Scary Approach
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Scary Approach
I was In phonex a few weeks ago and I noticed one evening two jets flying at roughly the same height across each others path I thought that doesn't look to good . One plane seemed to floor the engines and dive and the other seemed to floor it and climb. What do you reckon?
(Not pretending to say I saw a near miss just looked alot like one. Maybe nothing.)
Then another incident this time in Dallas also staying virtually on approach, huge roar one morning and my friend came running in saying she'd just seen a plane at about a 12-20 degree nose down angle(considering max altitude to be 1000-3000).
Then again in phoenix this time two light aircraft turning onto final by the looks of it, at deer valleym airport, the planes cant have been more than 100 feet apart. Seemed to be landing on parallel runways.
(Not pretending to say I saw a near miss just looked alot like one. Maybe nothing.)
Then another incident this time in Dallas also staying virtually on approach, huge roar one morning and my friend came running in saying she'd just seen a plane at about a 12-20 degree nose down angle(considering max altitude to be 1000-3000).
Then again in phoenix this time two light aircraft turning onto final by the looks of it, at deer valleym airport, the planes cant have been more than 100 feet apart. Seemed to be landing on parallel runways.
Last edited by drivez; 17th Aug 2008 at 20:57.
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Phoenix and Deer Valley both use parallel runways. Sometimes to see the airplanes approaching the airport, they may appear to be in conflict. They're not.
Other airports around Phoenix have traffic approaching and departing all the time as well, such as Mesa, Williams Gateway, Chandler, Scottsdale, etc. These outlying fields aren't far from the city either, and can be quite busy at times. Naturally, the trafic from these fields isn't necessarily going in the same direction as the traffic using Phoenix Skyharbor...but it could appear to be a conflict...it's not.
Other airports around Phoenix have traffic approaching and departing all the time as well, such as Mesa, Williams Gateway, Chandler, Scottsdale, etc. These outlying fields aren't far from the city either, and can be quite busy at times. Naturally, the trafic from these fields isn't necessarily going in the same direction as the traffic using Phoenix Skyharbor...but it could appear to be a conflict...it's not.
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
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I'd suggest you enjoy viewing aeroplanes and stop viewing things so exciteably and seeing things which are not there. Because 2 aeroplanes cross in the sky does not mean they have just missed each other. There is not a drama every time you view aeroplanes! Reports like yours do nothing for nervous flyers. If there was a drama, it will be very obvious, and probably reported in the news. You can only identify a drama if you are an expert watcher, and even then you will probably be wrong.
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I'd suggest you enjoy viewing aeroplanes and stop viewing things so exciteably and seeing things which are not there. Because 2 aeroplanes cross in the sky does not mean they have just missed each other. There is not a drama every time you view aeroplanes! Reports like yours do nothing for nervous flyers. If there was a drama, it will be very obvious, and probably reported in the news. You can only identify a drama if you are an expert watcher, and even then you will probably be wrong.
Because two airplanes cross the sky doesn't mean they a haven't just missed each other. The poster saw something, and asked about it. That's all.
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I've spend a reasonable part of my career with pieces of my own airplane a few feet or inches from other airplanes in flight, sometimes going the same direction, sometimes going the opposite, and can only say that assumptions will kill you.
I've lost friends and associates who met other airplanes that occupied their piece of sky, and such assumptions killed them, too.
The "big sky" theory was always flawed.
Don't forget that the first two automobiles on the face of the planet were involved in the first auto collision...and certainly airplanes continue to collide, too. TCAS doesn't prevent it. Controlled airspace doesn't prevent it. Where do most occur? In VFR conditions in controlled airspace while talking to ATC, in radar contact. Go figure.
When a bystander sees something and has a question, simply throwing out the assumption and big sky theory really does little to answer the question, or allay the concern.
I've lost friends and associates who met other airplanes that occupied their piece of sky, and such assumptions killed them, too.
The "big sky" theory was always flawed.
Don't forget that the first two automobiles on the face of the planet were involved in the first auto collision...and certainly airplanes continue to collide, too. TCAS doesn't prevent it. Controlled airspace doesn't prevent it. Where do most occur? In VFR conditions in controlled airspace while talking to ATC, in radar contact. Go figure.
When a bystander sees something and has a question, simply throwing out the assumption and big sky theory really does little to answer the question, or allay the concern.
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I know I'm not some happy larry who gets excited everytime I see two aircraft, cross, I threw in the deer valley because this is spoters balcony and afterall it's kind of intersting to see the pilots performing the move turning onto final for two parralell runways at the same time. However Is it normal procedure to pitch down and throttle back, and the other aircraft to pitch up and throttle back, everytime you meet another aircraft.
. Maybe I was wrong. just saying what I thought I saw. Maybe this was just the SOP on that particular approach for noise abaitment or whatever I have no idea.
I don't proclaim to be an expert I'm an enthusiast who saw something that I've never seen before and came here to ask you guys who are the experts what actually happened, thats why i said not saying I witnessed a near miss in my post. Didn't put it up to scare people or anything else i was just slightly intrigued, more so infact about the plane in Dallas actually because I've definately never heard anything like that before. I didn't want to get chewed out for it Rainboe. How do you know I'm not a nervous flyer?
. Maybe I was wrong. just saying what I thought I saw. Maybe this was just the SOP on that particular approach for noise abaitment or whatever I have no idea. I don't proclaim to be an expert I'm an enthusiast who saw something that I've never seen before and came here to ask you guys who are the experts what actually happened, thats why i said not saying I witnessed a near miss in my post. Didn't put it up to scare people or anything else i was just slightly intrigued, more so infact about the plane in Dallas actually because I've definately never heard anything like that before. I didn't want to get chewed out for it Rainboe. How do you know I'm not a nervous flyer?
Last edited by drivez; 19th Aug 2008 at 12:39.
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Drivez,
Without having been present to see what you saw, it's hard to comment on the particulars that the two aircraft may have seen or used. I've flown in and our of Deer Valley many occasions, usually in turbojet or turboprop equipment. The airport has, as you saw, a fairly high traffic density, largely with student pilot training. I can tell you from a much faster airplane's perspective, entering the traffic pattern there with so many students practicing and taking training can be not only frustrating but on occasion even a little uncomfortable...as students don't always elect to do what they should, cut others off, etc. I've had it happen there a few times.
In a training environment, why an instructor might choose to have the pilot retard power and pitch down or up would really depend on the point being made and what was going on at the time.
It's not normal for one aircraft to power back and pitch down, and another to power back and pitch up when meeting...but then it's not normal to meet, either. From the ground, parallax tends to distort the way airplanes appear to come together as they approach or fly together; this can be particularly true on a parallel approach. Especially so if one aircraft is flying a steeper approach than the other, and/or one is faster than the other.
With a smaller training field such as Deer Valley, using runways that are relatively close together, one runway will use a right hand traffic pattern while the other uses a left...this puts aircraft coming toward each other and converging as they turn the base leg for landing. Additionally, where the ends of the runways are not together, or an aircraft is landing long, the descent paths can create an illousion that might appear that the airplanes are diving through each other's approach path. As the aircraft approach on base and then turn toward the runway, it's easy to imagine how an airplane that's fast and low might reduce power and pitch up, and an aircraft that's high might reduce power and pitch down. Again, the specifics of what happened are only known to you and the pilots whom you witnessed.
Certainly midair collisions do occur. Not long ago a well publicized one occured in Phoenix between two news helicopters. Another occured a few years ago over the Scottsdale airport. I very nearly had one myself a few years ago on more than one occasion over Scottsdale, where a mix of no radar control, very diverse operations between high speed turbojets and small piston airpalnes and helicopters, and a busy demand on a single runway can create a potentially tense situation.
On one occasion I departed in the morning into the sun, after holding on the runway while a confused private pilot in a cherokee was told to turn a midfield crosswind (fly away from the runway). He reported doing so, I was cleared to takeoff, and as I climbed rapidly off the end of the runway in a Learjet, I passed very close to the Cherokee....who wasn't at all where he said he was, and who was hidden in the morning sun.
Over the past years, I've had very close encounters with other aircraft, on several occasions close enough to see what brand of sunglasses the other pilot was wearing. In most cases it's been in radar contact, talking to a controller, and in a few cases in situations in which I "owned" the special use airspace. Even with all the precautions and all the aircraft participating, mid air collisions do continue to occur. I can't say if you saw one nearly happen or not, but it's not unreasonable to imagine that you could have. With that said, considering the number of successful aircraft operations that take place on a daily basis, the midair collision still remains a very rare occurence...and many things we see from the ground that look like close calls aren't really that close in the air.
Without having been present to see what you saw, it's hard to comment on the particulars that the two aircraft may have seen or used. I've flown in and our of Deer Valley many occasions, usually in turbojet or turboprop equipment. The airport has, as you saw, a fairly high traffic density, largely with student pilot training. I can tell you from a much faster airplane's perspective, entering the traffic pattern there with so many students practicing and taking training can be not only frustrating but on occasion even a little uncomfortable...as students don't always elect to do what they should, cut others off, etc. I've had it happen there a few times.
In a training environment, why an instructor might choose to have the pilot retard power and pitch down or up would really depend on the point being made and what was going on at the time.
It's not normal for one aircraft to power back and pitch down, and another to power back and pitch up when meeting...but then it's not normal to meet, either. From the ground, parallax tends to distort the way airplanes appear to come together as they approach or fly together; this can be particularly true on a parallel approach. Especially so if one aircraft is flying a steeper approach than the other, and/or one is faster than the other.
With a smaller training field such as Deer Valley, using runways that are relatively close together, one runway will use a right hand traffic pattern while the other uses a left...this puts aircraft coming toward each other and converging as they turn the base leg for landing. Additionally, where the ends of the runways are not together, or an aircraft is landing long, the descent paths can create an illousion that might appear that the airplanes are diving through each other's approach path. As the aircraft approach on base and then turn toward the runway, it's easy to imagine how an airplane that's fast and low might reduce power and pitch up, and an aircraft that's high might reduce power and pitch down. Again, the specifics of what happened are only known to you and the pilots whom you witnessed.
Certainly midair collisions do occur. Not long ago a well publicized one occured in Phoenix between two news helicopters. Another occured a few years ago over the Scottsdale airport. I very nearly had one myself a few years ago on more than one occasion over Scottsdale, where a mix of no radar control, very diverse operations between high speed turbojets and small piston airpalnes and helicopters, and a busy demand on a single runway can create a potentially tense situation.
On one occasion I departed in the morning into the sun, after holding on the runway while a confused private pilot in a cherokee was told to turn a midfield crosswind (fly away from the runway). He reported doing so, I was cleared to takeoff, and as I climbed rapidly off the end of the runway in a Learjet, I passed very close to the Cherokee....who wasn't at all where he said he was, and who was hidden in the morning sun.
Over the past years, I've had very close encounters with other aircraft, on several occasions close enough to see what brand of sunglasses the other pilot was wearing. In most cases it's been in radar contact, talking to a controller, and in a few cases in situations in which I "owned" the special use airspace. Even with all the precautions and all the aircraft participating, mid air collisions do continue to occur. I can't say if you saw one nearly happen or not, but it's not unreasonable to imagine that you could have. With that said, considering the number of successful aircraft operations that take place on a daily basis, the midair collision still remains a very rare occurence...and many things we see from the ground that look like close calls aren't really that close in the air.
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SNS3Guppy
Thanks alot for your input kind of puts my mind at rest, actually viewed whilst staying in the scotsdale area by Camelback mountain. Thanks for the info though found it interesting to hear from a pilot about this kind of thing, and hear how I could have mistakenly thought I saw something.
Thanks again, happy flying.
Thanks again, happy flying.
