'Hero' passenger helps land plane
Accepting the usual newspaper hyperbole and the airline attempting to put the best spin on things (neither of which is exactly surprising) I am amazed by the downbeat tone of the majority of responders. The captain seems to have used common sense.
Most of us carry identification and the idea of Walter Mitty types drunkenly loitering with intent outside the cockpit door on the off chance someone is going to go sick is just ridiculous. He may not be a hero, but he certainly seems to have been helpful. I think a first class upgrade on his next LH flight would certainly be in order.
Most of us carry identification and the idea of Walter Mitty types drunkenly loitering with intent outside the cockpit door on the off chance someone is going to go sick is just ridiculous. He may not be a hero, but he certainly seems to have been helpful. I think a first class upgrade on his next LH flight would certainly be in order.
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As JW said had he been drinking? Qualified on the 744? Licence and documentation with him? Familiar with company SOPs? Are you aware of the individuals training history?
Could he be a Walter Mitty?
Way too many variables to make it a no-brainer I'd think.
Personally, unless the situation was incredibly dire, I'd go with company rated, sober and current given the choice.
Could he be a Walter Mitty?
Way too many variables to make it a no-brainer I'd think.
Personally, unless the situation was incredibly dire, I'd go with company rated, sober and current given the choice.
It will be via the CC you are made aware of their existence, so they will be the first assessment as to sober(ish) and character. I doubt I'd need to see their licence, and not interested if familiar with company SOPs - we're hardly following them single pilot as it is.
You will have to brief and discuss the role of the pax with them.
Google gives:
# - CHECK IF A TYPE QUALIFIED COMPANY PILOT IS ON BOARD TO REPLACE THE INCAPACITATED MEMBER.
and the presence of any type rated company pilots on board ascertained.
...consider using help from other pilots or crewmembers aboard the airplane
The problem is that this passenger could be a clever, lying piece of s...t, trained on MS Flight Simulator, looking for an adrenalin kick, 15 minutes of fame and a story to lighten up his miserable life.
In best case.
He could also have been suicidal poor bastard, with revoked license longing to end his life in an epic pilotīs way, or why not high as a kite from sniffing cocaine as dessert, and eager as hell to show how to master a 744.
Or whatever else you can come up with.
In best case.
He could also have been suicidal poor bastard, with revoked license longing to end his life in an epic pilotīs way, or why not high as a kite from sniffing cocaine as dessert, and eager as hell to show how to master a 744.
Or whatever else you can come up with.
Let us look it from the cbin side. You are a qualified pilot (like in this case it seems to be) and are sitting in the cabin and being made aware of a problem in the pointy end. You offer your help and the remaining SOP slave rejects it. How would you feel, and how would other passengers, who sure get some information as well would feel for the remainder of the flight?
Even if he is not qualified on type he but a rated pilot on another type he will read a checklist better than a not trained cabin crew member, will be able to monitor communication or even be able to take over communication.
Are we that far degenerated, that a captains decision is not respected and questioned to death?
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Why would he? Mohamed Atta didn't win over here like he did in the US or the UK.
Very sensible use of available resources apparently.
Very sensible use of available resources apparently.
Last edited by Denti; 20th Nov 2012 at 15:17.
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Ha, all the spotters and enthusiasts and aerosexuals who comprise 90% of the forum these days must be absolutely wetting themselves with excitement reading this, they all dream about exactly this scenario.
Personally speaking, unless the guy was rated and experienced and could verify such by producing a licence or company ID, I'd far rather single crew it, or get a cabin crew up to read the checklists, it's hard enough flying with a type rated min hours cadet, let alone a want-to-be-helpful pax. There's just way too many risks and unknowns with letting someone in the flight deck who might or might not be what they claim. Would be way much stress watching them like a hawk to make sure they didn't push any buttons they weren't supposed to. Far easier to follow the SOP, call the mayday and do the single crew divert
Personally speaking, unless the guy was rated and experienced and could verify such by producing a licence or company ID, I'd far rather single crew it, or get a cabin crew up to read the checklists, it's hard enough flying with a type rated min hours cadet, let alone a want-to-be-helpful pax. There's just way too many risks and unknowns with letting someone in the flight deck who might or might not be what they claim. Would be way much stress watching them like a hawk to make sure they didn't push any buttons they weren't supposed to. Far easier to follow the SOP, call the mayday and do the single crew divert
I
Not a problem, it's only a seven hour flight. We used to operate Munich - Los Angeles (B767) with a 2 pilot crew using Austrian flight time limitations.
am surprised they are flying Newark to Frankfurt with a 2 pilot crew...what is the time limit for that in Germany?
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None of the aerosexuals or spotters or enthusiasts would be asked to join the Captain. Nor indeed would any non airline pilots.
I find the negative comments surprising. Apparently some of you who claim to be airline pilots cannot give the Captain the benefit of the doubt and trust his judgement. At the very least the passenger would have had company ID and it's entirely possible he was carrying his licence. All of which could be forwarded to the flight deck by the CC without any security risk. Plus a two minute chat would have established whether he was the real thing or not. If you were truly paranoid a call to company to establish his bona fides would be relatively straightforward.
Is is safer to sweat it out single pilot into an unfamiliar airport while a fully qualified type rated pilot sat in the back wondering at your paranoia?
I find the negative comments surprising. Apparently some of you who claim to be airline pilots cannot give the Captain the benefit of the doubt and trust his judgement. At the very least the passenger would have had company ID and it's entirely possible he was carrying his licence. All of which could be forwarded to the flight deck by the CC without any security risk. Plus a two minute chat would have established whether he was the real thing or not. If you were truly paranoid a call to company to establish his bona fides would be relatively straightforward.
Is is safer to sweat it out single pilot into an unfamiliar airport while a fully qualified type rated pilot sat in the back wondering at your paranoia?
Last edited by bluecode; 20th Nov 2012 at 15:45.
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At least the Irish Times makes it sound a little less like a Michael Bay Film....
Off-duty pilot assists in Dublin landing
Lurking...
Off-duty pilot assists in Dublin landing
Lurking...
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The detail is sketchy but I'm fairly sure the helpful passenger was more than simply a Flight Simmer or spotter and was well able to identify himself as such. Clearly the Captain felt his presence was welcome or he'd not have asked him to go up there. Any rated pilot would be able to handle the RT, find the charts, run the checklist, keep a look outside and act as a spare pair of eyes.
We don't know who this guy was. He could have been anything from a Cessna FI to a Space Shuttle commander but the Captain felt his contribution was valuable so let's give him the benefit of the doubt, no?
We don't know who this guy was. He could have been anything from a Cessna FI to a Space Shuttle commander but the Captain felt his contribution was valuable so let's give him the benefit of the doubt, no?
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As a previous poster mentioned, this man was a real hero, in assisting the pilot of a crippled aircraft
Dennis E. Fitch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Dennis E. Fitch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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For all the critics and nay-sayers.
Sioux City!
AirDisaster.Com: Special Report: United Airlines Flight 232
It turned out that one of the passengers on board flight 232 was Dennis Fitch, a United training and check pilot with over 3,000 hours on the DC-10. Haynes asked Fitch to go back and look out the windows to check for any structural damage. When Fitch returned to the flight deck, he informed Haynes that the both of the inboard ailerons were sticking up, but none of the controls appeared to be damaged or moving.
Haynes asked Fitch to take control of the throttle levers to allow the crew time to sort out the other decisions they were facing. Fitch knelt down in front of the controls and began to work with the throttles to maintain control of the aircraft. During this time, the aircraft had completed two slow right turns while descending. Calling Sioux City approach, Haynes requested the ILS (Instrument Landing System) frequency for runway 31 (9,000ft).
Haynes asked Fitch to take control of the throttle levers to allow the crew time to sort out the other decisions they were facing. Fitch knelt down in front of the controls and began to work with the throttles to maintain control of the aircraft. During this time, the aircraft had completed two slow right turns while descending. Calling Sioux City approach, Haynes requested the ILS (Instrument Landing System) frequency for runway 31 (9,000ft).
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And they still give us the worse seats on board
I travel as passenger too much, with many airlines these days sending crew in economy. very very few companies upgrading colleagues from other airlines and even worse not even giving extra legroom seats.
Will Lufthansa be the first major airline to change course, Give upgrade to qualified crew...... I don't hold my breath
Will Lufthansa be the first major airline to change course, Give upgrade to qualified crew...... I don't hold my breath
Claybird is correct from what I remember. A flight attendant did come up to the jumpseat upon an event/incapacitation involving one of the pilots. Lots of good reasons for this--for one, this "extra" can communicate with the cabin as to expected landing time, intentions after landing etc. whilst the captain (or remaining pilot) works on flying and landing.
Sure one can operate single pilot but good resource management is just that--resource management. Use the assets at hand to ensure a safe completion of the flight segment. I have no doubt that our LH colleagues handled this in textbook fashion and made it a non-event--a Bravo Zulu to them.
I do think Dan Dare does bring out of good point however. Did this relief pilot have his hi-viz vest and ear defenders? What if he had slipped through security with a tube of lip balm or eye drops in his pocket...
Sure one can operate single pilot but good resource management is just that--resource management. Use the assets at hand to ensure a safe completion of the flight segment. I have no doubt that our LH colleagues handled this in textbook fashion and made it a non-event--a Bravo Zulu to them.
I do think Dan Dare does bring out of good point however. Did this relief pilot have his hi-viz vest and ear defenders? What if he had slipped through security with a tube of lip balm or eye drops in his pocket...
Last edited by Uncle Fred; 20th Nov 2012 at 18:05.
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Some of the comments on this business simply beggar belief!
Imagining any security hazard from allowing access to the flight deck under such circumstances indicates not just a shortfall in but a complete absence of understanding of both the nature and appreciation of the risks involved in non crew access to the light deck.
Suggesting its better to get CC to read a checklist is better/safer/more desirable than having a pilot - even a PPL - in the second seat is hard to comprehend - how could it possibly be better to have a non pilot there than a pilot, even if he is not qualified on type? I cannot think of a single reason.
Suggesting that said pilot needs to be qualified and current on type again beggars belief. Why? You'd turn away a type rated man because he was not current? Holy sheet! You'd turn away a Dash 7 FO if that was all you had to pick from? I can't understand that. Especially if you put a cabin crew in the seat instead - that would be crazy!
Even a PPL understands the use, importance and protocols of checklist use, cabin crew don't. I know this is an old chestnut but surely getting someone with no knowledge to participate in a checklist is more hazardous than using someone who has some knowledge? Personally I think it's far - vastly - more likely to end in confusion if you use CC than if you do it on your own if there's no one else to help. But give me a PPL over that - at least he knows about lookout, can listen to RT, read an altimeter, identify a runway etc.
Oh - and why "only" 2 pilots Newark to Frankfurt? I take it some of the opinions here aren't from pilots - can't think why they are posting here in that case. Buddy, ever heard of Ryanair, Easyjet etc? They fly 5 days per week with duties 30% longer than that - with 2 pilots. As do scores of other airlines.
Haven't some people just let rampant paranoia and out-of-context "security" dogma take over their judgment? Scary.
Isn't all this just the most basic airmanship?
Oops! Bugger! I said it again. I'll get my coat...
Imagining any security hazard from allowing access to the flight deck under such circumstances indicates not just a shortfall in but a complete absence of understanding of both the nature and appreciation of the risks involved in non crew access to the light deck.
Suggesting its better to get CC to read a checklist is better/safer/more desirable than having a pilot - even a PPL - in the second seat is hard to comprehend - how could it possibly be better to have a non pilot there than a pilot, even if he is not qualified on type? I cannot think of a single reason.
Suggesting that said pilot needs to be qualified and current on type again beggars belief. Why? You'd turn away a type rated man because he was not current? Holy sheet! You'd turn away a Dash 7 FO if that was all you had to pick from? I can't understand that. Especially if you put a cabin crew in the seat instead - that would be crazy!
Even a PPL understands the use, importance and protocols of checklist use, cabin crew don't. I know this is an old chestnut but surely getting someone with no knowledge to participate in a checklist is more hazardous than using someone who has some knowledge? Personally I think it's far - vastly - more likely to end in confusion if you use CC than if you do it on your own if there's no one else to help. But give me a PPL over that - at least he knows about lookout, can listen to RT, read an altimeter, identify a runway etc.
Oh - and why "only" 2 pilots Newark to Frankfurt? I take it some of the opinions here aren't from pilots - can't think why they are posting here in that case. Buddy, ever heard of Ryanair, Easyjet etc? They fly 5 days per week with duties 30% longer than that - with 2 pilots. As do scores of other airlines.
Haven't some people just let rampant paranoia and out-of-context "security" dogma take over their judgment? Scary.
Isn't all this just the most basic airmanship?
Oops! Bugger! I said it again. I'll get my coat...