China Airlines B747 Crash (Merged)
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Underwater cameras give first glimpse of submerged China Airlines wreckage
By WILLIAM FOREMAN
The Associated Press
5/31/02 4:34 AM
TAIPEI, Taiwan (AP) -- Murky underwater video footage provided the first glimpse on Friday of the submerged wreckage of a China Airlines jet in the Taiwan Strait: a battered luggage container, a dining cart and a wing ripped from the plane's body.
Investigators are trying to determine why the Taipei-Hong Kong flight suddenly broke apart 20 minutes after takeoff on Saturday and plunged into the sea before the pilots could send a distress signal. The crash killed all 225 aboard the Boeing 747-200.
Hundreds of relatives attended a Buddhist memorial service for the victims of the crash on Friday. They bowed before strips of symbolic yellow paper that filled the walls of an auditorium in the capital, Taipei.
The underwater images shown to reporters were filmed by naval underwater video cameras 200 feet underwater about 25 miles north of the Penghu island chain, off Taiwan's west coast.
The cameras showed a wing that appeared to have been ripped from the plane's fuselage. Nearby was a section of an overhead luggage compartment and a dining cart.
Investigators still declined to speculate on the accident's cause.
Raising the wreckage could take time, investigator David Lee said. Strong currents and high waves were making diving conditions unsafe, he said.
"The divers haven't been able to go into the water very much," Lee said.
At another spot nearby, divers were closing in on the plane's "black boxes," or the voice and flight data recorders, Lee said. The devices might be key to explaining why the plane went down.
So far, no bodies have been seen in the underwater footage, Lee said. Less than half of the victims have been found, and relatives mourned those killed Friday at Buddhist funerals traditionally held seven days after a deadly accident.
At the large ceremony in Taipei, a chorus of monks and nuns chanted Buddhist scriptures to put the dead souls to rest. About 400 relatives joined airline executives in dark suits and pilots in their white uniforms.
Yu Chia-yi and her two siblings lost their mother, who was on a group tour to China. A picture attached to a symbolic yellow paper strip showed the woman in her 50s smiling in her newly permed hair.
"We had encouraged mom to travel and enjoy herself now that we have all grown up and can take care of ourselves," said a sobbing Yu.
Nearby, a woman mourning another victim put two bags of sweets on a table of dishes being offered to the dead.
"These are the candies mom loved most," she said.
Meanwhile, Taiwanese investigators briefed a newly arrived team from American Underwater Search and Survey Ltd., which specializes in deep-sea recovery, Lee said. The company, which searched for a TWA flight that crashed in 1996 near the coast of Long Island, N.Y., had been hired to help with the recovery.
It is customary for Taiwanese airline leaders to resign after a crash, and the 10 board members of the quasi-governmental foundation that owns a controlling stake in China Airlines have stepped down. It was not certain how many, if any, would be asked to keep their jobs.
Those who resigned included China Airlines Chairman Y.L. Lee and President Philip Wei. Traditionally, the airline's chairman and president are board members of the foundation, called the China Aviation Development Foundation. If they are not rehired, they might also lose their top jobs at the airline.
By WILLIAM FOREMAN
The Associated Press
5/31/02 4:34 AM
TAIPEI, Taiwan (AP) -- Murky underwater video footage provided the first glimpse on Friday of the submerged wreckage of a China Airlines jet in the Taiwan Strait: a battered luggage container, a dining cart and a wing ripped from the plane's body.
Investigators are trying to determine why the Taipei-Hong Kong flight suddenly broke apart 20 minutes after takeoff on Saturday and plunged into the sea before the pilots could send a distress signal. The crash killed all 225 aboard the Boeing 747-200.
Hundreds of relatives attended a Buddhist memorial service for the victims of the crash on Friday. They bowed before strips of symbolic yellow paper that filled the walls of an auditorium in the capital, Taipei.
The underwater images shown to reporters were filmed by naval underwater video cameras 200 feet underwater about 25 miles north of the Penghu island chain, off Taiwan's west coast.
The cameras showed a wing that appeared to have been ripped from the plane's fuselage. Nearby was a section of an overhead luggage compartment and a dining cart.
Investigators still declined to speculate on the accident's cause.
Raising the wreckage could take time, investigator David Lee said. Strong currents and high waves were making diving conditions unsafe, he said.
"The divers haven't been able to go into the water very much," Lee said.
At another spot nearby, divers were closing in on the plane's "black boxes," or the voice and flight data recorders, Lee said. The devices might be key to explaining why the plane went down.
So far, no bodies have been seen in the underwater footage, Lee said. Less than half of the victims have been found, and relatives mourned those killed Friday at Buddhist funerals traditionally held seven days after a deadly accident.
At the large ceremony in Taipei, a chorus of monks and nuns chanted Buddhist scriptures to put the dead souls to rest. About 400 relatives joined airline executives in dark suits and pilots in their white uniforms.
Yu Chia-yi and her two siblings lost their mother, who was on a group tour to China. A picture attached to a symbolic yellow paper strip showed the woman in her 50s smiling in her newly permed hair.
"We had encouraged mom to travel and enjoy herself now that we have all grown up and can take care of ourselves," said a sobbing Yu.
Nearby, a woman mourning another victim put two bags of sweets on a table of dishes being offered to the dead.
"These are the candies mom loved most," she said.
Meanwhile, Taiwanese investigators briefed a newly arrived team from American Underwater Search and Survey Ltd., which specializes in deep-sea recovery, Lee said. The company, which searched for a TWA flight that crashed in 1996 near the coast of Long Island, N.Y., had been hired to help with the recovery.
It is customary for Taiwanese airline leaders to resign after a crash, and the 10 board members of the quasi-governmental foundation that owns a controlling stake in China Airlines have stepped down. It was not certain how many, if any, would be asked to keep their jobs.
Those who resigned included China Airlines Chairman Y.L. Lee and President Philip Wei. Traditionally, the airline's chairman and president are board members of the foundation, called the China Aviation Development Foundation. If they are not rehired, they might also lose their top jobs at the airline.
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From ATW's news...no further source listed....
Recorders recovered from China Airlines crash
Dateline: Monday June 03, 2002
Searchers recovered the FDR and CVR of the China Airlines 747-200 that crashed on May 25.
Investigators said it will be several months before all the wreckage is recovered. So far, less than 1% has been found, the largest piece being the vertical stabilizer. Sea floor depth in the search area is 165-265 ft. A majority of the bodies recovered so far have broken bones and dislocated jaws but no evidence of burns. Most bodies are from the rear of the aircraft.
Recorders recovered from China Airlines crash
Dateline: Monday June 03, 2002
Searchers recovered the FDR and CVR of the China Airlines 747-200 that crashed on May 25.
Investigators said it will be several months before all the wreckage is recovered. So far, less than 1% has been found, the largest piece being the vertical stabilizer. Sea floor depth in the search area is 165-265 ft. A majority of the bodies recovered so far have broken bones and dislocated jaws but no evidence of burns. Most bodies are from the rear of the aircraft.
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Based on the radar data Taiwan's Aviation Safety Council (ASC)
originally said that CI 611 broke into four large pieces.
The ASC apparently has hinted that the original interpretation
of the radar, whether right or wrong, was hasty. According to the
Taipei Times of May 31:
"The council later said it needed to double-check radar data
to verify whether the aircraft had indeed disintegrated into four
pieces."
China has now made their radar data available. The excerpt below
refers to "the last eight seconds." That is exactly what was
reported (but it was filtered first through a television
journalist and then through a print journalist).
Officials from the Civil Aviation General Administration of China
will deliver the desired radar data at Beijing airport.
The television reported that Liu Yajun, a Chinese aviation official,
told reporters in Beijing the radar data contained the ill-fated
plane's altitude and the direction of the flight at the last moments.
"The reading from the radar screen indicated the plane flying up
twice and down once ... in the last eight seconds," Liu said.
Finally, there was another article in which Hsieh Ching-hui,
who, if I correctly understand the article, is the leader
of a government task force, raised some questions about the
condition of the a/c based on its sale price.
As to the matter of the aircraft's age, Hsieh said that the plane
had operated for over 22 years and that China Airlines intended
to sell the plane to a domestic airline firm in Thailand for
US$1.45 million, which is considered a relatively low price.
"Is such an old plane appropriate for use as a passenger jet? The
age of the plane and its low sales price seem to imply that the
plane was in bad condition," Hsieh wondered aloud.
Kaptin M: I have tried to fit the radar data to four trajectories.
I cannot do so without the presence of severe weather. But the
ASC has said that there wasn't any.
originally said that CI 611 broke into four large pieces.
The ASC apparently has hinted that the original interpretation
of the radar, whether right or wrong, was hasty. According to the
Taipei Times of May 31:
"The council later said it needed to double-check radar data
to verify whether the aircraft had indeed disintegrated into four
pieces."
China has now made their radar data available. The excerpt below
refers to "the last eight seconds." That is exactly what was
reported (but it was filtered first through a television
journalist and then through a print journalist).
Officials from the Civil Aviation General Administration of China
will deliver the desired radar data at Beijing airport.
The television reported that Liu Yajun, a Chinese aviation official,
told reporters in Beijing the radar data contained the ill-fated
plane's altitude and the direction of the flight at the last moments.
"The reading from the radar screen indicated the plane flying up
twice and down once ... in the last eight seconds," Liu said.
Finally, there was another article in which Hsieh Ching-hui,
who, if I correctly understand the article, is the leader
of a government task force, raised some questions about the
condition of the a/c based on its sale price.
As to the matter of the aircraft's age, Hsieh said that the plane
had operated for over 22 years and that China Airlines intended
to sell the plane to a domestic airline firm in Thailand for
US$1.45 million, which is considered a relatively low price.
"Is such an old plane appropriate for use as a passenger jet? The
age of the plane and its low sales price seem to imply that the
plane was in bad condition," Hsieh wondered aloud.
Kaptin M: I have tried to fit the radar data to four trajectories.
I cannot do so without the presence of severe weather. But the
ASC has said that there wasn't any.
China Airlines B747 Crash
I can't look again at the trace to confirm - the Taiwan server seems to be down - but I'm pretty sure the quoted figures were groundspeed, not airspeed....
Regards
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Re: China Airlines B747 Crash
Anyone with a source for these charts ? Seems they have vanished from the net...
From PB's original post:
Flight path and radar data:
http://www.asc.gov.tw/asc/_file/200...CI611-RADAR.pdf
Radio Transmissions:
http://www.asc.gov.tw/asc/_file/200...611-ATCtran.pdf
They are now available again, the speeds quoted are indeed groundspeeds.
R1
China Airlines B747 Crash
They are now available again, the speeds quoted are indeed groundspeeds.
Doesn't work for me... Can anyone confirm that those files are indeed at the mentioned URL ?
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Doesn't work for me... Can anyone confirm that those files are indeed at the mentioned URL ?
That site must be up and down more often than.... errr something that's up and down a hell of a lot! It was fine for me half an hour ago, now it's dead. Keep trying.... I've saved a copy of the radar data, if the site is totally fubared I'll post in in the pprune files area... errrr do we have a files area?
R1
If you feel so inclined could you forward me the file by e-mail:
[email protected]
Thanks & regards
--alex
[email protected]
Thanks & regards
--alex
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Another 747-200 of China Airlines is listed by Ansett as for sale (S/N 21843) - and also a 742 freighter. Would be interesting to know the hours/cycles of those, and whether they will be looked at as part of the investigation.
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Server won't take entire article in single post (too large) - sending in two posts
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
By Michael A. Dornheim/Aviation Week & Space Technology
03-Jun-2002 11:40 AM U.S. EDT
LOS ANGELES -- Investigators of last week's top-of-climb disintegration of a China Airlines Boeing 747-209B are engaged in a month-long effort to retrieve 80% of the wreckage.
Major pieces of the airplane and the black boxes were located last week in the Taiwan Strait but not immediately recovered because of strong currents and high seas. At least 92 bodies had been found in the water by late last week, and the 209 passengers and 16 crew are all presumed dead.
The unusual accident with no obvious cause raises anxiety in a region that's home to many 747s and has an accident rate that varies greatly among carriers. Memories of the TWA Flight 800 inflight fuel tank explosion in July 1996 linger, especially since the ignition source was not definitively found.
China Airlines Flight 611 took off from Taipei's Chiang Kai-Shek International Airport at 3:08 p.m. local time on May 25, heading southwest on a 1.6-hr. flight to Hong Kong. Twenty minutes later, the final radar transponder signal indicated 33,500 ft. altitude, then died at 3:28 p.m. The skin echo broke into four separate track groups on a military radar. There were no distress calls; the crew talked to air traffic control at 3:16 p.m. to confirm they were cleared to 35,000 ft., and that was the last message heard from them.
The recorders were found at 23 deg. 35 min. N. Lat., 119 deg. 24 min. E. Long., where the ocean is 40-80 meters (130-260 ft.) deep. Near that location searchers using sonar also found a large piece of wreckage about 130 X 30 ft. in size.
The Aviation Safety Council (ASC) of Taiwan is conducting the investigation. The U.S. NTSB sent a five-man team headed by Greg Phillips as the accredited representative, and the FAA sent three people. Boeing and Pratt & Whitney personnel are also at the search headquarters at the Makung region on the Penghu Islands several miles east of the accident area. Information is being posted on the ASC Web site at www.asc.gov.tw.
The air traffic controller following Flight 611 noticed the data line indicating actual altitude disappear at 3:28:03 p.m., and the entire signal disappeared on the next radar sweep, said Kay Yong, managing director of the ASC. The controller called Flight 611 repeatedly but was unable to raise them, and other controllers were not able to find the aircraft. The civil radar does not have the power to detect primary skin echoes, Yong said.
The Taiwanese military provided the ASC with primary radar data. They show the aircraft moving at about 430 kt. on a 226-deg. ground track, then breaking into four track groups. Curiously, one of these groups moves in the opposite direction of 50 deg. at a speed of several hundred knots, Yong said. It is not yet clear whether this is a radar anomaly or the actual motion of the objects. The military data are not individual skin echoes but fused tracks based upon several radars, and so far the military has been reluctant to discuss radar algorithms that could cause strange results, e.g., from the many echoes of a cloud of debris. The viewing geometry may also give some speed ambiguity on short-duration tracks.
"We can't assess the possibility of a midair collision right now," Yong said. "We need more radar data." Through the NTSB, the ASC has asked the U.S. Defense Dept. if it has any radar data covering the accident. It is asking the same of China, and would like helpful satellite pictures as well.
The sound beacons from the flight data and cockpit voice recorders were located on May 29, but ocean currents were too strong to retrieve them with divers or a remote-control submersible. The currents vary daily. A boat was keeping a round-the-clock vigil on the recorders in case the current moved them. Fishermen say there are small local ocean floor trenches in the area. The batteries for the sound beacons should last 20-30 days.
The wreckage found nearby is believed to be a piece of the fuselage. A boat used its anchor to scratch the metal and found green zinc chromate primer paint, indicating it is an aircraft part and not other debris. High currents prevented recovery late last week. Pieces already recovered include a trailing-edge flap and the leading edge of the vertical stabilizer.
"Personally, I think the wreckage is more important than black boxes," Yong said. He aims to retrieve 80% of the wreckage in 30 days and reconstruct it on the Penghu Islands, but as of late last week he estimated that less than 1% of the wreckage had been recovered. The ASC has engaged Massachusetts-based American Underwater Search and Survey Ltd. to help with recovery. The company worked on the TWA Flight 800 recovery. The search area on May 28 was 16,129 sq. km. (6,230 sq. mi.), according to Transportation and Communications Minister Lin-shan Lin. Fortunately, northwest ocean currents tend to push wreckage away from a 150-200-meter-deep oceanic trench.
The recovered bodies are mostly intact but with broken bones. There has been no sign of a fire in the bodies or the debris so far, Yong said. At 33,500 ft., Jet A fuel would be flammable from 135F down to 60F or lower, and it is plausible that the fuel would still be in this temperature range just 20 min. after takeoff (AW&ST July 7, 1997, p. 61). It is not known yet what type of fuel was in Flight 661.
Server won't take entire article in single post (too large) - sending in two posts
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
By Michael A. Dornheim/Aviation Week & Space Technology
03-Jun-2002 11:40 AM U.S. EDT
LOS ANGELES -- Investigators of last week's top-of-climb disintegration of a China Airlines Boeing 747-209B are engaged in a month-long effort to retrieve 80% of the wreckage.
Major pieces of the airplane and the black boxes were located last week in the Taiwan Strait but not immediately recovered because of strong currents and high seas. At least 92 bodies had been found in the water by late last week, and the 209 passengers and 16 crew are all presumed dead.
The unusual accident with no obvious cause raises anxiety in a region that's home to many 747s and has an accident rate that varies greatly among carriers. Memories of the TWA Flight 800 inflight fuel tank explosion in July 1996 linger, especially since the ignition source was not definitively found.
China Airlines Flight 611 took off from Taipei's Chiang Kai-Shek International Airport at 3:08 p.m. local time on May 25, heading southwest on a 1.6-hr. flight to Hong Kong. Twenty minutes later, the final radar transponder signal indicated 33,500 ft. altitude, then died at 3:28 p.m. The skin echo broke into four separate track groups on a military radar. There were no distress calls; the crew talked to air traffic control at 3:16 p.m. to confirm they were cleared to 35,000 ft., and that was the last message heard from them.
The recorders were found at 23 deg. 35 min. N. Lat., 119 deg. 24 min. E. Long., where the ocean is 40-80 meters (130-260 ft.) deep. Near that location searchers using sonar also found a large piece of wreckage about 130 X 30 ft. in size.
The Aviation Safety Council (ASC) of Taiwan is conducting the investigation. The U.S. NTSB sent a five-man team headed by Greg Phillips as the accredited representative, and the FAA sent three people. Boeing and Pratt & Whitney personnel are also at the search headquarters at the Makung region on the Penghu Islands several miles east of the accident area. Information is being posted on the ASC Web site at www.asc.gov.tw.
The air traffic controller following Flight 611 noticed the data line indicating actual altitude disappear at 3:28:03 p.m., and the entire signal disappeared on the next radar sweep, said Kay Yong, managing director of the ASC. The controller called Flight 611 repeatedly but was unable to raise them, and other controllers were not able to find the aircraft. The civil radar does not have the power to detect primary skin echoes, Yong said.
The Taiwanese military provided the ASC with primary radar data. They show the aircraft moving at about 430 kt. on a 226-deg. ground track, then breaking into four track groups. Curiously, one of these groups moves in the opposite direction of 50 deg. at a speed of several hundred knots, Yong said. It is not yet clear whether this is a radar anomaly or the actual motion of the objects. The military data are not individual skin echoes but fused tracks based upon several radars, and so far the military has been reluctant to discuss radar algorithms that could cause strange results, e.g., from the many echoes of a cloud of debris. The viewing geometry may also give some speed ambiguity on short-duration tracks.
"We can't assess the possibility of a midair collision right now," Yong said. "We need more radar data." Through the NTSB, the ASC has asked the U.S. Defense Dept. if it has any radar data covering the accident. It is asking the same of China, and would like helpful satellite pictures as well.
The sound beacons from the flight data and cockpit voice recorders were located on May 29, but ocean currents were too strong to retrieve them with divers or a remote-control submersible. The currents vary daily. A boat was keeping a round-the-clock vigil on the recorders in case the current moved them. Fishermen say there are small local ocean floor trenches in the area. The batteries for the sound beacons should last 20-30 days.
The wreckage found nearby is believed to be a piece of the fuselage. A boat used its anchor to scratch the metal and found green zinc chromate primer paint, indicating it is an aircraft part and not other debris. High currents prevented recovery late last week. Pieces already recovered include a trailing-edge flap and the leading edge of the vertical stabilizer.
"Personally, I think the wreckage is more important than black boxes," Yong said. He aims to retrieve 80% of the wreckage in 30 days and reconstruct it on the Penghu Islands, but as of late last week he estimated that less than 1% of the wreckage had been recovered. The ASC has engaged Massachusetts-based American Underwater Search and Survey Ltd. to help with recovery. The company worked on the TWA Flight 800 recovery. The search area on May 28 was 16,129 sq. km. (6,230 sq. mi.), according to Transportation and Communications Minister Lin-shan Lin. Fortunately, northwest ocean currents tend to push wreckage away from a 150-200-meter-deep oceanic trench.
The recovered bodies are mostly intact but with broken bones. There has been no sign of a fire in the bodies or the debris so far, Yong said. At 33,500 ft., Jet A fuel would be flammable from 135F down to 60F or lower, and it is plausible that the fuel would still be in this temperature range just 20 min. after takeoff (AW&ST July 7, 1997, p. 61). It is not known yet what type of fuel was in Flight 661.
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Part Two......
INVESTIGATORS HAVE RULED out weather and air traffic control as causal factors. The weather in the area was clear with winds at 35,000 ft. about 40 kt. and no turbulence or icing.
Government officials did not think it was an on-board bomb or a missile attack from China. "We haven't found any evidence suggesting the possibility of a missile launch," said Lai Huang, deputy director of Taiwan's National Security Bureau. He also ruled out a terrorist attack. Officials said Taiwan was not conducting any live ammunition drills that day. Nonetheless, the one radar track in reverse direction is puzzling--if it is a valid track. Police have brought explosive detection equipment to the crash site, and investigators are reviewing videotapes from the baggage and immigration counters, as well as records of luggage X-rays.
The aircraft, tail No. B18255 and Boeing serial No. 21843, was delivered to China Airlines in July 1979 and had accumulated about 64,800 hr. and 21,398 cycles. "It's not high cycle compared to other 747s--there are others above 30,000 cycles," a Boeing official said. The aircraft was previously registered as B1866 and was re-registered in the late 1990s. An A check was performed on May 3 and a B check on Apr. 4. It finished a major C check on Nov. 25, 2001, and the next C check would be due Nov. 25 this year. It was powered by Pratt & Whitney JT9D-7AW engines.
China Airlines had five 747-200s but the other four flew cargo; B18255 had been the only one carrying passengers for several years. The Transport and Communications Ministry ordered the four remaining aircraft grounded, affecting a dozen cargo flights per week.
The captain of the flight, Ching-Fong Yi, joined China Airlines on Mar. 1, 1991, and had a total of 10,148 flight hours, including air force service. The copilot was Yea Shyong Shieh, who joined China Airlines on Feb. 1, 1990, with 10,173 hr. The flight engineer was Sen Kuo Chao, who joined the company on Mar. 1, 1977, with 19,117 hr.
Flight 611 was to be the final passenger trip for the aircraft under China Airlines ownership. Orient Thai Airlines was negotiating to buy B18255 and had made a good-faith deposit, but the deal had not been completed. The private Thai carrier is based in Cambodia.
The crash is China Airlines' fourth major accident since 1994 and the 18th since 1960. On Mar. 26, 1994, an Airbus A300-600R crashed at the Nagoya Airport, killing all 264 people on board. On Feb. 16, 1998, an A300B4 on a flight from Bali plowed into a row of houses on approach into Chiang Kai-Shek International, killing all 202 passengers and crew. On Aug. 22, 1999, an MD-11 with 315 passengers flipped over on landing at the Hong Kong International Airport. Fortunately, only three passengers succumbed to their injuries.
The accident has affected the carrier's plans. A code-sharing agreement with Delta Air Lines was to be announced on May 31, but this has been delayed "so CAL can focus on more important things," such as dealing with the accident, a Delta official said. However, "the code-sharing will begin; it's just delayed," the official said.
On May 28, Taiwan's premier, Shyi-kun Yu, said the airline would be privatized within two years, but the China Aviation Development Foundation (CADF), which holds 71% of China Airlines stock, said now isn't the time to privatize because of the weak price. The majority of CADF's board members are appointed by the Transport and Communications Ministry, giving the government effective control. CADF Chairman Jaw-Yang Tsay was the transportation minister until he resigned in 1994 following the Nagoya crash.
Some Taiwanese legislators berated the carrier and criticized the appearance that the ministry both oversees airline safety and also in some manner owns the airline. "We will look at that relationship if necessary," Yong said.
A SEPARATE BRANCH of government unique to Taiwan called the Control Yuan is also taking a role. The Control Yuan is similar to an Inspector General's office, but with more power than in most countries. It has formed a task force to examine issues raised by the accident, such as airplane preflight inspection, whether the May 3 A check was adequate, pilot training, company management of personnel and government supervision.
Task force chief Ching-hui Hsieh said the 23-year-old airplane was being sold to Orient Thai for a low $1.45-million price. "Is such an old plane appropriate for use as a passenger jet?" he asked. "The age of the plane and its low sales price seem to imply that it was in bad condition."
Stephen Rehrmann, vice president of the Morten Beyer & Agnew aircraft valuation firm, said a Stage 3 747-200 of that vintage would be worth about $7.5 million if it were halfway to an airframe D check and engine overhaul, and terminating fixes to major service bulletins had been accomplished. But the noisy JT9D-7AW engines are not Stage 3-compliant, and if the aircraft was near major overhaul (which could cost $8 million) and expensive service bulletins had not been accomplished, the value could be near scrap.
The Control Yuan's power to reprimand frightens civil servants, and some fear their reaction may be to protect themselves rather than to cooperate to find the cause of the crash.
William Dennis contributed to this report from Kuala Lumpur.
INVESTIGATORS HAVE RULED out weather and air traffic control as causal factors. The weather in the area was clear with winds at 35,000 ft. about 40 kt. and no turbulence or icing.
Government officials did not think it was an on-board bomb or a missile attack from China. "We haven't found any evidence suggesting the possibility of a missile launch," said Lai Huang, deputy director of Taiwan's National Security Bureau. He also ruled out a terrorist attack. Officials said Taiwan was not conducting any live ammunition drills that day. Nonetheless, the one radar track in reverse direction is puzzling--if it is a valid track. Police have brought explosive detection equipment to the crash site, and investigators are reviewing videotapes from the baggage and immigration counters, as well as records of luggage X-rays.
The aircraft, tail No. B18255 and Boeing serial No. 21843, was delivered to China Airlines in July 1979 and had accumulated about 64,800 hr. and 21,398 cycles. "It's not high cycle compared to other 747s--there are others above 30,000 cycles," a Boeing official said. The aircraft was previously registered as B1866 and was re-registered in the late 1990s. An A check was performed on May 3 and a B check on Apr. 4. It finished a major C check on Nov. 25, 2001, and the next C check would be due Nov. 25 this year. It was powered by Pratt & Whitney JT9D-7AW engines.
China Airlines had five 747-200s but the other four flew cargo; B18255 had been the only one carrying passengers for several years. The Transport and Communications Ministry ordered the four remaining aircraft grounded, affecting a dozen cargo flights per week.
The captain of the flight, Ching-Fong Yi, joined China Airlines on Mar. 1, 1991, and had a total of 10,148 flight hours, including air force service. The copilot was Yea Shyong Shieh, who joined China Airlines on Feb. 1, 1990, with 10,173 hr. The flight engineer was Sen Kuo Chao, who joined the company on Mar. 1, 1977, with 19,117 hr.
Flight 611 was to be the final passenger trip for the aircraft under China Airlines ownership. Orient Thai Airlines was negotiating to buy B18255 and had made a good-faith deposit, but the deal had not been completed. The private Thai carrier is based in Cambodia.
The crash is China Airlines' fourth major accident since 1994 and the 18th since 1960. On Mar. 26, 1994, an Airbus A300-600R crashed at the Nagoya Airport, killing all 264 people on board. On Feb. 16, 1998, an A300B4 on a flight from Bali plowed into a row of houses on approach into Chiang Kai-Shek International, killing all 202 passengers and crew. On Aug. 22, 1999, an MD-11 with 315 passengers flipped over on landing at the Hong Kong International Airport. Fortunately, only three passengers succumbed to their injuries.
The accident has affected the carrier's plans. A code-sharing agreement with Delta Air Lines was to be announced on May 31, but this has been delayed "so CAL can focus on more important things," such as dealing with the accident, a Delta official said. However, "the code-sharing will begin; it's just delayed," the official said.
On May 28, Taiwan's premier, Shyi-kun Yu, said the airline would be privatized within two years, but the China Aviation Development Foundation (CADF), which holds 71% of China Airlines stock, said now isn't the time to privatize because of the weak price. The majority of CADF's board members are appointed by the Transport and Communications Ministry, giving the government effective control. CADF Chairman Jaw-Yang Tsay was the transportation minister until he resigned in 1994 following the Nagoya crash.
Some Taiwanese legislators berated the carrier and criticized the appearance that the ministry both oversees airline safety and also in some manner owns the airline. "We will look at that relationship if necessary," Yong said.
A SEPARATE BRANCH of government unique to Taiwan called the Control Yuan is also taking a role. The Control Yuan is similar to an Inspector General's office, but with more power than in most countries. It has formed a task force to examine issues raised by the accident, such as airplane preflight inspection, whether the May 3 A check was adequate, pilot training, company management of personnel and government supervision.
Task force chief Ching-hui Hsieh said the 23-year-old airplane was being sold to Orient Thai for a low $1.45-million price. "Is such an old plane appropriate for use as a passenger jet?" he asked. "The age of the plane and its low sales price seem to imply that it was in bad condition."
Stephen Rehrmann, vice president of the Morten Beyer & Agnew aircraft valuation firm, said a Stage 3 747-200 of that vintage would be worth about $7.5 million if it were halfway to an airframe D check and engine overhaul, and terminating fixes to major service bulletins had been accomplished. But the noisy JT9D-7AW engines are not Stage 3-compliant, and if the aircraft was near major overhaul (which could cost $8 million) and expensive service bulletins had not been accomplished, the value could be near scrap.
The Control Yuan's power to reprimand frightens civil servants, and some fear their reaction may be to protect themselves rather than to cooperate to find the cause of the crash.
William Dennis contributed to this report from Kuala Lumpur.
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Hope I'm not considered a thread hog ...but here is some interesting news from todays (6-4) Taipei Times.
China's data reveal details of CAL crash
DISASTER INVESTIGATION: Radar information provided by Chinese aviation experts shows that unusual changes in air speed may be responsible for the 747's break up
By Chang Yu-jung
STAFF REPORTER
Radar data provided by China to assist in the investigation of the crash of China Airlines' flight CI611 shows that the Boeing 747-200 experienced unusual changes in speed during its last 11 minutes before breaking up in mid-air and plunging into the Taiwan Strait, KMT Legislator Mu Min-chu (穆閩珠) said yesterday.
Mu, who received the optical disk containing the data from Chinese officials on Sunday, released at a press conference the views of the Chinese officials who viewed the data. The press conference was held just before she was to hand the disc to the Cabinet's Aviation Safety Council (ASC, *蒂w會).China's radar data
* Information provided by China shows the plane experienced unusual changes in speed prior to crashing.
* Chinese officials support the Aviation Safety Council's view that the plane broke into four pieces at an elevation of more than 9,100m.
Mu traveled to China on behalf of the private Cross Strait Trade Association (台灣海峽兩岸聯合經濟貿易協會) and returned to Taipei early yesterday.
Mu said that Chinese aviation experts told her that they had ascertained from the data that the fluctuations in air speed were "unusual and believed by the Chinese officials to be the key to the accident."
The data showed, she said, that in the 11 minutes before the aircraft disappeared from radar, it had continued to gain altitude but its speed had decreased from more than 800kph to 752kph. Its speed then increased again to more than 850kph.
"It is unusual for a plane that is climbing to slow down suddenly and then accelerate again," Mu said.
The Chinese officials concurred with the ASC's view that the plane broke up into four pieces at an elevation of more than 9,100m.
The ASC said that it would examine the data and integrate it with information from local aviation authorities for further analysis.
Asked whether the ASC agreed with the Chinese aviation experts, ASC investigator Tracy Jen (任靜怡) told the Taipei Times that while investigators appreciated China's help, "It is too early to draw any conclusions before we have the data analysis from the laboratory because we presume that the information provided is very general."
The ASC said that a preliminary description of the new information would be released within 48 hours.
Taiwanese naval vessels and fishing boats have been scouring the sea for bodies and wreckage since the CAL flight crashed 11 days ago.
Only 102 bodies have been recovered and the crucial "black boxes" -- the flight data recorder and the cockpit voice recorder -- have yet to be found. The jet crashed with 255 people aboard on May 25.
Taiwan's Straits Exchange Foundation (海基會) requested China's assistance on Friday, but China responded to the Cross Strait Trade Association, which was founded by KMT Legislator Ho Jyh-huei (何智輝) and is dominated by KMT legislators known to have good relations with China.
According to Jen, Taiwan has also asked the US to provide satellite data for the investigation and is awaiting a response.
A second tape showing submerged wreckage filmed by an undersea camera attached to a navy minesweeper was screened in Penghu yesterday for the benefit of relatives of the victims. An earlier video was shown Friday.
According to China Airlines, the tape showed some first-class seats and the front cargo cabin but a large part of the wreckage filmed was covered by sand.
China's data reveal details of CAL crash
DISASTER INVESTIGATION: Radar information provided by Chinese aviation experts shows that unusual changes in air speed may be responsible for the 747's break up
By Chang Yu-jung
STAFF REPORTER
Radar data provided by China to assist in the investigation of the crash of China Airlines' flight CI611 shows that the Boeing 747-200 experienced unusual changes in speed during its last 11 minutes before breaking up in mid-air and plunging into the Taiwan Strait, KMT Legislator Mu Min-chu (穆閩珠) said yesterday.
Mu, who received the optical disk containing the data from Chinese officials on Sunday, released at a press conference the views of the Chinese officials who viewed the data. The press conference was held just before she was to hand the disc to the Cabinet's Aviation Safety Council (ASC, *蒂w會).China's radar data
* Information provided by China shows the plane experienced unusual changes in speed prior to crashing.
* Chinese officials support the Aviation Safety Council's view that the plane broke into four pieces at an elevation of more than 9,100m.
Mu traveled to China on behalf of the private Cross Strait Trade Association (台灣海峽兩岸聯合經濟貿易協會) and returned to Taipei early yesterday.
Mu said that Chinese aviation experts told her that they had ascertained from the data that the fluctuations in air speed were "unusual and believed by the Chinese officials to be the key to the accident."
The data showed, she said, that in the 11 minutes before the aircraft disappeared from radar, it had continued to gain altitude but its speed had decreased from more than 800kph to 752kph. Its speed then increased again to more than 850kph.
"It is unusual for a plane that is climbing to slow down suddenly and then accelerate again," Mu said.
The Chinese officials concurred with the ASC's view that the plane broke up into four pieces at an elevation of more than 9,100m.
The ASC said that it would examine the data and integrate it with information from local aviation authorities for further analysis.
Asked whether the ASC agreed with the Chinese aviation experts, ASC investigator Tracy Jen (任靜怡) told the Taipei Times that while investigators appreciated China's help, "It is too early to draw any conclusions before we have the data analysis from the laboratory because we presume that the information provided is very general."
The ASC said that a preliminary description of the new information would be released within 48 hours.
Taiwanese naval vessels and fishing boats have been scouring the sea for bodies and wreckage since the CAL flight crashed 11 days ago.
Only 102 bodies have been recovered and the crucial "black boxes" -- the flight data recorder and the cockpit voice recorder -- have yet to be found. The jet crashed with 255 people aboard on May 25.
Taiwan's Straits Exchange Foundation (海基會) requested China's assistance on Friday, but China responded to the Cross Strait Trade Association, which was founded by KMT Legislator Ho Jyh-huei (何智輝) and is dominated by KMT legislators known to have good relations with China.
According to Jen, Taiwan has also asked the US to provide satellite data for the investigation and is awaiting a response.
A second tape showing submerged wreckage filmed by an undersea camera attached to a navy minesweeper was screened in Penghu yesterday for the benefit of relatives of the victims. An earlier video was shown Friday.
According to China Airlines, the tape showed some first-class seats and the front cargo cabin but a large part of the wreckage filmed was covered by sand.
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Decompression / Hypoxia?
<<ascertained from the data that the fluctuations in air speed were "unusual and believed by the Chinese officials to be the key to the accident."
The data showed, she said, that in the 11 minutes before the aircraft disappeared from radar, it had continued to gain altitude but its speed had decreased from more than 800kph to 752kph. Its speed then increased again to more than 850kph.
"It is unusual for a plane that is climbing to slow down suddenly and then accelerate again," Mu said.>>
Starting to look like an insidious (rather than explosive) decompression i.e. HYPOXIA (further explained and supported by the failure of the pilots to signify to ATC that anything at all was wrong- in that last 11 to 12 minutes during the large speed excursions).
And so that would make the rapidly subsequent loss of control/breakup due to no-one in the office being awake. (as described earlier on in my page 7 post on this thread). A cockpit invasion/ fight in the cockpit might explain the speed excursions (as might a large C of G change due to pax rushing or being herded from one end to the other) - but hypoxia brought on by switchology or hull rupture seems more likely.
<<Nonetheless, the one radar track in reverse direction is puzzling--if it is a valid track.>> (possibly an operating engine and a section of wing and still briefly under thrust - it would take off fairly quickly on its own, for a very brief period).
The data showed, she said, that in the 11 minutes before the aircraft disappeared from radar, it had continued to gain altitude but its speed had decreased from more than 800kph to 752kph. Its speed then increased again to more than 850kph.
"It is unusual for a plane that is climbing to slow down suddenly and then accelerate again," Mu said.>>
Starting to look like an insidious (rather than explosive) decompression i.e. HYPOXIA (further explained and supported by the failure of the pilots to signify to ATC that anything at all was wrong- in that last 11 to 12 minutes during the large speed excursions).
And so that would make the rapidly subsequent loss of control/breakup due to no-one in the office being awake. (as described earlier on in my page 7 post on this thread). A cockpit invasion/ fight in the cockpit might explain the speed excursions (as might a large C of G change due to pax rushing or being herded from one end to the other) - but hypoxia brought on by switchology or hull rupture seems more likely.
<<Nonetheless, the one radar track in reverse direction is puzzling--if it is a valid track.>> (possibly an operating engine and a section of wing and still briefly under thrust - it would take off fairly quickly on its own, for a very brief period).
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<<Nonetheless, the one radar track in reverse direction is puzzling--if
it is a valid track.>> (possibly an operating engine and a section of
wing and still briefly under thrust - it would take off fairly quickly
on its own, for a very brief period).
If it is a valid track then this piece initially ascended over
2000 ft and then, on the way down, nearly two minutes after
break-up, reversed its vertical direction, substantially increasing
groundspeed, and ascended at least around 400 feet. How do you account
for that under your theory?
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Door Seal, Outflow Valve?
bblank
The range and bearing accuracy of a military radar depends upon the type (PRF,PW,Scan Rate, band etc) - but the greatest factor would be the distance of the radar head from the scene of the incident and whether it was on all-round scan (at the time) and how long until/whether it was switched to sector across the area of interest (thereby increasing the paint-rate). With no skin paints from the civil ATC radar, it was suddenly a matter for the investigators of trying to marry up a myriad of radar plots (secondary giving way to a number of primary returns deduced from radar tapes from an unknown number of military sites). The inaccuracies that creep in are related to time-locking the radar sweeps (remember the Valujet debate over that). In addition of course, you have the loss of echo persistence when the primary target dissolves into a number of tumbling pieces. Some primary radars use Doppler or MTI circuits to guess ahead and can easily pick up another (different) piece of nearby wreckage that happens to be presenting a good cross-section at that instant. The resulting deduced track-plot of "debris" might be totally skewed by invalid data. And so the end result of any multi-radar correlated plot might be so much wishful thinking (or at best, the best guess, and possibly useless for any meaningful deductions).
The speed variation might be the best indication of what eventually happened. One explanation of the airspeed discrepancies 750-850kph may be that as they climbed, a door or hatch may have part-opened / lost its seal and started a vibration. Varying the speed within a reasonable band can give a crew the clue as to whether it's aerodynamic or not (or maybe engine-related). Let's say that they concluded that a door or hatch was part-open (seal blown or something lodged in the seal) and that seal finally gave way and caused alarming noise/vibration. If the engineer then went aft and maybe did something a bit adventurous or foolhardy?.... Or maybe it was just the noise-investigation varying-of-speed prelude to a door/cargo-door letting go (of its own accord) as they climbed higher. It may have been (post-maint) some thermal/acoustic blanket stuck in an outflow valve (that's happened in the not too far distant past). Probably a good idea NOT to climb higher in such a situation (i.e. keep the pressure differential down, descend at low IAS).
Inflight trouble-shooting rarely works out happily.....best done on air-tests without pax.
The range and bearing accuracy of a military radar depends upon the type (PRF,PW,Scan Rate, band etc) - but the greatest factor would be the distance of the radar head from the scene of the incident and whether it was on all-round scan (at the time) and how long until/whether it was switched to sector across the area of interest (thereby increasing the paint-rate). With no skin paints from the civil ATC radar, it was suddenly a matter for the investigators of trying to marry up a myriad of radar plots (secondary giving way to a number of primary returns deduced from radar tapes from an unknown number of military sites). The inaccuracies that creep in are related to time-locking the radar sweeps (remember the Valujet debate over that). In addition of course, you have the loss of echo persistence when the primary target dissolves into a number of tumbling pieces. Some primary radars use Doppler or MTI circuits to guess ahead and can easily pick up another (different) piece of nearby wreckage that happens to be presenting a good cross-section at that instant. The resulting deduced track-plot of "debris" might be totally skewed by invalid data. And so the end result of any multi-radar correlated plot might be so much wishful thinking (or at best, the best guess, and possibly useless for any meaningful deductions).
The speed variation might be the best indication of what eventually happened. One explanation of the airspeed discrepancies 750-850kph may be that as they climbed, a door or hatch may have part-opened / lost its seal and started a vibration. Varying the speed within a reasonable band can give a crew the clue as to whether it's aerodynamic or not (or maybe engine-related). Let's say that they concluded that a door or hatch was part-open (seal blown or something lodged in the seal) and that seal finally gave way and caused alarming noise/vibration. If the engineer then went aft and maybe did something a bit adventurous or foolhardy?.... Or maybe it was just the noise-investigation varying-of-speed prelude to a door/cargo-door letting go (of its own accord) as they climbed higher. It may have been (post-maint) some thermal/acoustic blanket stuck in an outflow valve (that's happened in the not too far distant past). Probably a good idea NOT to climb higher in such a situation (i.e. keep the pressure differential down, descend at low IAS).
Inflight trouble-shooting rarely works out happily.....best done on air-tests without pax.