for some "then-and-now" type educational presentations, and I learned many things from her. If I remember correctly, after WWII, nearly all the women pilots returned to non-flying places in society because there was extremely little opportunity for them in any sort of flying job. There were exceptions: Jacqueline Cochrane was extremely successful, setting world records in speed and altitude as a test pilot in the 1950s and 1960s. Again, though, cases like hers were extremely rare exceptions. A woman might manage to get a short-term post-war aircraft delivery job, but that was it. Airlines were still not hiring women as pilots.
I've just sent an e-mail to my WASP friend to ask her about the post-war flying opportunities of her colleagues, and I'll let you know what she says, and if she has any additional info regarding her international counterparts.
(Edited because I see that Whirlybird has provided the UK info you were looking for.)
I can try to answer your question regarding women WWII pilots, at least from the Yank side of the pond.
I teamed up with a WASP (Women Air Service Pilot) in the early 90s for some "then-and-now" type educational presentations, and I learned many things from her. If I remember correctly, after WWII, nearly all the women pilots returned to non-flying places in society because there was extremely little opportunity for them in any sort of flying job. There were exceptions: Jacqueline Cochrane was extremely successful, setting world records in speed and altitude as a test pilot in the 1950s and 1960s. Again, though, cases like hers were extremely rare exceptions. A woman might manage to get a short-term post-war aircraft delivery job, but that was it. Airlines were still not hiring women as pilots.
I've just sent an e-mail to my WASP friend to ask her about the post-war flying opportunities of her colleagues, and I'll let you know what she says, and if she has any additional info regarding her international counterparts.
(Edited because I see that Whirlybird has provided the UK info you were looking for.)
Last edited by McD; 4th Sep 2002 at 15:11.
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Looking at recent intakes on some of the cadet schemes, you have to say that there is positive discrimination.
12 places; 2000 + applicants, 20 women and 3 places given to women.
10 places; 1200+, 10 women, 3 places
These numbers do not add up. You then hear management talk of the women quota and you know, it is happening.
Positive discrimination helps no one and only hinders those who would have got there on theri own merits. It is worse than sexism.
12 places; 2000 + applicants, 20 women and 3 places given to women.
10 places; 1200+, 10 women, 3 places
These numbers do not add up. You then hear management talk of the women quota and you know, it is happening.
Positive discrimination helps no one and only hinders those who would have got there on theri own merits. It is worse than sexism.
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I think Whirlybird is right, women walk into most flight schools or FBOs and see a bunch of men standing around.
I personally sought out a flight school that had a female chief pilot. That was not easy to find, but it can be done (and only a little bit of flag waving).
Only 5% of the pilots in the US are women, but that number should rise as time goes by. Don't lose faith, it will get better!
I personally sought out a flight school that had a female chief pilot. That was not easy to find, but it can be done (and only a little bit of flag waving).
Only 5% of the pilots in the US are women, but that number should rise as time goes by. Don't lose faith, it will get better!
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femalesurgeon
Maybe a higher ratio of girls got in because they were 'better' candidates?! I know I always try that much harder, study that much more, practice on FS2002 longer than the guys because I don't want anyone to ever be able to say 'she can't do it cause she's a girl'...
But, I agree - nowadays jobs should be given the the most suitable candidate regardless of x,y,z.
Maybe a higher ratio of girls got in because they were 'better' candidates?! I know I always try that much harder, study that much more, practice on FS2002 longer than the guys because I don't want anyone to ever be able to say 'she can't do it cause she's a girl'...
But, I agree - nowadays jobs should be given the the most suitable candidate regardless of x,y,z.
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The stats from female surgeon say’s it all. When you gals beat the guys in ‘right hemisphere’ pursuits then you won’t need positive discrimination. By the way, go to a go cart track on a Sunday and see how many girls there are then try the pony club and see how many boys and then tell us we are equal.
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Seriph,
I am a bit of a horsey girl myself, and agree that there are always lots more girls than boys at pony shows. So how does that explain that the number of men on most national equestrian teams far outweighs the women, and how many famous women jockeys can you name? There can only be one of 2 explanations for this. 1; there is a lot of positive discrimination towards the boys. 2; although there are fewer boys at the start of their career they are genuinely better thant the girls around them, and so progress farther.
I can't think of any other reason or excuse. To say there is positive.......Actually I need to stop it right there. Otherwise someone might point out that Ronnie Massarella (manager of the British showjumping team) has decreed that there will never be a woman on the team for as long as he is manager.
Whether there is positive discrimination or not towards men in equestrianism there would be an absolute outcry if it was suggested by a woman. I do also think that although fewer boys start out horse riding the ones at the top are there because they are genuinely the best and have had to struggle to prove themselves.
There is plenty of evidence that women who become pilots are very good and that they had to struggle to get where they are. Your choice of analogy is not a good one.
Female surgeon,
where did your stats come from? Mine came from the CAA and BA's employment figures and don't seem to reflect yours at all. Why are you trying to undermine the efforts of other women on this site? Are you hopeful that a bit of positive discrimination will help you? Well it won't. You have to be good enough. And if you aren't interested in becoming a pilot, go and hang around medic websites.
I am a bit of a horsey girl myself, and agree that there are always lots more girls than boys at pony shows. So how does that explain that the number of men on most national equestrian teams far outweighs the women, and how many famous women jockeys can you name? There can only be one of 2 explanations for this. 1; there is a lot of positive discrimination towards the boys. 2; although there are fewer boys at the start of their career they are genuinely better thant the girls around them, and so progress farther.
I can't think of any other reason or excuse. To say there is positive.......Actually I need to stop it right there. Otherwise someone might point out that Ronnie Massarella (manager of the British showjumping team) has decreed that there will never be a woman on the team for as long as he is manager.
Whether there is positive discrimination or not towards men in equestrianism there would be an absolute outcry if it was suggested by a woman. I do also think that although fewer boys start out horse riding the ones at the top are there because they are genuinely the best and have had to struggle to prove themselves.
There is plenty of evidence that women who become pilots are very good and that they had to struggle to get where they are. Your choice of analogy is not a good one.
Female surgeon,
where did your stats come from? Mine came from the CAA and BA's employment figures and don't seem to reflect yours at all. Why are you trying to undermine the efforts of other women on this site? Are you hopeful that a bit of positive discrimination will help you? Well it won't. You have to be good enough. And if you aren't interested in becoming a pilot, go and hang around medic websites.
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Hmmm... perhaps those who are claiming they've never encountered any prejudice would like to read Seriph 's post again - I have no comment to make on it; I can't be bothered.
If less women succeed than is expected, we're told we can't make it; if it's more we're told there's positive discrimination.
Talk about damned if you do and damned if you don't.
If less women succeed than is expected, we're told we can't make it; if it's more we're told there's positive discrimination.
Talk about damned if you do and damned if you don't.
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Pandora, my stats come from the flight school concerned and from the mouths of the instructors teaching.
Also, two of the women present on merit, were more than a little peeved that some of their fellow gender were not keeping up their end and letting the side down. Also seeing some of the self paying people who had not got on the scheme and were in the same classes, beating them hands down, all gives fuel to the arguments of positive discrimination.
As for right to be on this forum, it is a free forum, with no pre requisites to join. I am as entitled as the next person to read, comment and correct the slander that has been posted about my own profession.
I have been a Pprune watcher since 1996 and as you can see from my rego date only bothered to post on this forum topic. I was incensed by the slander that was put my way by a fellow female, I felt the need to comment. If it had come from a bloke I would have ignored it.
As to can I fly, yes, so even by your criteria I am allowed an opinion. As to do I want to be a commercial airline pilot and work for a company, no, but not for reasons that are any of your business
Flying is fun and relaxation to me, allowing me time out.
I will comment on what I like, when I like and how I like!!!
Also, two of the women present on merit, were more than a little peeved that some of their fellow gender were not keeping up their end and letting the side down. Also seeing some of the self paying people who had not got on the scheme and were in the same classes, beating them hands down, all gives fuel to the arguments of positive discrimination.
As for right to be on this forum, it is a free forum, with no pre requisites to join. I am as entitled as the next person to read, comment and correct the slander that has been posted about my own profession.
I have been a Pprune watcher since 1996 and as you can see from my rego date only bothered to post on this forum topic. I was incensed by the slander that was put my way by a fellow female, I felt the need to comment. If it had come from a bloke I would have ignored it.
As to can I fly, yes, so even by your criteria I am allowed an opinion. As to do I want to be a commercial airline pilot and work for a company, no, but not for reasons that are any of your business
Flying is fun and relaxation to me, allowing me time out.
I will comment on what I like, when I like and how I like!!!
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Positive discrimination, if it happens, is of course a form of sexism.
I've just yet to see any proof that it happens. Unequal numbers are not proof. People doing better or worse than expected later on is not proof - happens all the time. People saying it happens is not proof - unless they are the people who instigated it.
So I'm still unconvinced.
I've just yet to see any proof that it happens. Unequal numbers are not proof. People doing better or worse than expected later on is not proof - happens all the time. People saying it happens is not proof - unless they are the people who instigated it.
So I'm still unconvinced.
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Pandora and femalesurgeon,
this is a worthwhile discussion which is getting quite a wide readership, in large part due to your contributions. Please don't trivialise it either by cheap shots or by dragging the topic away from aviation.
The reader should be in no doubts about who the idiots are in this thread; please don't lower yourselves to that level!
this is a worthwhile discussion which is getting quite a wide readership, in large part due to your contributions. Please don't trivialise it either by cheap shots or by dragging the topic away from aviation.
The reader should be in no doubts about who the idiots are in this thread; please don't lower yourselves to that level!
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My apologies Scroggs.
I have been trying, but other people do seem to want to bring other careers into the equation!!
There does appear to be an impression amongst some of the contributors, that unless you are flying fulltime you are not as commited and not allowed a view on the subject, yet it has been shown on this forum, that sexism is experienced from the minute you walk through the aero club door.
If it is as bad as some people intimate in the commercial sector, one questions why people put up with it. I walked away from one aero club, whilst learning for exactly that kind of atmosphere, I took my custom and my hard earned cash somewhere where it was appreciated. I realise this is harder to do when pay and recruitment are involved but from my friends even we could list some compaines that are more enlightened than others.
I respect all fellow pilots regardless of their sex or standard of licence, no one is better than the other.
I have been trying, but other people do seem to want to bring other careers into the equation!!
There does appear to be an impression amongst some of the contributors, that unless you are flying fulltime you are not as commited and not allowed a view on the subject, yet it has been shown on this forum, that sexism is experienced from the minute you walk through the aero club door.
If it is as bad as some people intimate in the commercial sector, one questions why people put up with it. I walked away from one aero club, whilst learning for exactly that kind of atmosphere, I took my custom and my hard earned cash somewhere where it was appreciated. I realise this is harder to do when pay and recruitment are involved but from my friends even we could list some compaines that are more enlightened than others.
I respect all fellow pilots regardless of their sex or standard of licence, no one is better than the other.
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The biggest crime of course is not to be PC. If one shouts 'But the King has no clothes' you are asking for torrents of abuse. I am not suggesting that women are inferior, indeed in most respects I consider them the superior sex. However, they are different, and the problem is that some will not accept this. If males reign supreme as racing drivers, jockeys, riders, pilots, chefs etc, etc, then there is presumably a reason and to seek excuses by accusing males of discrimination is absurd. There have been many examples of positive discrimination to 'right ' this 'wrong'. In our profession for example the attempt by BA to recruit more female pilots through advertising in female and minority magazines etc. I have personal experience of females with no interest or aptitude for aviation being offered training by BA in preference to males. Indeed being female was and possibly still is a huge advantage, the drop out rate though is very high. Stop making excuses Pandora, many females have excelled in riding, you only have to be good enough to beat the men.
Forgot to add, in my company about 3% female pilots, we love them dearly they are SO cute, sorry could'nt resist. There are about 400 plus female cabin crew about 80%. On an empty sector invite them to the flight deck for T/O or Ldg none are ever interested.
Forgot to add, in my company about 3% female pilots, we love them dearly they are SO cute, sorry could'nt resist. There are about 400 plus female cabin crew about 80%. On an empty sector invite them to the flight deck for T/O or Ldg none are ever interested.
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Seriph,
I think everyone here would agree that men and women are different.
OK, I couldn't resist that, but I'll be serious now. I don't know how you can state that women are either superior or inferior. In all tests of any kind of ability, the results show what are known as "overlapping populations". To take a very basic example, height. On the whole men are taller than women, but there is a range over which you will find both men and women, and some women are taller than some men. The same occurs for strength, spatial ability, whatever. So, we need to talk about individuals here. It MAY be that a majority of women would not be interested in aviation. It MAY even be that a lot of them would be no good at it. But no-one will ever know that, while we have the kind of social influences and prejudice that so many of us have experienced. Advertising in female and minority magazines may simply redress the balance, by showing women and other minorities than it is POSSIBLE for them to be pilots. Of course, if they're being accepted over other applicants who are better, then that is wrong, and counter productive in all ways. As I said, I'm still unconvinced that it happens, but I'm not an airline pilot so I don't actually know. Way back when I was a child (yes, I am that old) there were very few women drivers, and similar arguments were trotted out on a regular basis; now women drivers are no big deal (alright guys, we don't want to hear any of the tired jokes about this!)
Seriph, PC has nothing to do with it. But your posts give the impression of you being extremely patronising to women. If I'm wrong about that, well, that's the problem with the written word; it can be imprecise.
I think everyone here would agree that men and women are different.
OK, I couldn't resist that, but I'll be serious now. I don't know how you can state that women are either superior or inferior. In all tests of any kind of ability, the results show what are known as "overlapping populations". To take a very basic example, height. On the whole men are taller than women, but there is a range over which you will find both men and women, and some women are taller than some men. The same occurs for strength, spatial ability, whatever. So, we need to talk about individuals here. It MAY be that a majority of women would not be interested in aviation. It MAY even be that a lot of them would be no good at it. But no-one will ever know that, while we have the kind of social influences and prejudice that so many of us have experienced. Advertising in female and minority magazines may simply redress the balance, by showing women and other minorities than it is POSSIBLE for them to be pilots. Of course, if they're being accepted over other applicants who are better, then that is wrong, and counter productive in all ways. As I said, I'm still unconvinced that it happens, but I'm not an airline pilot so I don't actually know. Way back when I was a child (yes, I am that old) there were very few women drivers, and similar arguments were trotted out on a regular basis; now women drivers are no big deal (alright guys, we don't want to hear any of the tired jokes about this!)
Seriph, PC has nothing to do with it. But your posts give the impression of you being extremely patronising to women. If I'm wrong about that, well, that's the problem with the written word; it can be imprecise.