BA Pilot ATC Incident at DUB
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With regards the video editing and the go arounds, I've managed to speak to someone who was also spotting on the day and witnessed it.
First, there was a 2 minute "silence" from the BA guy after he was cleared onto the runway having claimed to be ready. This is when the controller replied "Oh negative ..." This was edited out as with liveatc.net at eidw, there is no sole tower frequency, it switches to approach etc during silences on one frequency. Therefore you would have heard 2 mins of unrelated ATC chat in between had it not been edited though i feel it should have been mentioned. This works against the BA guy further.
Next though, the 2 go arounds is absolute nonsense. The guy seemed baffled as to where that came from as there weren't even any aircraft on the approach at the time. Had it been true you would have heard them on the tower freq.
First, there was a 2 minute "silence" from the BA guy after he was cleared onto the runway having claimed to be ready. This is when the controller replied "Oh negative ..." This was edited out as with liveatc.net at eidw, there is no sole tower frequency, it switches to approach etc during silences on one frequency. Therefore you would have heard 2 mins of unrelated ATC chat in between had it not been edited though i feel it should have been mentioned. This works against the BA guy further.
Next though, the 2 go arounds is absolute nonsense. The guy seemed baffled as to where that came from as there weren't even any aircraft on the approach at the time. Had it been true you would have heard them on the tower freq.
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Reminds me of an 'incident' at CDG many years back when I was 'barrelling' down the ILS on 27. Strongish southerly crosswind. Regional Nigel cleared 'immediate' from intermediate and, I think, one of the 'new' DanAir/BA guys cleared line up full length, 'be ready'. Regional Nigel then started muttering about the wind being out of limits and did not move. Pseudo Nigel confirmed fully ready. I was getting closer to a runway with metallic obstructions. To this day, I swear I do not know who said it, but a voice piped up and said 'Nigel - either sh1t or get off the pot". Regional limped off with tail between legs, Pseudo rolled, I landed. It appears things may not have changed.
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I hardly know a place on earth I would like to be less than on an active runway.
It is a pretty dangerous place, with heavy things moving very fast all doing their best to hit me at some point.
So when being cleared for takeoff, I'll see to it that we get moving quickly, and after landing, I'll do my best to get off that fastlane with minimal delay.
Also, if there are checklists to be carried out during lineup, I find those procedures designed rather poorly. During lineup your eyes should not be on a piece of paper or a computerscreen, but take a glance of the killer items (flaps, fuel, trim) and otherwise stay outside and scan for those fast pieces of metal, that even the best controllers have missed before.
I don't see how taking a phonecall would improve safety at this point.
If a controler tells me to get off that strip, I'll follow that advice gladly, and sort out all the talking and arguing at a safer location (a taxiway, for example).
And if I was the guy behind such an aircraft as the BA is being portrayed as in the Youtube clip, you would most certainly hear my voice on the frequency too, uttering words that would make every Bavarian blush.
It is a pretty dangerous place, with heavy things moving very fast all doing their best to hit me at some point.
So when being cleared for takeoff, I'll see to it that we get moving quickly, and after landing, I'll do my best to get off that fastlane with minimal delay.
Also, if there are checklists to be carried out during lineup, I find those procedures designed rather poorly. During lineup your eyes should not be on a piece of paper or a computerscreen, but take a glance of the killer items (flaps, fuel, trim) and otherwise stay outside and scan for those fast pieces of metal, that even the best controllers have missed before.
I don't see how taking a phonecall would improve safety at this point.
If a controler tells me to get off that strip, I'll follow that advice gladly, and sort out all the talking and arguing at a safer location (a taxiway, for example).
And if I was the guy behind such an aircraft as the BA is being portrayed as in the Youtube clip, you would most certainly hear my voice on the frequency too, uttering words that would make every Bavarian blush.
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Ignore the Youtube clip. The poster has obviously some axe to grind with BA.
1. The aircraft was an A320, not A319 (G-EUYK)
2. The 8 aircraft waiting to go was actually a single Aer Lingus flight (no idea of type)
3. There were no go arounds and sod all in the immediate area
He cleverly edited out the most aggravating sod, the ground controller, who appeared to have a bad attitude right at the beginning.
1. The aircraft was an A320, not A319 (G-EUYK)
2. The 8 aircraft waiting to go was actually a single Aer Lingus flight (no idea of type)
3. There were no go arounds and sod all in the immediate area
He cleverly edited out the most aggravating sod, the ground controller, who appeared to have a bad attitude right at the beginning.
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The problem with DUblin is the short taxi to the runway. Cabin was not obviously ready and to start taxing to the holding point in the first place blocking all departure was not a great idea. However crew may not be familiar with that in Dublin. He did however ignore 3 ATC instructions which should be looked at.No where in the world would you get away with that. 2 minutes is a along time in any airport with multiple departure and arrivals and I find it very hard to believe the airport was not busy as it is one of the busiest days of the year as the 25th the airport is closed. I think the answering a phone comment was him getting cabin secure from cabin crew.
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I didn't think the edited version posted on youtube reflected too well on either party.
ATCO Annie was being a bit intrusive, labouring the point how many times she had told him to clear the runway (she lost count eventually ) & drawing out the conversation so long that she was indeed negating his ability to carry out a checklist (which many operators do whilst lining up as SOP's not personal preference on the day.)
Whilst in full agreement that Nige should have cleared the runway when told, rather than employing delaying tactics, the whole thing deteriorated into a bit of a "personal" bun-fight right at the stage that he seemed to be going, by Miss ATCO starting to labour the point again vis a vis his refusal to comply (leave that for the report over a coffee on your next break love )
Without hearing the transcript of what took place before, and how/whether BA stated their readiness on ground freq + the alleged silence "breaks", I think the only conclusion we can draw is that this "situation" was not handled in a very optimum fashion by all concerned.
Seems the youtube OP may have had some axe to grind, either nationality or BA based.
ATCO Annie was being a bit intrusive, labouring the point how many times she had told him to clear the runway (she lost count eventually ) & drawing out the conversation so long that she was indeed negating his ability to carry out a checklist (which many operators do whilst lining up as SOP's not personal preference on the day.)
Whilst in full agreement that Nige should have cleared the runway when told, rather than employing delaying tactics, the whole thing deteriorated into a bit of a "personal" bun-fight right at the stage that he seemed to be going, by Miss ATCO starting to labour the point again vis a vis his refusal to comply (leave that for the report over a coffee on your next break love )
Without hearing the transcript of what took place before, and how/whether BA stated their readiness on ground freq + the alleged silence "breaks", I think the only conclusion we can draw is that this "situation" was not handled in a very optimum fashion by all concerned.
Seems the youtube OP may have had some axe to grind, either nationality or BA based.
DXB............the guy would be murdered. And rightly so. Arrogance is the only word for it, no excuse.Join Date: Aug 2012
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Maybe Atco Annie should have cancelled his flight-plan and told him to Return To Stand. If he ignores 3 ATCO instructions whilst on the ground, how many more instructions will he ignore whilst airborne?
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Defend the defendable!
I think,ATC girl demonstrated her professionalism, by getting him airborne!
When you decide to disobey ATC in a busy airport environment,when YOU don't have the full picture...what next!
I agree....he did keep calm....Well Bravo.....hope a lesson has been learnt,by whoever needs it!
I think,ATC girl demonstrated her professionalism, by getting him airborne!
When you decide to disobey ATC in a busy airport environment,when YOU don't have the full picture...what next!
I agree....he did keep calm....Well Bravo.....hope a lesson has been learnt,by whoever needs it!
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Years ago at Chicago. Aircraft lands in blowing snow. Nigel told "into position" and slowly lines up. Cleared for take-off Nigel announces he'd like a "minute or two". Mrs ATCO says "Shift your ass Nigel, landing traffic". Nigel went...!
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I think that the youtube posted is rather biased against BA and has edited the tape to suit his own agenda.
Although there was a delay in the cabin being ready (hence the phonecall from the cabin), the pilot declared fully ready before he was cleared to line up. It is not uncommon to complete the BTOC whilst lining up (some aircraft that I have flown needed to be lined up before it could be completed). While he was completing this checklist the controller launched into a 16 second admonishment. When the pilot said 'standby' he was asking her to allow him to complete the BTOC uninterrupted, a request that she ignored. Had the BA aircraft been made to vacate the runway it would have caused a much longer delay than allowing him to take-off.
I realise that BA bashing is great sport, so I don't expect to have many supporters.
Although there was a delay in the cabin being ready (hence the phonecall from the cabin), the pilot declared fully ready before he was cleared to line up. It is not uncommon to complete the BTOC whilst lining up (some aircraft that I have flown needed to be lined up before it could be completed). While he was completing this checklist the controller launched into a 16 second admonishment. When the pilot said 'standby' he was asking her to allow him to complete the BTOC uninterrupted, a request that she ignored. Had the BA aircraft been made to vacate the runway it would have caused a much longer delay than allowing him to take-off.
I realise that BA bashing is great sport, so I don't expect to have many supporters.
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I am reminded of the time in the early seventies when Frankfurt ATC were working to rule, creating huge delays. BEA and Panam shuttled back and forth to Berlin. Calls for start clearance to FRA ground resulted in replies such as "you are number seventy in the sequence". Shortly we realised that Panam were calling for start up as soon as they had touched down thus gaining a few places. Not to be beaten Bealine in the Metro hold with an EAT of one hour called Ground for start up to be asked "are your doors closed and passengers seated?" With hand on heart he replied "affirmative" so was allocated a start position in the sequence. When eventually he landed, taxied to the stand next to Panam, and loaded the pax by this time his sequence time came up so the doors were closed and off he went, leaving Panam fuming. Needless to say this scheme couldn't last for long but was fun whilst it did.
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Just been listening to the liveatc feed and today's BA845 has just has his push back clearance cancelled as he called back saying he wasn't actually "ready". A non event but oh the irony.
Airclues and 26-er got me recalling my education at LGW in the eighties. Nigel, beside me, calls for push. Tug nowhere to be seen, doors still open, bits of netting, or something,still dangling out of cargo doors, etc, etc. Huge delays if you missed your slot so we did think that this was going to be good. Atco Annie asks if he was "fully " ready for push. Nige says, beautifully, "affirm". She, then, went ballistic. She claimed that she could see him from her armchair in GMC and gave us all a lengthy definition of what "fully ready" meant. The tirade must have lasted only a while but seemed to go on forever. Push denied and Nige drops out of the sequence for about two days but he did have the presence of mind to say, in response to her lesson ; "Gosh, I get all this at home. I come to work thinking I'll get away from it!" I think we all took a full minutes silence in order to compose ourselves.
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Cleared for take-off Nigel announces he'd like a "minute or two".