A321 Range Question - MON5329/21SEP
Thread Starter
A321 Range Question - MON5329/21SEP
Folks,
My wife and daughter, returning from Hurghada to Manchester, were delayed by sixteen hours yesterday.
The aircraft had to tech stop in Venice, supposedly because of "shortage of fuel due to weather conditions". Once on the ground, it went tech., there was no engineer, the crew eventually went out of hours, and the passenger ground handing was utterly, utterly shambolic. Not a good week for Monarch...
My query is over the 321's range - surely this sector is well within it's capabilities? It's hardly a DC6 going west across the pond in 1953... Is there some issue with fuel at Hurghada that requires tankering? This is all a bit puzzling.
r
My wife and daughter, returning from Hurghada to Manchester, were delayed by sixteen hours yesterday.
The aircraft had to tech stop in Venice, supposedly because of "shortage of fuel due to weather conditions". Once on the ground, it went tech., there was no engineer, the crew eventually went out of hours, and the passenger ground handing was utterly, utterly shambolic. Not a good week for Monarch...
My query is over the 321's range - surely this sector is well within it's capabilities? It's hardly a DC6 going west across the pond in 1953... Is there some issue with fuel at Hurghada that requires tankering? This is all a bit puzzling.
r
HRG-MAN is 2240nm. Before the sanctions bmi used to operate a 321 daily from Tehran to London (2393nm) which was not immune from tech-stopping, especially in winter. However, bmi's A321s had an additional extra fuel tank giving a total capacity of around 21 tonnes (or 21.5 on some of the fleet on a good day). The standard A321 which is what I suspect Monarch operate has a capacity of 18.6 tonnes, which is a difference of about one hour's flying time.
Last edited by Doug E Style; 23rd Sep 2012 at 09:23.
Thread Starter
Thanks, all.
I didn't realise that the 321's range would be marginal, thinking that it's comparable to the 757.
It just seemed mightily odd that it tech. stopped, then went AOG. Maybe the fuellers snapped the key off in the filler cap... :-)
As for the passenger side..... jeepers! It would make the combined efforts of Mr Bean, Homer Simpson, and The Chuckle Brothers look like a special forces operation.
Agreed, you can't always be ready for diverts at 0300L, but the lack of communication, joined-up thinking, and general confusion was astonishing. I've worked on the ground, and had to deal with delays, sudden diverts, etc, so would like to think I've some background on all this, but my wife's experience would make a great case study of "how not to do it".
I didn't realise that the 321's range would be marginal, thinking that it's comparable to the 757.
It just seemed mightily odd that it tech. stopped, then went AOG. Maybe the fuellers snapped the key off in the filler cap... :-)
As for the passenger side..... jeepers! It would make the combined efforts of Mr Bean, Homer Simpson, and The Chuckle Brothers look like a special forces operation.
Agreed, you can't always be ready for diverts at 0300L, but the lack of communication, joined-up thinking, and general confusion was astonishing. I've worked on the ground, and had to deal with delays, sudden diverts, etc, so would like to think I've some background on all this, but my wife's experience would make a great case study of "how not to do it".
Handling can be pretty chaotic in Italy even when they are expecting you. It could have been worse, they could have diverted to Naples. In which case you'd still be on the aircraft now.
Fuel stop (especially on a duty day like UK-Egypt), followed by a tech snag is just unfortunate. One spanner in the works, and everyone's best intentioned plan collapses like a house of cards!
Fuel stop (especially on a duty day like UK-Egypt), followed by a tech snag is just unfortunate. One spanner in the works, and everyone's best intentioned plan collapses like a house of cards!
Thread Starter
Thanks,
As I said above, I have some understanding of life on the ground, as I had a baptism of fire at the age of 23 at Teesside, having to re-route 70-plus fog delayed interlining passengers on my own many, many times. I can understand how things can go seriously "mammaries-vertical" for bizarre combinations of circumstances, not always fully understood by the punters.
However, someone from Monarch needs to have a little chat with their handling agent, and impress upon them the need for the "C-word". Communication.
A very nicely written letter was handed to the pax apologising for the delay, and explaining what was to be provided for them just as they were about to board., that, is, around ten hours too late.
On board, there was a PA from the front end to explain that the crew had been highly frustrated themselves, expecting boarding for around three hours, but the ground hadn't managed to get this arranged.
r
As I said above, I have some understanding of life on the ground, as I had a baptism of fire at the age of 23 at Teesside, having to re-route 70-plus fog delayed interlining passengers on my own many, many times. I can understand how things can go seriously "mammaries-vertical" for bizarre combinations of circumstances, not always fully understood by the punters.
However, someone from Monarch needs to have a little chat with their handling agent, and impress upon them the need for the "C-word". Communication.
A very nicely written letter was handed to the pax apologising for the delay, and explaining what was to be provided for them just as they were about to board., that, is, around ten hours too late.
On board, there was a PA from the front end to explain that the crew had been highly frustrated themselves, expecting boarding for around three hours, but the ground hadn't managed to get this arranged.
r
Last edited by Midland 331; 23rd Sep 2012 at 19:47.
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To put it into perspective, First Choice used to have two 321's at BRS that were eventually replaced with two 75's due to performance issues out of the short BRS r/way.
A 321 in full economy config can be a bit of a headache...!!
A 321 in full economy config can be a bit of a headache...!!
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A321 vs B757
A321 18-21 tonnes fuel capacity...?
IIRC AIR2000/FCA A321 pax capacity was 220 pax, all 'Y' or Economy Class. Just out of interest what's the config BMI/BA use?
B757 34.2 tonnes fuel capacity.
233 'Y' class pax MAN - BGR (Bangor, Maine) easily enough, MCO (Orlando - McCoy) to MAN Non-stop (if you had an ave. 35kt tailwind component).
Or with 208 Pax CPH-BKK or UTP & return with a tech. stop in BAH on the way out & back.
With 170 seat 2-class config. it can do UK/Western Europe to Eastern USA non-stop.
A321 & B757 similar in size, vastly different in capabilities.
IIRC AIR2000/FCA A321 pax capacity was 220 pax, all 'Y' or Economy Class. Just out of interest what's the config BMI/BA use?
B757 34.2 tonnes fuel capacity.
233 'Y' class pax MAN - BGR (Bangor, Maine) easily enough, MCO (Orlando - McCoy) to MAN Non-stop (if you had an ave. 35kt tailwind component).
Or with 208 Pax CPH-BKK or UTP & return with a tech. stop in BAH on the way out & back.
With 170 seat 2-class config. it can do UK/Western Europe to Eastern USA non-stop.
A321 & B757 similar in size, vastly different in capabilities.
I guess Open Skies have had no problems operating ORY - IAD/JFK. But they don't stuff 228 passengers in their 757's. Having said that Caledonian used to have problems tech stopping on the way to Florida. BA when they operated BHX-JFK didn't. But I guess it was down to the payload.
Last edited by crewmeal; 25th Sep 2012 at 05:46.
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Whats so strange about a aircraft developing problems during a refuel stop??? a million and one things can occur, from a fueling truck hitting the aircraft to a no dispatch ecam warning, if no engineering cover is available your in trouble.
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The A321s operating HRG & SSH routes have an ACT (Additional Centre Tank) fitted. On this flight north-bound, there was a problem with the ACT so its fuel could not be used. Due to the headwinds, aircraft had to tech stop VCE for fuel. However, special tooling was required to isolate the ACT, which had to be flown out with an Engineer from UK. 
Last edited by JetMender; 25th Sep 2012 at 21:16.
Thread Starter
JetMender,
Many thanks for your reply, which is most enlightening. I mess around with electro-mechanical stuff in my day job, and gain further training in patience and perseverance by messing around with old cars in my leisure hours, so have some kind of grasp of these kind of problems.
It's a shame that the engineer couldn't sort out the shambolic passenger handling...
r
Many thanks for your reply, which is most enlightening. I mess around with electro-mechanical stuff in my day job, and gain further training in patience and perseverance by messing around with old cars in my leisure hours, so have some kind of grasp of these kind of problems.
It's a shame that the engineer couldn't sort out the shambolic passenger handling...
r
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Perhaps if ground handling staff were paid half what engineers are paid they may be some improvement, ground staff are generally poorly paid and under resourced, unlike engineers who it seems to me are very well paid
Thread Starter
I can't quite see the connection between pay and basic competency. McDonalds staff generally perform well.
At BMA in 1982 we were some of the lowest paid people in the industry, but still did a good job.
r
At BMA in 1982 we were some of the lowest paid people in the industry, but still did a good job.
r
Ground handling agents
Agree with 750XL, I tried it "between careers" for a year or two. Great laugh, but nearly cried when I got my first monthly pay... £1100 after tax. OT and extra shifts netted me £1400 at best. Could have worked on to Ops Controller or above but my bank didn't have time for that.....
Sorry for the thread drift.
Sorry for the thread drift.
Last edited by OntimeexceptACARS; 26th Sep 2012 at 22:01. Reason: Apology for thread drift
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Sad fact is the only people paid as professionals in the industry are pilots, licensed engineers and ATC, the rest of the pros are generally paid a pittance and often earn less as said that someone flipping burgers
Perhaps the fact that to operate as a pilot, engineer or ATC you have hold CAA licence, its time maybe that applied to other key groups who also play a vital role but receive nothing like the status or the financial rewards enjoyed by the above
Perhaps the fact that to operate as a pilot, engineer or ATC you have hold CAA licence, its time maybe that applied to other key groups who also play a vital role but receive nothing like the status or the financial rewards enjoyed by the above
Last edited by spottilludrop; 27th Sep 2012 at 12:09.
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Sad fact is the only people paid as professionals in the industry are pilots, licensed engineers and ATC, the rest of the pros are generally paid a pittance and often earn less as said that someone flipping burgers
I wouldn't dream of speaking to anyone the way I've been spoken to by pilots in the past 
They can be far worse than passengers because they want it and they want it now 
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Its not only pilots ,a lot of engineers appear to think the world revolves about what they do, fair enough they have a responsible job as do pilots but so do ops dispatch ground handlers who contribute equally to that on time departure