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AF66 CDG-LAX diverts - uncontained engine failure over Atlantic

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AF66 CDG-LAX diverts - uncontained engine failure over Atlantic

Old 2nd Oct 2017, 19:47
  #161 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by G-CPTN View Post
If the enquiry hasn't officially started, nobody will be searching for the missing pieces.
You don't think EA have a vested interest in finding out what happened to their engine?

I wouldn't be surprised if they are already chucking large sums of money at a search effort while the AIBs argue about whose jurisdiction it is.

Or do you think they will be twiddling their thumbs in East Hartford and Cincinnati while the regulators debate grounding all their customers' aircraft?
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Old 2nd Oct 2017, 20:03
  #162 (permalink)  
 
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Only takes a look at that cutaway against the pictures of the failure to think that bearing failure is highly unlikely. The remains of the fan disc on the engine suggest that to me. Why the rest fell off is more likely to be worked out in the lab and will not take long.
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Old 2nd Oct 2017, 20:35
  #163 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Alber Ratman View Post
Whole disc has sheared off!
Originally Posted by Alber Ratman View Post
The remains of the fan disc on the engine suggest that to me.
I'm confused. What are you seeing in the photos that you believe to be part of the fan disc?

The consensus seems to be that the fan departed in its entirety.
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Old 2nd Oct 2017, 20:40
  #164 (permalink)  
 
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LP Turbine

Comparing the pictures of the damaged engine and the one posted by Turbine D, it appears that the LP compressor hub separated quite nicely.
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Old 2nd Oct 2017, 20:45
  #165 (permalink)  
 
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Just seen this
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Old 2nd Oct 2017, 21:03
  #166 (permalink)  
 
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Failed Fan Disk

A small remnant portion of the fan disk appears to still be attached to the the low turbine shaft hub.
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Old 2nd Oct 2017, 21:10
  #167 (permalink)  
 
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I'm confused. What are you seeing in the photos that you believe to be part of the fan disc?

The consensus seems to be that the fan departed in its entirety.
Possibly the hub portion of the disk that attaches to the stub shaft just ahead of the bearing.

There should be a fracture progression there telling which direction it has progressed. Also there is the booster stage drive flange that also would show which directions the separation was taking vs a clean break away.

Meanwhile I'm sure that the pedigree of the Titanium process is being examined in detail at this time to see if there is anything at all that is of concern that might point at other parts of the fleet..

To me it is amazing that the blades themselves did not add to the collateral damage to the aircraft (like Pensacola MD80) and the best news yet. No doubt the Kevlar ballistic protection might have played a significant part.
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Old 2nd Oct 2017, 21:16
  #168 (permalink)  
 
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Alber Ratman,
Only takes a look at that cutaway against the pictures of the failure to think that bearing failure is highly unlikely. The remains of the fan disc on the engine suggest that to me.
There are no fan disc remains left on the engine or in any photos of the engine. The fan disc departed with the fan blades and outer casing portion that was covered by a Kevlar wrap. If you look at the artist cutaway depiction, everything forward of smaller (blue) LPT shaft is gone except for a fragment of the larger diameter short fan shaft (also blue) that remained. And I think that is what you see in the Aviation Herald photo.
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Old 2nd Oct 2017, 21:22
  #169 (permalink)  
 
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I wouldn't be surprised if they are already chucking large sums of money at a search effort while the AIBs argue about whose jurisdiction it is.
Why would there be arguing? The rules are quite clear:

Denmark has the lead (state of occurrence)
Rights of participation:
USA (design and manufacture engine)
France (design and manufacture airframe, operator and registry.

Everyone else provides assistance as requested. It seems obvious that Canada plays a major part as that's where the aircraft is.

Given the scale of the investigation and that, other than being under the flight path they have nothing to do with it, Denmark may choose to hand it over to one of the others. But that's their choice to make.
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Old 2nd Oct 2017, 21:29
  #170 (permalink)  
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If not Denmark, who takes the lead?
It would seem that the engine manufacturer has the most to learn/lose, therefore the aircraft manufacturer (or would it be the owner?).

Who stands to benefit most?

France would seem to hold two of the claims (manufacturer/operator).

That leaves Canada as the current location of the 'wreck'.
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Old 2nd Oct 2017, 21:31
  #171 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by JanetFlight View Post
Hi Banana

Its not a "Super Mayday",,,its a Super that stands for the 380's Wake Turbulence,
DOH!

Thanks
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Old 2nd Oct 2017, 22:01
  #172 (permalink)  
 
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If not Denmark, who takes the lead?
It would seem that the engine manufacturer has the most to learn/lose, therefore the aircraft manufacturer (or would it be the owner?).

Who stands to benefit most?
The public, who depend on an impartial investigation by expertise appropriate to the challenge.

I'm confused on this thread about what nation administers the the location (Danes or Canada) nut I'm sure that the governments know and have already sorrted out what investigative agency should take the lead, considering available resources and interests. No sense in the rest of us guessing
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Old 2nd Oct 2017, 22:01
  #173 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Daysleeper View Post
Why would there be arguing? The rules are quite clear
They will be arguing (well OK, negotiating) because the Havarikommissionen is unlikely to have the resources (nor probably the desire) to launch and lead what is clearly going to be a complex investigation with far-reaching implications. That means they will have to choose who to delegate the investigation to - almost certainly either the French BEA or the Canadian TSB.
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Old 2nd Oct 2017, 22:06
  #174 (permalink)  
 
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Nice pic of the engine from directly front-on in that twitter link (this page) ;



Unfortunately I had to screenshot it and upload it to an album and it got shrunk
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Old 2nd Oct 2017, 22:19
  #175 (permalink)  
 
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Links to the full size twitter pics (not mine):
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLGV5R-V4AEAH0P.jpg:large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLGV5R5VAAAgsx6.jpg:large

It looks like the whole fan module fell off. How is it attached? What would happen first, failure of the bolts on the outer flange or fracture of the shaft?

Zoomed highlights attached.
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Old 2nd Oct 2017, 22:22
  #176 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Turbine D View Post
Here you go, thanks to pax2908! You can enlarge it, just click on the art work.
http://www.pw.utc.com/Content/GP7200...taway_high.jpg

If you look at the artist cutaway depiction, everything forward of smaller (blue) LPT shaft is gone except for a fragment of the larger diameter short fan shaft (also blue) that remained.
Thank you, it certainly helps to better understand the photos we've seen.

Think you nailed where it broke. Looks like the short fan shaft sheared where it tapers near the front of the LPC.


......
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Old 2nd Oct 2017, 22:41
  #177 (permalink)  
 
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"The flight data recorder and cabin voice recorder will be arriving in Ottawa on Tuesday for analysis, he added."

They also have the aircraft, therefore they will lead the investigation after Denmark demurs.

Also French speakers in Canada.
.

Last edited by jack11111; 3rd Oct 2017 at 05:35.
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Old 3rd Oct 2017, 00:06
  #178 (permalink)  
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I can't believe that fractured part is the only attachment to the shaft. Surely there's a supportive ring/hub that's missing that's normally further forward?

If not, and it certainly looks as though what you see is what you've got, it's perhaps the most bewilderingly optimised critical part I've ever seen.
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Old 3rd Oct 2017, 00:36
  #179 (permalink)  
 
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look at the 11 O'clock left corner in the pic (under increased brightness).

I wonder if they can get that stub shaft attaching piece off while on-wing (saves time on the front end of the investigation)
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Old 3rd Oct 2017, 00:41
  #180 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by jack11111 View Post
"The flight data recorder and cabin voice recorder will be arriving in Ottawa on Tuesday for analysis, he added."

They also have the aircraft, therefore they will lead the investigation after Denmark demurs.
As a Canadian taxpayer, I would hope that we don't get stuck with the bill!

The search and rescue response, crash recovery operation, and investigation by the Government of Canada took over four years and cost CAD 57 million (at that time approximately US$38 million)
I know that the investigation of SR111 contributed to the advancement and knowledge off aircraft design and manufacture, but it was a huge cost to us in Canada who pay the bills. With the world's 2nd largest land mass, but only 10% of the population density per square Km of the US, I believe it behooves the countries that built, sold and certificated the engine and airframe to assume liability for the investigation!
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