Airtours captain sacked for flyby
Join Date: Oct 2000
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What about the fly-bys for gear checks? Seen some real frighteners at Heathrow! And how about all those commercial airliners that did fly-bys for the 50th anniversary? Were those crews not experienced enough?
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Could someone who knows give those of us who don't an idea as to what puts more stress on an airframe/is possibly more risky, a full power go around from low level or a low level pass. Having read the previous replies I'm presuming the crews are trained to do both as it has been pointed out that crews would do a low pass if there was a question as to whether the gear was down and locked.
If there's nothing in it was the sentance proportionate? I remember listening to my airband radio (yes sad I know) when the last Dan Air 727 departed LGW a few years ago and the controller broadcasting that it was a nice flypast that they did. I don't recall any objections to that.
If there's nothing in it was the sentance proportionate? I remember listening to my airband radio (yes sad I know) when the last Dan Air 727 departed LGW a few years ago and the controller broadcasting that it was a nice flypast that they did. I don't recall any objections to that.
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If the so called "Captains" (who SHOULD know how to follow standard company procedures) want to do a low level fly-past, they should be prepared to buy their OWN aeroplane and then do so at their local airfield. To do so with company equipment, without management approval AND proper training in these maneuvers...are grounds for DISMISSAL....period.
And...say goodby to the pension as well.
It should be REMEMBERED that Captains are there not only to command the aeroplane, but to set an example to the First Officers under their command.
Some guys will NEVER ever learn....
They need to be expunged from the airline profession...as in GONE.
And...say goodby to the pension as well.
It should be REMEMBERED that Captains are there not only to command the aeroplane, but to set an example to the First Officers under their command.
Some guys will NEVER ever learn....
They need to be expunged from the airline profession...as in GONE.
Last edited by 411A; 2nd May 2002 at 22:47.
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Oh yes... did anyone see the Concorde fly-past at Blackbushe a few years back? No air show, nothing... I can't remember the reason but it certainly wasn't "operational". I got the tip before leaving work... not believing it but curious I went to Blackers and a Concorde came hurtling past at a few hundred feet!!
Sorry if I appeared to criticise the mate who did the low fly-by - that wasn't my intention. I don't know the specific case and was generalising.
I admit to having done both the post-Granby flyby over Base Hangar and 2 or 3 authorised fly pasts at the Secret Oxfordshire Airbase's Officers' Mess, but then I'd had the advantage of extensive and expensive low-level military flying training. The ac were at low weight and the fatigue consumption was budgeted. Whereas some other to$$er (who now flies 125s at a business airport near Ruislip) was guilty of 3 seperate flypasts at max all up weight - and he'd been let off a CFS posting because he said that he went 'tilt' if exposed to angles of bank in excess of 61 deg. Those 3 unapproved 'displays' flown by that untrained and unchosen idiot cost at least 18 months of airframe fatigue life.....
I admit to having done both the post-Granby flyby over Base Hangar and 2 or 3 authorised fly pasts at the Secret Oxfordshire Airbase's Officers' Mess, but then I'd had the advantage of extensive and expensive low-level military flying training. The ac were at low weight and the fatigue consumption was budgeted. Whereas some other to$$er (who now flies 125s at a business airport near Ruislip) was guilty of 3 seperate flypasts at max all up weight - and he'd been let off a CFS posting because he said that he went 'tilt' if exposed to angles of bank in excess of 61 deg. Those 3 unapproved 'displays' flown by that untrained and unchosen idiot cost at least 18 months of airframe fatigue life.....
Only when flown at MTOW, 300KIAS and 500 ft in mid-day summer turbulence, followed by a harsh pull-up! Flown gently and smoothly at a lower weight, then no, they're not!
Nothing intrinsically dangerous or hazardous about a low fly-by if the pilot knows what he's doing. Sadly, many simply don't!
Nothing intrinsically dangerous or hazardous about a low fly-by if the pilot knows what he's doing. Sadly, many simply don't!
It is a truism that there is a HUGE difference between a fully authorised and BRIEFED low level pass and the ad hoc manoeuvres which have always, and will always, be part of the aviation scene. Those who carry out the latter are, at best, lax in their approach to their profession and, at worst, criminally negligent.
Yes, it is exciting to watch and, from experience, an adrenaline rush producer. However, having also had to recover the personal effects of my dead predecessor from the aircraft wreckage, one's opinion as to the wisdom, or otherwise, becomes modified.
The particular incident was the product of one of BEagle's 'well trained military pilots' operating in what was, for him, the natural low-level environment. He got it badly wrong and killed himself - no big problem - but he took my mate with him - not forgiveable. Our boss at the time made the definitive summing-up....."you knew what this person was doing (the particular manoeuvre was one of his regular 'party-pieces') BUT NONE OF YOU DID ANYTHING"
As they say oop North - "think on't"
Yes, it is exciting to watch and, from experience, an adrenaline rush producer. However, having also had to recover the personal effects of my dead predecessor from the aircraft wreckage, one's opinion as to the wisdom, or otherwise, becomes modified.
The particular incident was the product of one of BEagle's 'well trained military pilots' operating in what was, for him, the natural low-level environment. He got it badly wrong and killed himself - no big problem - but he took my mate with him - not forgiveable. Our boss at the time made the definitive summing-up....."you knew what this person was doing (the particular manoeuvre was one of his regular 'party-pieces') BUT NONE OF YOU DID ANYTHING"
As they say oop North - "think on't"
Join Date: May 2002
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I have to agree with BEagle, CornishJack and co.
An unauthorised, unbriefed, unpractised flyby done just for the hell of it is just about the most stupid, unprofessional, dangerous thing you could do.
For those who say that sacking was over the top - matter of opinion. I disagree with you.
Stick to the rule book, stick to what you've been taught, keep your head down and you won't go far wrong. Indulge yourself in high jinks and you have only yourself to blame for the consequences.
An unauthorised, unbriefed, unpractised flyby done just for the hell of it is just about the most stupid, unprofessional, dangerous thing you could do.
For those who say that sacking was over the top - matter of opinion. I disagree with you.
Stick to the rule book, stick to what you've been taught, keep your head down and you won't go far wrong. Indulge yourself in high jinks and you have only yourself to blame for the consequences.
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I am reliably informed that the said Captain, who I happen to vauguely know suggested to the "Manager" that he might do a low fly by. The "Manager" thought it was a "good idea" and off the good Captain went. I am told that he planned to level off at 100' but actually levelled off at 51' after the dreaded inertia had a bite. The "manager" apparently got the wind up and decided he should report the Captain. The result thereafter was inevitable. Justly I believe.
Further scuttlebut of this very strange operation is that SOME rated Captains are being required to be base checked in the RHS of their respective types. But here is the strange bit. They are then not allowed to undertake the duties of FO, and cannot therefore fly from the RHS. It appears that while a rated Captain can normally operate from the LHS he must act as PNF every time he is scheduled for a trip in the RHS. Ostensibly because he MIGHT be future training material!! Ummmm!
I am truly perplexed by this so if there is a plausible answer to this curious use of Captains in this company I would love to know.
Further scuttlebut of this very strange operation is that SOME rated Captains are being required to be base checked in the RHS of their respective types. But here is the strange bit. They are then not allowed to undertake the duties of FO, and cannot therefore fly from the RHS. It appears that while a rated Captain can normally operate from the LHS he must act as PNF every time he is scheduled for a trip in the RHS. Ostensibly because he MIGHT be future training material!! Ummmm!
I am truly perplexed by this so if there is a plausible answer to this curious use of Captains in this company I would love to know.
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As Airtours has changed it's name to MyTravel, perhaps they should now be referred to as the Travellers rather than the Tourists - I will let my coarser colleagues run with that one!
The RHS thing I believe is to cover the actual, but not admitted, pilot shortage at MYT and increase the standby availability. The CRM implications of flying a Capt in the RHS who can't touch anything need looking at, I wouldn't particularly want to do it.
The RHS thing I believe is to cover the actual, but not admitted, pilot shortage at MYT and increase the standby availability. The CRM implications of flying a Capt in the RHS who can't touch anything need looking at, I wouldn't particularly want to do it.
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If he is base-checked in the RHS, then he should have covered incapacitation of the other guy, so he is qualified to fly it! Sounds to me like someone's got their knickers in a bit of a twist on this one - unless there's significant factors we haven't been told?
Off topic, but re. the RH seat check, at bmi all captains are right seat checked so that we can operate in the RH seat should it be required. We do a take-off, eng fail, SE go-around and SE landing from the RH seat during every sim. check. The CAA say that we can be PF from that seat but the company policy is for us only to be PNF unless you are a training captain. If two skippers fly together we just swap seats for the next sector. Does not happen very often but can be usefull from time to time.
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Sorry for sticking with the off-topic bit, but can anyone senior within bmi or the Tourists comment on the reason for this?
If you have a guy checked out and qualified to sit in the right-hand seat, why not let him be as practised in flying from that side as possible?
As has been pointed out, what is he going to do in case of incapacitation of the guy in the left seat? Ask him to get out so you can change seats because you want to fly from there, not being practised in flying from the seat you're in?
I'm very far from being convinced that this is a wise practice. I'd be interested in any knowledgable and informed answer.
If you have a guy checked out and qualified to sit in the right-hand seat, why not let him be as practised in flying from that side as possible?
As has been pointed out, what is he going to do in case of incapacitation of the guy in the left seat? Ask him to get out so you can change seats because you want to fly from there, not being practised in flying from the seat you're in?
I'm very far from being convinced that this is a wise practice. I'd be interested in any knowledgable and informed answer.