BA pilot upsets DUB ATC once again.
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: BRS/GVA
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Clearly theres lots of folk with axes to grind.
If you search out the un-edited audio from LiveATC (19.6 15:00 - 15:30z EIDW) and listen to it you get this:
15:04.23 81D: request push
15:06.31 GND <unintelligible > ...caution BA will be pushing back to charlie
15:06.35 GND: <confused blabber> ... caution ATR pushing behind you (but that seems to be to Ryan 7316 from the following ack)
15:07.53 GND: <unintelligible> ...pushing back behind to you to point bravo
15:08.19 81D: BA makes is call that push has stopped.
There is no proper call from GND warning BA, (at least not one that has an intelligible callsign) Thus it's not surprising that they didnt respond.
And there's only 1 call at 15:07.53 which could have been it. Thats a single call, not 'i have been trying to call you) and only with 15 seconds warning.
IMHO this is a ground control error, and the controller is the one trying to transfer blame. IMHO the 81D pilot is perfectly entitled to be shirty and correct to flag it. The professionalism comes purely from the others on freq.
If you search out the un-edited audio from LiveATC (19.6 15:00 - 15:30z EIDW) and listen to it you get this:
15:04.23 81D: request push
15:06.31 GND <unintelligible > ...caution BA will be pushing back to charlie
15:06.35 GND: <confused blabber> ... caution ATR pushing behind you (but that seems to be to Ryan 7316 from the following ack)
15:07.53 GND: <unintelligible> ...pushing back behind to you to point bravo
15:08.19 81D: BA makes is call that push has stopped.
There is no proper call from GND warning BA, (at least not one that has an intelligible callsign) Thus it's not surprising that they didnt respond.
And there's only 1 call at 15:07.53 which could have been it. Thats a single call, not 'i have been trying to call you) and only with 15 seconds warning.
IMHO this is a ground control error, and the controller is the one trying to transfer blame. IMHO the 81D pilot is perfectly entitled to be shirty and correct to flag it. The professionalism comes purely from the others on freq.
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: world
Posts: 3,424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hoss183, bear in mind that the <unintelligible> parts may well be due to crossed TXs, which are not uncommon on busy ground FRQs (try JFK). The controller may not be aware that part of her TX has been stepped on.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why bother with ATC at all, when we can solely rely on marshallers and rampies for safety assurance?
Guys; bear with me. This might seem too radical for some from the sheltered world: and no insults are necessary. This is a story about the real world; it does happen.
When I first went to Italy, and went to a stand-up cafe counter, I learnt that their system was pay first with the madam and then collect from the long bar. WTF I thought. Well, PDQ, I realised it worked great. It was different, but worked great. I waited a minute, paid and received an excellent boiling coffee and fresh crostini standing at the bar.
Fast forward to return to N.Europe and the buffet canteen style. Stand in a queue for ages; arrive at coffee machine; stand in same queue for ages and pay. Find some grotty table to sit at and drink tepid coffee. Give me the Italian system any day. But foreigners think it 'strano'.
I can't remember the airport, but it was busy and long complicated taxi-ways. Ground controller was 100 words a minute.
Consider the norm. Captain asks for push & start. ATC give start clearance and a lengthy pushback instruction - "tail west, push to C, pull forward to abeam #62, beware of push back from #60." Captain attempt to read this back having forgotten to have pen handy. He then relays this to the head-set man, who then tells the tug driver. Swiss cheese anyone? Maybe English is not first language of any of them. Maybe captain's first visit and is unfamiliar. "Say again," might be very common - on a busy frequency. And, as captain am I really interested in the push-back routing? Do I have any control over it? Can I see where I'm going? No to all. I'm really more interested in what the taxi route is going to be AFTER the tug has gone.
Now, at the forgotten airport:
Captain asks for start. This clearance is given so that a/c arrive in a timely manner and correct sequence at the relevant runway. Captain then tells headset man they have start clearance. He, or tug driver, then ask for push-back clearance and receive the lengthy instruction with which they are familiar in a language they may understand better. Any caveats are added and understood. The ATC guy may not be the busy ground controller, who is looking after the taxying a/c; he may be just a push-back coordinator. Captain is asked to release brakes and off you go. Crash avoidance is responsibility of headset man + tug driver. They know the place and can see where you are going. (Last time I looked the wing mirror had been removed from my a/c, unless you are tug pilot.
The point being it worked a treat. It was different, but worked great with no traumas. The guys who controlled the motion of the a/c also were responsible for not pranging it. It sure cut down a lot of radio speak and removed a few slices of cheese.
"The mind is a wonderful thing and like a parachute: it works better when open."
Guys; bear with me. This might seem too radical for some from the sheltered world: and no insults are necessary. This is a story about the real world; it does happen.
When I first went to Italy, and went to a stand-up cafe counter, I learnt that their system was pay first with the madam and then collect from the long bar. WTF I thought. Well, PDQ, I realised it worked great. It was different, but worked great. I waited a minute, paid and received an excellent boiling coffee and fresh crostini standing at the bar.
Fast forward to return to N.Europe and the buffet canteen style. Stand in a queue for ages; arrive at coffee machine; stand in same queue for ages and pay. Find some grotty table to sit at and drink tepid coffee. Give me the Italian system any day. But foreigners think it 'strano'.
I can't remember the airport, but it was busy and long complicated taxi-ways. Ground controller was 100 words a minute.
Consider the norm. Captain asks for push & start. ATC give start clearance and a lengthy pushback instruction - "tail west, push to C, pull forward to abeam #62, beware of push back from #60." Captain attempt to read this back having forgotten to have pen handy. He then relays this to the head-set man, who then tells the tug driver. Swiss cheese anyone? Maybe English is not first language of any of them. Maybe captain's first visit and is unfamiliar. "Say again," might be very common - on a busy frequency. And, as captain am I really interested in the push-back routing? Do I have any control over it? Can I see where I'm going? No to all. I'm really more interested in what the taxi route is going to be AFTER the tug has gone.
Now, at the forgotten airport:
Captain asks for start. This clearance is given so that a/c arrive in a timely manner and correct sequence at the relevant runway. Captain then tells headset man they have start clearance. He, or tug driver, then ask for push-back clearance and receive the lengthy instruction with which they are familiar in a language they may understand better. Any caveats are added and understood. The ATC guy may not be the busy ground controller, who is looking after the taxying a/c; he may be just a push-back coordinator. Captain is asked to release brakes and off you go. Crash avoidance is responsibility of headset man + tug driver. They know the place and can see where you are going. (Last time I looked the wing mirror had been removed from my a/c, unless you are tug pilot.
The point being it worked a treat. It was different, but worked great with no traumas. The guys who controlled the motion of the a/c also were responsible for not pranging it. It sure cut down a lot of radio speak and removed a few slices of cheese.
"The mind is a wonderful thing and like a parachute: it works better when open."
In an earlier post about this I mentioned an incident which I had many years ago where I made a simple & obvious mistake; & in which an apology to the a/c Captain sufficed ( rather than filing reports & possibly getting shirty). If I was still an ATCO, how I would yearn for those days. More importantly, how much more would I yearn for the days before the Internet, YouTube & whatever interfering busybody who chooses to make comments about things of which he has little or no understanding,when your every move is scrutinized by "armchair ATCOS & pilots" !
Despite my previous post, this is an incident which needs a sober & professional assessment; & the rest of us, who weren't involved, to keep our noses out !
Despite my previous post, this is an incident which needs a sober & professional assessment; & the rest of us, who weren't involved, to keep our noses out !
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: BRS/GVA
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hoss183, bear in mind that the <unintelligible> parts may well be due to crossed TXs, which are not uncommon on busy ground FRQs (try JFK). The controller may not be aware that part of her TX has been stepped on.
RAT 5
Sounds like it might have been in Germany? DUS used to have this procedure until a couple of years ago and I think HAJ still does.
As you say, a bit 'different' but works well.
Blind Pew
What a tragic story. Do you mean that the poor pilot made some sort of error and was jumped on by others on the freq? He must have had some extra problems at home as well if he felt so bad that he hanged himself later. So sad.
To come back to the incident at DUB; my experience is that it can get busy and a tad confusing with unusual push-back procedures and ground markings, as well as quite lengthy taxi clearances. Couple this with a few missed calls and double transmissions and it's no surprise that there is the odd 'event' that needs trapping. I haven't listened to the recording but I wonder what was going through the minds of the pilots who felt compelled to add their tuppeny-worth - did they really think that they were contributing anything useful? If not, it's normally a good idea to just shut up, especially on a busy frequency.
Sounds like it might have been in Germany? DUS used to have this procedure until a couple of years ago and I think HAJ still does.
As you say, a bit 'different' but works well.
Blind Pew
What a tragic story. Do you mean that the poor pilot made some sort of error and was jumped on by others on the freq? He must have had some extra problems at home as well if he felt so bad that he hanged himself later. So sad.
To come back to the incident at DUB; my experience is that it can get busy and a tad confusing with unusual push-back procedures and ground markings, as well as quite lengthy taxi clearances. Couple this with a few missed calls and double transmissions and it's no surprise that there is the odd 'event' that needs trapping. I haven't listened to the recording but I wonder what was going through the minds of the pilots who felt compelled to add their tuppeny-worth - did they really think that they were contributing anything useful? If not, it's normally a good idea to just shut up, especially on a busy frequency.
[sorry- just need to talk to the ramp guy for a sec. Something about a traffic snarl up on the taxiway]
Right sorted, now where was I...?
PDR
Pegase Driver
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 74
Posts: 3,686
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RAT5 : your posts make my day and reconcile me with the time lost to read through some of the nonsense here ..
When I was a lad , pilots used to come to the bar at the bottom of the Tower, and when there was a problem one of them would say after the first beer : " Oh, By the way ...."
The issue raised was debated ,and if it was one , the culprit had to pay a round and for sure it never occurred again.
If there was no solution or no one to blame , , one would say : "**** happens ! " and that was it .
When I was a lad , pilots used to come to the bar at the bottom of the Tower, and when there was a problem one of them would say after the first beer : " Oh, By the way ...."
The issue raised was debated ,and if it was one , the culprit had to pay a round and for sure it never occurred again.
If there was no solution or no one to blame , , one would say : "**** happens ! " and that was it .
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Nirvana
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Give the guy a break - obviously the wife left and took the kids. There is a bright side, an ideal candidate for command training I would have thought
CB
PS. To remove any doubt, I am taking the p..........................
CB
PS. To remove any doubt, I am taking the p..........................
