Usage and Abusage
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Usage and Abusage
We’re all familiar with this scenario; Someone posts on PPRuNe and makes a spelling mistake. Pretty soon there is another post picking him up for it, followed by an indignant and often abusive post criticising the corrector for being pedantic.
I recently read a post that actually claimed, “language is a very blunt instrument” (which it is not) and that “[spelling] is just not important” See Nite Flite’s post “Pilot or Not” http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/For...ML/009735.html – this is a good example.
By spelling incorrectly language is indeed blunted, even butchered in the case of bad punctuation (incorrectly placed commas that alter or reverse the meaning of a sentence). It is a thin excuse to claim that readers know what is meant, how can we if the text does not actually say it?
It surprises me that some feel accurate spelling is pedantic when in fact it is merely correct, particularly in this pedantic business of Professional Aviation. People will complain fast enough if they get 9p change from a purchase when they are owed 90, is that being pedantic? Decision height is what? About 300 ft!! No, I don’t think so…
I’m not saying that everyone’s spelling should be perfect – mine isn’t – it’s the “doesn’t matter” that bothers me, particularly amongst people whose profession requires constant accuracy and identification of errors. Some people are better at writing than others, and sometimes we hit the wrong key and don’t spot it (see the flak someone got for that in the Pilot or Not thread). Some errors are forgivable, some understandable and some beyond the pale, such as “there” for “their” and apostrophising plural’s which is sadly so common.
Or are they just saying that correct spelling etc is not important here on PPRuNe, which is quite a different thing?
There are posts here in every form of English from text-book perfect to internet phonetic scribble, so how should we respond to those we see as wrong?
It is write or wrong to correct mistake’s on every occasion, that is reasonable.
Discuss…
I recently read a post that actually claimed, “language is a very blunt instrument” (which it is not) and that “[spelling] is just not important” See Nite Flite’s post “Pilot or Not” http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/For...ML/009735.html – this is a good example.
By spelling incorrectly language is indeed blunted, even butchered in the case of bad punctuation (incorrectly placed commas that alter or reverse the meaning of a sentence). It is a thin excuse to claim that readers know what is meant, how can we if the text does not actually say it?
It surprises me that some feel accurate spelling is pedantic when in fact it is merely correct, particularly in this pedantic business of Professional Aviation. People will complain fast enough if they get 9p change from a purchase when they are owed 90, is that being pedantic? Decision height is what? About 300 ft!! No, I don’t think so…
I’m not saying that everyone’s spelling should be perfect – mine isn’t – it’s the “doesn’t matter” that bothers me, particularly amongst people whose profession requires constant accuracy and identification of errors. Some people are better at writing than others, and sometimes we hit the wrong key and don’t spot it (see the flak someone got for that in the Pilot or Not thread). Some errors are forgivable, some understandable and some beyond the pale, such as “there” for “their” and apostrophising plural’s which is sadly so common.
Or are they just saying that correct spelling etc is not important here on PPRuNe, which is quite a different thing?
There are posts here in every form of English from text-book perfect to internet phonetic scribble, so how should we respond to those we see as wrong?
It is write or wrong to correct mistake’s on every occasion, that is reasonable.
Discuss…
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Some of our friends on the board are not "furst-langage-English-speekers" and as long as their posts are intelligible I don't see that they need to run everything through an (American!) spell-checker before posting.
Some our good fiends are not qualifried copy-trypists, and who needs to have "post edited by" just because an adjacent key got hit by mistalje.
Finally, I had the pleasure (?) of having Latin drummed into me at school (the one I went to was "aproved"!!) but I'm not going to moan about somebody thinking the plural of addendum is addendums, and not addendaria.
Who's next???
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Through hardship to the bras
Some our good fiends are not qualifried copy-trypists, and who needs to have "post edited by" just because an adjacent key got hit by mistalje.
Finally, I had the pleasure (?) of having Latin drummed into me at school (the one I went to was "aproved"!!) but I'm not going to moan about somebody thinking the plural of addendum is addendums, and not addendaria.
Who's next???
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Through hardship to the bras
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I’m next. Reference “language is a very blunt instrument’. A cockney will reply ‘Was you?’ to a friend’s statement of his whereabouts last night when it should be ‘Were you?’ Or should it?
With a singular ‘you’ I reckon the cockney is grammatically correct as in ‘Was he?’ ‘Were they?’
Latin scholars and language pedants – sort this one out; or rather, sort out this one.
With a singular ‘you’ I reckon the cockney is grammatically correct as in ‘Was he?’ ‘Were they?’
Latin scholars and language pedants – sort this one out; or rather, sort out this one.
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Our language is ever changing, you only have to see the silly season news items detailing the latest additions to the Oxford English Dictionary to realise that. I find most of these additions irritating as they seem to originate from sales and IT departments and I refuse to use them.
Not much excuse for poor spelling though (except where Aeroboro and others who are posting in a second language are concerned) and I agree that the most abused are there/their and the dreaded greengrocer's apostrophe. This smacks of laziness and projects a certain image. If people are happy to perceived in this light then that's up to them. I don't claim to be perfect but at least I make an effort.
Not much excuse for poor spelling though (except where Aeroboro and others who are posting in a second language are concerned) and I agree that the most abused are there/their and the dreaded greengrocer's apostrophe. This smacks of laziness and projects a certain image. If people are happy to perceived in this light then that's up to them. I don't claim to be perfect but at least I make an effort.
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The trouble is, forget, that grammatically in English, "you" is always treated as the plural form. Hence "You were" is correct - "You was", whilst acceptable as part of a regional dialect (it occurs not only in Cockney) vernacular, is not correct.
The singular form, thou/thee/thy, which also had echoes of the French familiarity of tu/toi/ton, fell into disuse partly for reasons of that familiarity in early Victorian times. Only still accepted as part of traditional religious worship, the 2nd. person singular is now, curiously enough, considered the formal version.
The disuse of that from is, IMHO, a pity. It provided a certain amount of subtlety that other languages (e.g. Dutch, French and others) still retain.
As far as the pedantry of correcting others' spelling and grammar, I have not done so yet. I have felt like doing so many times, though. When the author is obviously not a native English speaker, to do so can cause unnecessary upset, hence my reluctance. Were I (that's the subjunctive) to do so, it would be difficult to know where to stop!
Oh dear... my former classics teachers would be proud if they knew how much had, contrary to all appearances, sunk in... One doesn't receive a classical education, one suffers from it!
The singular form, thou/thee/thy, which also had echoes of the French familiarity of tu/toi/ton, fell into disuse partly for reasons of that familiarity in early Victorian times. Only still accepted as part of traditional religious worship, the 2nd. person singular is now, curiously enough, considered the formal version.
The disuse of that from is, IMHO, a pity. It provided a certain amount of subtlety that other languages (e.g. Dutch, French and others) still retain.
As far as the pedantry of correcting others' spelling and grammar, I have not done so yet. I have felt like doing so many times, though. When the author is obviously not a native English speaker, to do so can cause unnecessary upset, hence my reluctance. Were I (that's the subjunctive) to do so, it would be difficult to know where to stop!
Oh dear... my former classics teachers would be proud if they knew how much had, contrary to all appearances, sunk in... One doesn't receive a classical education, one suffers from it!
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What a terrific post!
We ort to be abel to git the jissed of what dont matter much in reel lyfe. its eXpresshun what cahnts innit? no what i meen?
I look forward to fun with this one.
Or should I say. "I say old chap, how absolutleeeee spiffing, good show what?
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Flintstone;
Is "Aeroboro" me?
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Let me put straight : English isn't even my second language...is my third. Although this is no excuse at all for bad writing/spelling/grammar , I try to do my best .If someone could see the problems I (and certainly many others) go trough to post something..... Sometimes I delete an entire post because I can't figure if two or three words are the way they are supposed to be. And some people may even take notice of how many times I have edited some of my messages. I even got a post deleted by an administrator another day because I managed to put some words in some way that were way out of hand and good education.(and I apologised for that)
capt waffoo ;
Despite (some) people "demanding" a perfect written language (English on this particularly case) , I can't agree at all on this. There are 18000+ registered members on pprune today....ask Danny how many are Brits / Yankees or Oz ones.....I'm sure that you'll find that you (English speaker national) are certainly the majority , but it still don't give you (or anyone of the spelling police) the right of jump on and degrade a fellow that is a non-English speaker.
Even in your own backyard the great percentage of the population don't speak/write correct English (that goes for Brits and Americans). Although the English language IS the easiest language to learn on earth today....your own fellows can't do that properly and yet you demand of us outsiders to stand up to your standards! Sincerely...give me a break would ya? English is so full of "slang's" today that is hard to tell what is right or wrong even for you sometimes....and again you demand that from us........
Then you have the "Internet factor". Many , as I , do post online and try to be as quickly as possible and avoid mistakes at the same time. That is almost impossible. Sorry for that.
I have a good idea for you. Go learn German or Dutch or Spanish....then after you felt confident enough to communicate , go to some BB that is on one of these languages and post something. With some luck you will be victim of the spelling police as I and many others are being targeted here on the pprune.
I could think of pages of arguments to show that it's not even close to fairness what you all (spelling police) are doing here.
But you know what? All of you that are unhappy with our presence (writing) , start sending e-mails to the administrators to have us blocked from accessing or posting on the Pprune if that will make your day more bright.......and for God sakes...don't ever leave your country again, unless it is for another English speaking country.And as long as I'm permitted to post here I will do so...and if that upsets you...well I don't care (anymore).
Have a nice day you all!
PS ; For the people I know that are English speaking natives...sorry.....this is not for you...but these fellows are really good at the art of upsetting someone......
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[This message has been edited by AeroBoero (edited 04 September 2000).]
Is "Aeroboro" me?
____________________________________
Let me put straight : English isn't even my second language...is my third. Although this is no excuse at all for bad writing/spelling/grammar , I try to do my best .If someone could see the problems I (and certainly many others) go trough to post something..... Sometimes I delete an entire post because I can't figure if two or three words are the way they are supposed to be. And some people may even take notice of how many times I have edited some of my messages. I even got a post deleted by an administrator another day because I managed to put some words in some way that were way out of hand and good education.(and I apologised for that)
capt waffoo ;
Despite (some) people "demanding" a perfect written language (English on this particularly case) , I can't agree at all on this. There are 18000+ registered members on pprune today....ask Danny how many are Brits / Yankees or Oz ones.....I'm sure that you'll find that you (English speaker national) are certainly the majority , but it still don't give you (or anyone of the spelling police) the right of jump on and degrade a fellow that is a non-English speaker.
Even in your own backyard the great percentage of the population don't speak/write correct English (that goes for Brits and Americans). Although the English language IS the easiest language to learn on earth today....your own fellows can't do that properly and yet you demand of us outsiders to stand up to your standards! Sincerely...give me a break would ya? English is so full of "slang's" today that is hard to tell what is right or wrong even for you sometimes....and again you demand that from us........
Then you have the "Internet factor". Many , as I , do post online and try to be as quickly as possible and avoid mistakes at the same time. That is almost impossible. Sorry for that.
I have a good idea for you. Go learn German or Dutch or Spanish....then after you felt confident enough to communicate , go to some BB that is on one of these languages and post something. With some luck you will be victim of the spelling police as I and many others are being targeted here on the pprune.
I could think of pages of arguments to show that it's not even close to fairness what you all (spelling police) are doing here.
But you know what? All of you that are unhappy with our presence (writing) , start sending e-mails to the administrators to have us blocked from accessing or posting on the Pprune if that will make your day more bright.......and for God sakes...don't ever leave your country again, unless it is for another English speaking country.And as long as I'm permitted to post here I will do so...and if that upsets you...well I don't care (anymore).
Have a nice day you all!
PS ; For the people I know that are English speaking natives...sorry.....this is not for you...but these fellows are really good at the art of upsetting someone......
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Reporte través de XAREO
[This message has been edited by AeroBoero (edited 04 September 2000).]
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I blame the schools myself - I understand that teachers now (in the English state system anyway) are prohibited from correcting grammatical or spelling errors as it's an "infringement of individual expression"!
In the course of the Celtic project, I have ploughed through several hundred CVs personally - a very large proportion of which contained serious spelling and grammatical errors - curiously mainly from native English (well, I'm including - perhaps ill-advisedly - Americans in this category). Do I junk them because someone unable to write decent English is likely to render him/herself open to misinterpretation when it's most important? - or do I overlook that as an 'individualism' (although in some cases they are more like Spoonerisms )?
Finally, these poor educational standards make it hard for me to find a decent secretary/PA as well. The last one I had - despite having attended Cheltenham Ladies College - couldn't tell an apostrophe from a semicolon; and in any event sprinled punctuation around on an apparently random basis. And she had 'A' level English!
Finally, I'd like to make the point that people for whom English is a second (or third, or fourth) language usually manage to express themselves perfectly clearly - even with spelling and grammatical errors. It's the 'native' English speakers that should know better!
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Happiness is a warm L1011
In the course of the Celtic project, I have ploughed through several hundred CVs personally - a very large proportion of which contained serious spelling and grammatical errors - curiously mainly from native English (well, I'm including - perhaps ill-advisedly - Americans in this category). Do I junk them because someone unable to write decent English is likely to render him/herself open to misinterpretation when it's most important? - or do I overlook that as an 'individualism' (although in some cases they are more like Spoonerisms
)?Finally, these poor educational standards make it hard for me to find a decent secretary/PA as well. The last one I had - despite having attended Cheltenham Ladies College - couldn't tell an apostrophe from a semicolon; and in any event sprinled punctuation around on an apparently random basis. And she had 'A' level English!
Finally, I'd like to make the point that people for whom English is a second (or third, or fourth) language usually manage to express themselves perfectly clearly - even with spelling and grammatical errors. It's the 'native' English speakers that should know better!
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Happiness is a warm L1011
Guest
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Cap'n Waffoo,
Capital letter after a semi-colon? (line 1)
This type of Internet forum tends to generate a lot of "train of thought" type postings and as such grammar and syntax tend to fall by the wayside. I see no problem with this at all. Additionally, the odd typo and punctuation failure are forgivable as we are not all dictation typists. That said, people will form a subconscious opinion of a poster if all his/her postings are littered with basic "you're/your" and "their/there" type blunders.
As IFR said though, as long as one gets one's point across clearly and concisely then what's the harm? On that note then, may I request that people actually read through their postings before pressing the Send button; some of the things that appear on these pages are utterly incomprehensible.
Capital letter after a semi-colon? (line 1)
This type of Internet forum tends to generate a lot of "train of thought" type postings and as such grammar and syntax tend to fall by the wayside. I see no problem with this at all. Additionally, the odd typo and punctuation failure are forgivable as we are not all dictation typists. That said, people will form a subconscious opinion of a poster if all his/her postings are littered with basic "you're/your" and "their/there" type blunders.
As IFR said though, as long as one gets one's point across clearly and concisely then what's the harm? On that note then, may I request that people actually read through their postings before pressing the Send button; some of the things that appear on these pages are utterly incomprehensible.
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AeroBoro,
Perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly. The point that I was trying to make is that those of us who use English as our first and/or only language have no excuse when it comes to incorrect spelling and grammar. Those such as yourself who are writing in their second or even third (I'm impressed) language should not be held up to ridicule, particularly when those doing the finger pointing have been too lazy to learn another language themselves. I always make a point of checking a Ppruner's profile before responding as it can help to explain why a particular phrase, spelling or syntax has been used.
Please re-read my posting. It was not my intention to offend you.
Perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly. The point that I was trying to make is that those of us who use English as our first and/or only language have no excuse when it comes to incorrect spelling and grammar. Those such as yourself who are writing in their second or even third (I'm impressed) language should not be held up to ridicule, particularly when those doing the finger pointing have been too lazy to learn another language themselves. I always make a point of checking a Ppruner's profile before responding as it can help to explain why a particular phrase, spelling or syntax has been used.
Please re-read my posting. It was not my intention to offend you.
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Flintstone ;
It wasn't directed at you (at all)....I still had the precaution of putting the line , but as you see.......I just wanted to know if "Aeroboro" was me.........but for what I wrote I still stand by that.
edited to show that I still can't manage good English
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[This message has been edited by AeroBoero (edited 04 September 2000).]
It wasn't directed at you (at all)....I still had the precaution of putting the line , but as you see.......I just wanted to know if "Aeroboro" was me.........but for what I wrote I still stand by that.
edited to show that I still can't manage good English
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[This message has been edited by AeroBoero (edited 04 September 2000).]
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Dear Capt. waffo, it is our pleasure to enclose an application form for the position of direct entry check and training captain. As a result of the enormous expansion over the past few years, the experience level of some of our c+t`ers has fallen to an unacceptable level. What we require is more pedants such as yourself, who have nothing better to do than amuse themselves by picking up on other peoples apparent inadequacies. Yours in faith...
If it rocks your boat so much, punch out.
If it rocks your boat so much, punch out.
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Guvnor, no;
Heaven, or Sister Theresa deserve Capitalisation (or Capitalization, not to offend Yankee Spelling Police!) whereas hell and nazi don't
(All those UBB codes really took some working out!)
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Through hardship to the bars
Heaven, or Sister Theresa deserve Capitalisation (or Capitalization, not to offend Yankee Spelling Police!) whereas hell and nazi don't
(All those UBB codes really took some working out!)
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Through hardship to the bars
Guest
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Addinf:
The apostrophe denotes possession or abbreviation - not plural. The greengrocers' apostrophe is sometimes all right, as in "Cauli's" but it has spread to "Potatoe's" etc.
And another thing - the useful asterisk * is usually rendered as Asterix. Damn that French comic. And another - nobody seems to know that Pacific is an ocean, and that specific is a different word entirely.
(Just the ramblings of someone who got his English degree 32 years ago!)
The apostrophe denotes possession or abbreviation - not plural. The greengrocers' apostrophe is sometimes all right, as in "Cauli's" but it has spread to "Potatoe's" etc.
And another thing - the useful asterisk * is usually rendered as Asterix. Damn that French comic. And another - nobody seems to know that Pacific is an ocean, and that specific is a different word entirely.
(Just the ramblings of someone who got his English degree 32 years ago!)
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I really don't believe this! Is every one on this BBS supposed to have a degree in English Lit from Cambridge? Or Oxford? Or ... give me a break!! Get a life and find something worthy to talk about because this is absolutely ridiculous.
I write ALL my posts in the way my thoughts present themselves. I put commas where I'd normally take a pause while talking, or to effect a brief distraction from whatever point I'm ATTEMPTING to make.
Do any of you people understand just how difficult the English language is ... when spoken in the UK? I've travelled around there a bit ... from the East End of London to the heart of Geordie territory. I can tell you that there's very little in common betwen those two extremes.
Have you ever had friends who come from a non-English speaking background? People who have had to learn anything up to 3 or more languages? Friends of mine, in Japan, are a wee bit (read "massively") confused by the pronunciation of English words, let alone the spelling of them. Makes it REAL hard for them to even find the word in a decent dictionary, I can assure you.
If any of you have ever used any other type of internet communication medium, perhaps like ICQ or Yahoo Chat etc., you'll know that there's heaps of abbreviations in use. There's also a lot of so-called bad spelling and poor grammar.
Wake up and smell the coffee, or tea, or whatever! There's a whole world outside of here and it's full of people with different levels of education, different languages, different concepts.
I have no problem at all with so-called bad spelling and/or grammar in posts here. If I don't understand a particular aspect in a post, I will ask ... very politely. I think that is the PROPER way.
I suspect that I've just wasted my time with this post, but couldn't ignore this form of ethnic cleansing. I vote that this subject be closed now and forever .... Amen!!
I write ALL my posts in the way my thoughts present themselves. I put commas where I'd normally take a pause while talking, or to effect a brief distraction from whatever point I'm ATTEMPTING to make.
Do any of you people understand just how difficult the English language is ... when spoken in the UK? I've travelled around there a bit ... from the East End of London to the heart of Geordie territory. I can tell you that there's very little in common betwen those two extremes.
Have you ever had friends who come from a non-English speaking background? People who have had to learn anything up to 3 or more languages? Friends of mine, in Japan, are a wee bit (read "massively") confused by the pronunciation of English words, let alone the spelling of them. Makes it REAL hard for them to even find the word in a decent dictionary, I can assure you.
If any of you have ever used any other type of internet communication medium, perhaps like ICQ or Yahoo Chat etc., you'll know that there's heaps of abbreviations in use. There's also a lot of so-called bad spelling and poor grammar.
Wake up and smell the coffee, or tea, or whatever! There's a whole world outside of here and it's full of people with different levels of education, different languages, different concepts.
I have no problem at all with so-called bad spelling and/or grammar in posts here. If I don't understand a particular aspect in a post, I will ask ... very politely. I think that is the PROPER way.
I suspect that I've just wasted my time with this post, but couldn't ignore this form of ethnic cleansing. I vote that this subject be closed now and forever .... Amen!!