World Cup, BA and PR
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World Cup, BA and PR
A few days ago I found myself (SLF) on a late-afternoon BA B-767 flight from Moscow to London. A couple of World Cup matches had been completed not long before we boarded. Not knowing the results, I asked two of the cabin crew, on separate occasions, if the flight crew could find out what the scores were and announce them on the PA system (I felt sure a number of the other passengers would be interested, as well). I overheard one of the cabin crew calling the flight deck to make the request. No match results were forthcoming and I mentioned the matter to the crew as I deplaned in LHR. I was referred to the captain himself, standing nearby, to whom I expressed surprise that my curiosity could not have have been satisfied by a brief radio exchange with a ground station or with BA in London. A decidedly prickly captain, who perhaps imagined he still worked for BOAC, harrumphed that this was "impossible". I told him I didn't believe him for one second and that a little PR goes a long way, particularly in the airline business (I refrained from telling him that, in my opinion, this was not how an airline that lost nearly 0.5 billion pounds last year should operate) and we bade each other a somewhat frosty goodbye .
I wonder if my experience would have been the same on the day of the England-Argentina match......
Any comments from the professionals?
Rockhound
I wonder if my experience would have been the same on the day of the England-Argentina match......
Any comments from the professionals?
Rockhound
Certainly on our patch of the planet it is not unknown for crews to request info on such sporting events. The result is normally transmitted instantly - somebody usually knows!!!
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I'd much rather that the operating crew were doing what the SLF are paying them for and flying or monitoring the aircraft.
Where do you draw the line? Horse racing results from major races? Celebrity births, marriages or deaths? The latest Big Brother evictee?
An old Captain I used to fly charter with once said (on a night Tenerife when for the nth time that season we had been asked to PA for Kevin, wanting to know if Tracey would marry him): "Tell them to get stuffed (or something like that)...this is a commercial flight, not a radio request show"." Enough said.
Where do you draw the line? Horse racing results from major races? Celebrity births, marriages or deaths? The latest Big Brother evictee?
An old Captain I used to fly charter with once said (on a night Tenerife when for the nth time that season we had been asked to PA for Kevin, wanting to know if Tracey would marry him): "Tell them to get stuffed (or something like that)...this is a commercial flight, not a radio request show"." Enough said.
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I was operating yesderday during the England vrs Argentina game. The london controller announced the score as soon as the goal was scored and kept us up to date with the match! We relayed the info to the pax who were keen to know. Why not......unless the sector is really busy.
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Bar code
all the old Captains must be retired, I had at least 5 requests for the Eng vs Arg score. Ask me any question, if I know and have got the time I'll answer, how-ever if it's on big brother there may be a delay while I phone the wife....
all the old Captains must be retired, I had at least 5 requests for the Eng vs Arg score. Ask me any question, if I know and have got the time I'll answer, how-ever if it's on big brother there may be a delay while I phone the wife....
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A little PR goes a long way and our pax BHD-NCL were delighted when we revealed the score of the England vs Argentina game.
When speaking to the handling agents, passing on fuel
requirements for the next sector etc, one further request was all it took !
For the record I'm not an avid footie fan but as I said earlier, a little PR goes a long way.
When speaking to the handling agents, passing on fuel
requirements for the next sector etc, one further request was all it took !
For the record I'm not an avid footie fan but as I said earlier, a little PR goes a long way.
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Barcode get a life!
On a 4 hr sector from Moscow to LHR there will have been plenty of opportunity to find out the score and let the guests know. If you don't want to use the PA, send the message back with the CC.
We can all do a little more for the pax. When they ask something so simple - just do it!
Now if that had been London to Manchester ..............................
On a 4 hr sector from Moscow to LHR there will have been plenty of opportunity to find out the score and let the guests know. If you don't want to use the PA, send the message back with the CC.
We can all do a little more for the pax. When they ask something so simple - just do it!
Now if that had been London to Manchester ..............................
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I rememeber being airborne on the day of the boat race on a BA aircraft. When I asked the hostess if she knew the result (it had been rowed while we were airborne) not only could she tell me straight away, but it was the right result - Cambridge had won 
One happy pax.
P.S. I hear that about every 6 months a memo goes round the airlines from NATS asking that crews do not ask London Centre for sports results and the like. It stops briefly, and gradually returns 'til the next memo
One happy pax.P.S. I hear that about every 6 months a memo goes round the airlines from NATS asking that crews do not ask London Centre for sports results and the like. It stops briefly, and gradually returns 'til the next memo
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You chaps are forgetting that:
This was not for the England Match but for other less important ones.
Longer sectors out of UK VHF range are not ideal for asking results......which should not be done on ATC frequencies anyway!
Company frequencies are not permitted to be used for Sports results!
The aeroplane probably wasn't equipped with HF and did not have a pilot available to listen to the BBC and wait for the Sports results to come up.
I think it is more important to get you to your destination safely! Sports results in the air from pilots are NOT DESIRABLE! Anyone remember the Brazilian pilot who flew the wrong way and crashed in the jungle listening to a football match ? That crew behaved impeccably- you want sports results go by a paper! So Rockhound, take you criticisms of their professionalism and go ram them somewhere- they had an important job to do thank you very much.
Now please read under where it says 'Reporting Points' what defines that particular forum and have a think next time where you should make such postings (or in this case not bother). You will observe someone had to move it.
This was not for the England Match but for other less important ones.
Longer sectors out of UK VHF range are not ideal for asking results......which should not be done on ATC frequencies anyway!
Company frequencies are not permitted to be used for Sports results!
The aeroplane probably wasn't equipped with HF and did not have a pilot available to listen to the BBC and wait for the Sports results to come up.
I think it is more important to get you to your destination safely! Sports results in the air from pilots are NOT DESIRABLE! Anyone remember the Brazilian pilot who flew the wrong way and crashed in the jungle listening to a football match ? That crew behaved impeccably- you want sports results go by a paper! So Rockhound, take you criticisms of their professionalism and go ram them somewhere- they had an important job to do thank you very much.
Now please read under where it says 'Reporting Points' what defines that particular forum and have a think next time where you should make such postings (or in this case not bother). You will observe someone had to move it.
Last edited by Notso Fantastic; 9th Jun 2002 at 08:27.
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Notso, you don't need HF between Moscow and London.
Sure, we all know what the rules say about use of ATC (and company) frequencies for such matters. Provided that the frequency is relatively clear, I would have less trouble with people breaking that rule than I would with them listening to whatever they can find on the ADF.
Of course safety has to come first. You mention the famous Varig flight. You don't seem clear about the details, however. Both pilots were listening to the football commentary. When the "Pull Up" command came, one said "Shut up, Gringo" and disabled it. I don't know what your definition of "impeccably" is, but I hope you were being sarcastic. "Impeccable" that is not.
If ATC were too busy, or the flight crew were too busy, then tough. No results possible. They have a job to do, and that must come first.
Having said that, I would be extremely surprised if there wasn't a moment in the cruise when ATC was quiet and a polite enquiry could have been made. A large part of our job is to provide a service to the paying passengers, and just a little PR goes a long way. No need to go overboard with it, just bear in mind that we want them to come back and use us again. If the captain on this particular flight felt it was below his dignity to demean himself with such mundane matters, then one hopes he will retire soon. If the problem was lack of time and attention to his primary duty, then it costs nothing to explain that in a friendly manner to the enquiring passenger when Rockhound asked on disembarking. Alternatively, he could include in his mid-cruise PA that they had been asked to find out the results and hoped to do so if they got a chance.
It's all about PR and looking after the punters, Notso. Better to spend your time doing that than the Times Crossword. You can keep the pax happy and feeling cared-for AND do the rest of your job entirely competently, professionally and safely and (with reference to your rather aggressive and rude comments to Rockhound), politely.
Sure, we all know what the rules say about use of ATC (and company) frequencies for such matters. Provided that the frequency is relatively clear, I would have less trouble with people breaking that rule than I would with them listening to whatever they can find on the ADF.
Of course safety has to come first. You mention the famous Varig flight. You don't seem clear about the details, however. Both pilots were listening to the football commentary. When the "Pull Up" command came, one said "Shut up, Gringo" and disabled it. I don't know what your definition of "impeccably" is, but I hope you were being sarcastic. "Impeccable" that is not.
If ATC were too busy, or the flight crew were too busy, then tough. No results possible. They have a job to do, and that must come first.
Having said that, I would be extremely surprised if there wasn't a moment in the cruise when ATC was quiet and a polite enquiry could have been made. A large part of our job is to provide a service to the paying passengers, and just a little PR goes a long way. No need to go overboard with it, just bear in mind that we want them to come back and use us again. If the captain on this particular flight felt it was below his dignity to demean himself with such mundane matters, then one hopes he will retire soon. If the problem was lack of time and attention to his primary duty, then it costs nothing to explain that in a friendly manner to the enquiring passenger when Rockhound asked on disembarking. Alternatively, he could include in his mid-cruise PA that they had been asked to find out the results and hoped to do so if they got a chance.
It's all about PR and looking after the punters, Notso. Better to spend your time doing that than the Times Crossword. You can keep the pax happy and feeling cared-for AND do the rest of your job entirely competently, professionally and safely and (with reference to your rather aggressive and rude comments to Rockhound), politely.
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Notso Fantastic
please get your facts straight. That Varig flight had navigation problems and the pilot tried to correct those by locating the signs broadcasted by a known local radio station (i'm not a pilot, so someone can probably explain this much better than me).
Just another urban legend...
Regards
FR
please get your facts straight. That Varig flight had navigation problems and the pilot tried to correct those by locating the signs broadcasted by a known local radio station (i'm not a pilot, so someone can probably explain this much better than me).
Just another urban legend...
Regards
FR
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Wasn't the "Shut up Gringo" comment made somewhere in Spain by a Mexican airline whilst descending over (and in to) mountainous terrrain? If the BA aircraft had no ACARs they'd have no way of contacting London directly from Moscow, and even if they had, the company would get very annoyed by people wasting time and money sending requests for sports results. I for one would not like to spend my time flying in eastern europe distracting ATCOs who don't speak the best english by constantly grilling them about sports results they may not even know. Id rather they concentrated on keeping me away from other aircraft. By the time the aircraft reached somewhere in Europe where they speak decent English and might know the results I'd imagine the crew had forgotten about the request. Even if they hadn't, do you really think ATCOs over Europe want to have their time wasted by being asked sports results every five minutes? I know the guys who work the BA company frequency at LHR get seriously annoyed when people waste their time calling up for trivial things, they're busy enough as it is.
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Fly Virgin mate! We are kept up to date with all the scores from Ops and are encouraged to relay them to the pax when safe and convenient to do so. The way that this tournament is going I think it will capture an increasing amount of public interest and adds a bit of fun to the routine.
Controversial, moi?
Please, please can we remain civilised?
FlyingRabbit, 3rd September 1989: Flight RG 254 took off from Marabà at 17.25h for the last leg of the Sao Paulo - Marabà - Bélem flight. By accident the pilot entered a 270 deg heading into the flight computer, instead of 027deg. At about 20.45h the aircraft had to make a forced landing in the jungle due to fuel exhaustion. The aircraft was located two days later. The crew were listening to a football match at during a good proportion of trhe flight.
Hugmonster you are getting confused, see above and on the flight I think you are referring to the "Shut-up, Gringo!" statement was an Avianca 747 on approach into Madrid on 27th November 1983. They were the last words on the CVR in reponse to the GPWS warning system a few seconds before flying inbto a mountain.
To the subject in question it is I believe against UK law to use aircraft radios for non-operational matters. Patently stupid, unnecessary and almost unenforceable.
If I have time I do try and obtain any results asked for. It is not always possible or sensible but I would at least let the person concerned know that I had tried.
Rockhound, I am sorry that you received such an abrasive response. The majority of us in BA realise that we are in dire straits and work very hard to look after our bread and butter. The response you received was wrong and I believe not typical.
As far as Notso is concerned he is actually a very pleasant chap but his postings here and on the BA Compuserve forum belie his real character.
FlyingRabbit, 3rd September 1989: Flight RG 254 took off from Marabà at 17.25h for the last leg of the Sao Paulo - Marabà - Bélem flight. By accident the pilot entered a 270 deg heading into the flight computer, instead of 027deg. At about 20.45h the aircraft had to make a forced landing in the jungle due to fuel exhaustion. The aircraft was located two days later. The crew were listening to a football match at during a good proportion of trhe flight.
Hugmonster you are getting confused, see above and on the flight I think you are referring to the "Shut-up, Gringo!" statement was an Avianca 747 on approach into Madrid on 27th November 1983. They were the last words on the CVR in reponse to the GPWS warning system a few seconds before flying inbto a mountain.
To the subject in question it is I believe against UK law to use aircraft radios for non-operational matters. Patently stupid, unnecessary and almost unenforceable.
If I have time I do try and obtain any results asked for. It is not always possible or sensible but I would at least let the person concerned know that I had tried.
Rockhound, I am sorry that you received such an abrasive response. The majority of us in BA realise that we are in dire straits and work very hard to look after our bread and butter. The response you received was wrong and I believe not typical.
As far as Notso is concerned he is actually a very pleasant chap but his postings here and on the BA Compuserve forum belie his real character.
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Such requests are surely handled when time and situation allows. A friend of mine flew back from somewhere in Africa last year on the night of the Germany v England match. At time of boarding it was 1-1. About an hour into the flight the Captain announced the final 5-1 scoreline.
This must be tempered though with the fact that pilots and controllers must be concerned in flight safety first and foremost, passengers requests and football come second.
Can you imagine the board of inquiry chewing over a CVR that went something like this:
"London good afternoon xyz with you FL350, request England score"
"xyz, 1-0 England, Beckham penalty, 44 th minute, s**t avoiding action turn ..."
Last sound on CVR "TRAFFIC TRAFFIC DESCEND DESCEND".
This must be tempered though with the fact that pilots and controllers must be concerned in flight safety first and foremost, passengers requests and football come second.
Can you imagine the board of inquiry chewing over a CVR that went something like this:
"London good afternoon xyz with you FL350, request England score"
"xyz, 1-0 England, Beckham penalty, 44 th minute, s**t avoiding action turn ..."
Last sound on CVR "TRAFFIC TRAFFIC DESCEND DESCEND".
Last edited by timzsta; 9th Jun 2002 at 22:04.
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Possibly I am getting confused - but I don't think so.
There's a tale that dates from the time when Sir Richard was making his transatlantic ballon crossing. Apparently a Virgin 747, having established contact with Shanwick, requested information on how the Company Chairman was doing. They didn't know, told the Virgin to stand by, and they got the info and relayed RB's latest reported position.
This was overheard by a BA flight, who called up asking "Shanwick, Speedbird xxx, can you tell us where Lord King is please?"
Shanwick were reported to be "not amused".
There's a tale that dates from the time when Sir Richard was making his transatlantic ballon crossing. Apparently a Virgin 747, having established contact with Shanwick, requested information on how the Company Chairman was doing. They didn't know, told the Virgin to stand by, and they got the info and relayed RB's latest reported position.
This was overheard by a BA flight, who called up asking "Shanwick, Speedbird xxx, can you tell us where Lord King is please?"
Shanwick were reported to be "not amused".
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Simple strategy in London's airspace.
If you can check-in immediately on frequency, and determine soon after its not busy, then ask. Its then up to the ATCO to a) tell you where to go, or b) tell you!!
If I know I'll tell you, I know what its like not being able to see a big event, and I myself make sure I'm updated instantly when something happens. Relaying it takes 5 seconds, sorry to those I have had to ignore in the past.
If you can check-in immediately on frequency, and determine soon after its not busy, then ask. Its then up to the ATCO to a) tell you where to go, or b) tell you!!
If I know I'll tell you, I know what its like not being able to see a big event, and I myself make sure I'm updated instantly when something happens. Relaying it takes 5 seconds, sorry to those I have had to ignore in the past.