Female Pilots
Guest
Posts: n/a
Article in "Todays Pilot" refers to a report published by John Hopkins University - male and female pilots crash for different reasons.
Civil and military accidents between 1983 and 1997 involving 144 female and 287 male pilots showed that "Males tend to trade accuracy for speed... they would rather do something faster even if they don't do it accurately. Women tend to be more cautious and pay greater attention to the rules". According to the report, crashes involving female pilots are mostly due to mishandling of the aircraft while male pilots are more likely to crash because of flawed decision making.
------------------
"If you keep doing what you've always done, you will keep getting what you've always got"
Civil and military accidents between 1983 and 1997 involving 144 female and 287 male pilots showed that "Males tend to trade accuracy for speed... they would rather do something faster even if they don't do it accurately. Women tend to be more cautious and pay greater attention to the rules". According to the report, crashes involving female pilots are mostly due to mishandling of the aircraft while male pilots are more likely to crash because of flawed decision making.
------------------
"If you keep doing what you've always done, you will keep getting what you've always got"
Guest
Posts: n/a
I don't believe some of the postings on this thread.
Let's get some clarity....
All of us, male or female come with our own cocktail of "human factors" that give us an individual profile.
Hopefully the training, certification and ongoing check system ensures that the unique package we each bring falls within the boundaries of safe aviating.
As the social scientist Jaspars once concluded, the more experimentation with groups of people, the less certain the outcome, so basically you can take the stats and make any argument work to a large extent - SO WHY BOTHER?
Male or female, so long as the flight deck crew are well qualified, current and motivated they will make me feel safe.
[This message has been edited by Final 3 Greens (edited 05 July 2001).]
Let's get some clarity....
All of us, male or female come with our own cocktail of "human factors" that give us an individual profile.
Hopefully the training, certification and ongoing check system ensures that the unique package we each bring falls within the boundaries of safe aviating.
As the social scientist Jaspars once concluded, the more experimentation with groups of people, the less certain the outcome, so basically you can take the stats and make any argument work to a large extent - SO WHY BOTHER?
Male or female, so long as the flight deck crew are well qualified, current and motivated they will make me feel safe.
[This message has been edited by Final 3 Greens (edited 05 July 2001).]
A while ago I used to train ab-initio pilots and came to the conclusion that there were no such things as 'average' lady pilots. Why? Because if you told one that her flight had rated an average assessment, then she'd usually try to do better - whereas if you told a bloke his trip was 'average' then he'd settle for 'good enough' and slope off to the pub with his mates! And the ladies would help eachother when it came to learning checklists etc.
Very, very few lady students were truly awful - but they'd had the strength of character to give it a go. Whereas the equivalent bloke would have never bothered even trying to do better.
I have found, however, that lady student pilots were rather more prone to struggle if they had an unreasonable instructor. I inherited at least a couple who had been flying with an insructor who didn't believe in lady aircrew - but given a chance to show that they could do the job, they both did OK!
Still remember a lady DanDare pilot getting her pax home during a Spanish ATC strike by calling their bluff and accepting a cruise level of FL 170 for her '707!!
Very, very few lady students were truly awful - but they'd had the strength of character to give it a go. Whereas the equivalent bloke would have never bothered even trying to do better.
I have found, however, that lady student pilots were rather more prone to struggle if they had an unreasonable instructor. I inherited at least a couple who had been flying with an insructor who didn't believe in lady aircrew - but given a chance to show that they could do the job, they both did OK!
Still remember a lady DanDare pilot getting her pax home during a Spanish ATC strike by calling their bluff and accepting a cruise level of FL 170 for her '707!!
Join Date: Oct 1998
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Someone mentioned earlier that the female percentage of Professional Pilots in the UK was around 3%. Will someone please explain why it is that with all of the (illegal) positive discrimination, favourable treatment, extra training, etc that well have all seen go on, the percentage still so low?
Incidentally, examples from the US are worthless, as anyone with even a basic knowledge of affirmative action programmes will testify.
Incidentally, examples from the US are worthless, as anyone with even a basic knowledge of affirmative action programmes will testify.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wow! So many views, yet another thread about female pilots (why?).
Pandora, I have to say that I agree with pretty much everything you have said.
There are a number of things which have come up over the last 3 pages to which I might throw in a few comments.
c3% of ATPL holders are women. c2% of pilots in UK airlines are female. So if all these airlines are giving preference to women applicants, why isn't this percentage higher?
Can anyone name a single UK airline that gives unfair preference to female applicants?
The airline I work for still rarely recognises its female pilots. They have yet to introduce uniforms for female pilots (we wear the men's fit), and I still get memos, e-mails etc. addressed "dear gentlemen". I guess I should assume they don't apply to me then
It has been shown that women are better at multi tasking than men (probably comes from all that cooking practice, eh? )
As for accidents, well let's see, there was an example quoted saying that women always go by the rules not common sense. Recently I was reading about one of the early Comet crashes, the pilot could have got airborne had he thought, but he stuck rigidly to the rules and ran off the runway.
Just one example maybe, but there are loads more.
One recent one that springs to mind - two male pilots take off and discover they cannot raise the gear. They decide to continue to another airport, some distance away. Part way through the flight they realise they are using quite a bit of fuel. Instead of landing at the airport that they are close to they decide to fly over a mountainous area to another airport. The aircraft runs out of fuel, the pilots just manage, by luck, to glide it to an airport and by some miracle no one is killed. The two pilots sat there, watching the fuel flow out, and didn't think that maybe the aircraft would use more fuel with gear down than without. Now, imagine if that had been two female pilots. They would have been seriously bombarded with insults from the general public, newspapers and pilot community in general. But of course they were male. It didn't even make the papers.
It is difficult to compare women pilots against male pilots. Everyone is different. Everyone has different strengths and weaknesses. Some men are particularly good at communication. Some women are particularly good at flying.
The only time rubbish like hormones, strength, women drivers, etc. comes up is when men bring it up in forums like this one.
Maybe I am lucky but 99% of the Captains I fly with are great, we get on really well, they have no qualms about letting me get on with flying the airplane and making decisions and they tell me that they like to fly with me.
I also fly as part of an all female crew fairly regularly and we get no end of sh*t from passengers. We put up with this on a daily basis. Considering I am as qualified as a male pilot, I went through a selection process, in which I beat 96 male applicants, purely on my own ability, I pass my 6 monthly checks with no problems, and did my training in the minimum time, I think it is unfair that passengers constantly question my ability and my "right" to be in the flightdeck based on my gender.
That is the one thing you chaps out there are lucky to not have to deal with every day at work.
Of course, I am always diplomatic and polite, even when they are being downright rude to me. I feel it is their ignorance that is the problem, not mine.
We don't have it any easier or any harder than men.
So why do we need threads like this one?
Pandora, I have to say that I agree with pretty much everything you have said.
There are a number of things which have come up over the last 3 pages to which I might throw in a few comments.
c3% of ATPL holders are women. c2% of pilots in UK airlines are female. So if all these airlines are giving preference to women applicants, why isn't this percentage higher?
Can anyone name a single UK airline that gives unfair preference to female applicants?
The airline I work for still rarely recognises its female pilots. They have yet to introduce uniforms for female pilots (we wear the men's fit), and I still get memos, e-mails etc. addressed "dear gentlemen". I guess I should assume they don't apply to me then
It has been shown that women are better at multi tasking than men (probably comes from all that cooking practice, eh?
)As for accidents, well let's see, there was an example quoted saying that women always go by the rules not common sense. Recently I was reading about one of the early Comet crashes, the pilot could have got airborne had he thought, but he stuck rigidly to the rules and ran off the runway.
Just one example maybe, but there are loads more.
One recent one that springs to mind - two male pilots take off and discover they cannot raise the gear. They decide to continue to another airport, some distance away. Part way through the flight they realise they are using quite a bit of fuel. Instead of landing at the airport that they are close to they decide to fly over a mountainous area to another airport. The aircraft runs out of fuel, the pilots just manage, by luck, to glide it to an airport and by some miracle no one is killed. The two pilots sat there, watching the fuel flow out, and didn't think that maybe the aircraft would use more fuel with gear down than without. Now, imagine if that had been two female pilots. They would have been seriously bombarded with insults from the general public, newspapers and pilot community in general. But of course they were male. It didn't even make the papers.
It is difficult to compare women pilots against male pilots. Everyone is different. Everyone has different strengths and weaknesses. Some men are particularly good at communication. Some women are particularly good at flying.
The only time rubbish like hormones, strength, women drivers, etc. comes up is when men bring it up in forums like this one.
Maybe I am lucky but 99% of the Captains I fly with are great, we get on really well, they have no qualms about letting me get on with flying the airplane and making decisions and they tell me that they like to fly with me.
I also fly as part of an all female crew fairly regularly and we get no end of sh*t from passengers. We put up with this on a daily basis. Considering I am as qualified as a male pilot, I went through a selection process, in which I beat 96 male applicants, purely on my own ability, I pass my 6 monthly checks with no problems, and did my training in the minimum time, I think it is unfair that passengers constantly question my ability and my "right" to be in the flightdeck based on my gender.
That is the one thing you chaps out there are lucky to not have to deal with every day at work.
Of course, I am always diplomatic and polite, even when they are being downright rude to me. I feel it is their ignorance that is the problem, not mine.
We don't have it any easier or any harder than men.
So why do we need threads like this one?
Pandora wrote...
"It has been conclusively shown that differences in spatial ability between men and women (and indeed left and right-handed people) can be minimised with practise."
It is indeed true that the magnitude of the sex difference in average performance on certain tests of spatial ability can be reduced by practice. However, generally the difference cannot be totally eliminated - and there's the whole issue of differential sensitivity to practice effects as well.
The bottom line is that there are robust and well-documented sex differences in performance on certain tests of spatial ability - some favouring men (e.g. mental rotation), some favouring women (e.g. location memory). However, it’s not clear what implications these differences have for modern aviation.
One thing that’s very important to bear in mind is that for most tests the performance distributions for males and female overlap considerably. For example, for mental rotation a substantial proportion of women perform better than the male average – often about 30%. I would expect that the majority of female pilots would fall into this group.
I’ve actually done some research in this area myself (I’m a psychologist) and found an extraordinary amount of variation among females in performance on a 3D mental rotation tests. Females were more variable in their performance than males – which is unusual since males are the more variable sex in most other cognitive domains.
"It has been conclusively shown that differences in spatial ability between men and women (and indeed left and right-handed people) can be minimised with practise."
It is indeed true that the magnitude of the sex difference in average performance on certain tests of spatial ability can be reduced by practice. However, generally the difference cannot be totally eliminated - and there's the whole issue of differential sensitivity to practice effects as well.
The bottom line is that there are robust and well-documented sex differences in performance on certain tests of spatial ability - some favouring men (e.g. mental rotation), some favouring women (e.g. location memory). However, it’s not clear what implications these differences have for modern aviation.
One thing that’s very important to bear in mind is that for most tests the performance distributions for males and female overlap considerably. For example, for mental rotation a substantial proportion of women perform better than the male average – often about 30%. I would expect that the majority of female pilots would fall into this group.
I’ve actually done some research in this area myself (I’m a psychologist) and found an extraordinary amount of variation among females in performance on a 3D mental rotation tests. Females were more variable in their performance than males – which is unusual since males are the more variable sex in most other cognitive domains.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
Posts: 167
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I must say that I do not care if I am sitting next to a Male or Female on the flight deck. As long as they are qualified and meet the standards that are required for the position.
If they do not meet these standards (male or female) then they should not be there.
I do get a little annoyed with companies that have a quota system and require a certain percentage of their pilots to be a specific gender. This is causing companies to lower their standards just to meet numbers, this should not happen.
If they do not meet these standards (male or female) then they should not be there.
I do get a little annoyed with companies that have a quota system and require a certain percentage of their pilots to be a specific gender. This is causing companies to lower their standards just to meet numbers, this should not happen.
I seems amazing that in 2001 we are even having this debate, I would have thought that by now it is not even an issue. It is quite correct that are very few women compared to men in airline flightdecks, there are I think two reasons for this.
Firstly it is only in the last 10-15 years that women have started to overcome the prejudice, built up over many years, that certain jobs are only suitable for men. As far as flying is concerned this has probably never been true but society takes a long time to change and to accept new ideas.
Secondly, it may be that flying is a job that not very many women WANT to do. We are different after all. There are lots of jobs that more women prefer to do than men and vice versa, nothing sexist about that, as I said we are different.
We have a lot of lady pilots in our company now and I really don't give it a second thought anymore. Some of the women I have flown with are first rate pilots in every way, most are very good and one or two are pretty poor. In other words EXACTLY the same as the cross section of male pilots, there is no difference.
So come on, the debate is over, women on the flightdeck are here to stay and quite right to. Lets just get on with the job!.
[ 15 July 2001: Message edited by: Max Angle ]
Firstly it is only in the last 10-15 years that women have started to overcome the prejudice, built up over many years, that certain jobs are only suitable for men. As far as flying is concerned this has probably never been true but society takes a long time to change and to accept new ideas.
Secondly, it may be that flying is a job that not very many women WANT to do. We are different after all. There are lots of jobs that more women prefer to do than men and vice versa, nothing sexist about that, as I said we are different.
We have a lot of lady pilots in our company now and I really don't give it a second thought anymore. Some of the women I have flown with are first rate pilots in every way, most are very good and one or two are pretty poor. In other words EXACTLY the same as the cross section of male pilots, there is no difference.
So come on, the debate is over, women on the flightdeck are here to stay and quite right to. Lets just get on with the job!.
[ 15 July 2001: Message edited by: Max Angle ]
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: EGPF
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well said,Max,well said.At the end of the day we're all here because we love flying.I also love to be with people who love flying,whether they're male/female/whatever.They ALL have something to contribute.Never had 'spatial ability' problems personally,although I'd admit to being crap at starting up fuel bowsers & being so short I've needed a booster cushion on occasion..Oh and been slightly distracted by the beauty of handsome fellow flyers,but that's another thing...
Keep safe. y'all!
Ali (NOT Alastair,Alan,Alex or Albert as usually presumed..)
Keep safe. y'all!
Ali (NOT Alastair,Alan,Alex or Albert as usually presumed..)
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: The 51st State
Posts: 229
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So how many pilots, male or female have a male au pair or child minder? Would you be comfortable with that?
Horses for courses, the debate will never end until there is only one sex!. Just a thought.
Harry
Horses for courses, the debate will never end until there is only one sex!. Just a thought.
Harry
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As others have said ,I don't care who I fly with, as I have flown with quite a few females who are more efficient at their occupation than some of the males I have flown with.(not to mention easier on the optic nerve!)
In the past a female pilot may have been a novelty,and having spoken to pilots who flew many of the older airline aicraft, this may have been that a certain amount of physical strength was required in certain situations. This is not much of a requirement today.
What I do object to is the attitudes of some airlines, through political correctness/ minority views on equal opportunity, or whatever you want to call it, not giving the best candidates, regardless of gender, positions available.
They try to deny this happens, but I know at least one Australian airline (with white and red aircraft), that used to contact female pilots who had not applied to them, and ask them why they had not applied and when they were going to apply. This comes from pilots who have been contacted.
Male pilots have never been contacted and asked the same questions!
In the past a female pilot may have been a novelty,and having spoken to pilots who flew many of the older airline aicraft, this may have been that a certain amount of physical strength was required in certain situations. This is not much of a requirement today.
What I do object to is the attitudes of some airlines, through political correctness/ minority views on equal opportunity, or whatever you want to call it, not giving the best candidates, regardless of gender, positions available.
They try to deny this happens, but I know at least one Australian airline (with white and red aircraft), that used to contact female pilots who had not applied to them, and ask them why they had not applied and when they were going to apply. This comes from pilots who have been contacted.
Male pilots have never been contacted and asked the same questions!
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Given that the only airline I know of in the UK that has at least 3% women amongst its pilots (3%of ATPLers are female so lets say thats the figure) is British Airways, why are so many people harping on about this favouritism to women? There may be one or two per country but I think it more than balances out when you consider that there are more than one or two airlines per country who discriminate against women.
So anyway, as someone asked previously, lets have a list of those airlines who favour women and therefore, by definition, must have more than 3% of its pilots who are female.
So anyway, as someone asked previously, lets have a list of those airlines who favour women and therefore, by definition, must have more than 3% of its pilots who are female.
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I just don't believe this! Every couple of months or so, we have a thread on PPRuNe called women pilots, female pilots, or something similar. Every time, the same old arguments get trotted out, the same old prejudices get aired. What is all this crap? Women have been flying since 1912. Flying requires hands, feet, eyes, co-ordination, and an ability to make decisions, not a willy and a particular set of chromosomes. (I sometimes wonder if an extra appendage might be useful in a helicopter, mind you, but I think it's a third hand I need really 
). This just shouldn't even be a subject that needs discussing.
). This just shouldn't even be a subject that needs discussing.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: EGPF
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ME TOO!SICK AND BLOODY TIRED OF IT.YES,I HAVE T*TS.NO THEY DON'T GET IN THE WAY OF'FULL & FREE MOVEMENT OF THE CONTROL COLUMN'.YES,I CAN PARK AN AIRCRAFT & NO I DON'T NEED ANY HELP TO DO IT.YES WE DO FLY WHEN WE'VE GOT A PERIOD (HOW ANYONE CAN BE SO RUDE AS TO EVEN ASK THIS DEFIES BELIEF).NO,WE DON'T HAVE REAR VIEW MIRRORS TO PUT OUR MAKEUP ON WITH.NO,WE DON'T HAVE A SPACE IN THE COCKPIT TO PUT OUR HANDBAGS IN.NO,I'M NOT HERE TO 'MAKE UP THE NUMBERS'.I'M HERE BECAUSE I LOVE FLYING & BECAUSE I DAMN WELL CAN !!!AND I'D BE A HELL OF A LOT HAPPIER IF I COULD DO IT IN PEACE FROM IDIOTS WHO THINK I ONLY DO IT SO I CAN MEET A NICE PILOT HUSBAND!!!BUGGER OFF & LEAVE US ALONE!!
Aaaah....that's better..
Aaaah....that's better..
I'm glad you feel better, ScottishBurd 
Just remember ... TDR initially started this thread to express genuine support of women pilots.
Of course, no matter the intent, these types of threads bring out the worst in some people.
Don't let the goofballs get to you, because they are in fact the ignorant ones. Just let your own performance and professionalism take precedence, and you will soon find that the silly comments stop (or you can at least laugh at them) without going on a crusade.
[ 29 July 2001: Message edited by: McD ]
Just remember ... TDR initially started this thread to express genuine support of women pilots.
Of course, no matter the intent, these types of threads bring out the worst in some people.
Don't let the goofballs get to you, because they are in fact the ignorant ones. Just let your own performance and professionalism take precedence, and you will soon find that the silly comments stop (or you can at least laugh at them) without going on a crusade.
[ 29 July 2001: Message edited by: McD ]
Join Date: May 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good job ScottishBurd
I have few words to add to those who give us a hard time.
I FELL IN LOVE WITH FLYING EVER SINCE I WAS 4 YEARS OLD. AND YES, WHEN I TOLD MY FATHER ABOUT IT, HE GAVE ME A 737 TOY FOR MY 5TH BIRTHDAY. I HAD NO IDEA OF MAKING NUMBERS FOR WOMEN PILOTS THEN.
AND NO, I DON'T PREFER A PILOT HUSBAND ALTHOUGH SOME OF THEM MAKE MY MOUTH WATERLY.
IN SHORT, IT'S NOT ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE BUT THE LOVE OF FLYING.
SO ALL OF YOU FEMALE PILOT BASHERS, PLEASE LEAVE US ALONE
I have few words to add to those who give us a hard time.
I FELL IN LOVE WITH FLYING EVER SINCE I WAS 4 YEARS OLD. AND YES, WHEN I TOLD MY FATHER ABOUT IT, HE GAVE ME A 737 TOY FOR MY 5TH BIRTHDAY. I HAD NO IDEA OF MAKING NUMBERS FOR WOMEN PILOTS THEN.
AND NO, I DON'T PREFER A PILOT HUSBAND ALTHOUGH SOME OF THEM MAKE MY MOUTH WATERLY.
IN SHORT, IT'S NOT ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE BUT THE LOVE OF FLYING.
SO ALL OF YOU FEMALE PILOT BASHERS, PLEASE LEAVE US ALONE
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Everywhere
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
McD (And others)
You are correct. I did originally post this in support of female pilots.
This has stimulated a heated debate with positive and negative comments. I am, however suprised in todays society that so amny people have a problem with this issue.
Imagine this..if I had changed the wording slightly..how about "Isn't it nice to see so many "Ethnic" pilots flying aircraft"
Would I now be branded a rasist for even daring to have such thoughts? (I don't have a problem with race, colour, creed or sexual orientation.
Note to the administrators; feel free to close this thread, I feel it's run it's course.
You are correct. I did originally post this in support of female pilots.
This has stimulated a heated debate with positive and negative comments. I am, however suprised in todays society that so amny people have a problem with this issue.
Imagine this..if I had changed the wording slightly..how about "Isn't it nice to see so many "Ethnic" pilots flying aircraft"
Would I now be branded a rasist for even daring to have such thoughts? (I don't have a problem with race, colour, creed or sexual orientation.
Note to the administrators; feel free to close this thread, I feel it's run it's course.
