BD705 MAN-ORD Going with Cargo Hold Panels missing
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: 58-33N. 00-18W. Peterborough UK
Posts: 3,040
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
modelcuir did NOT ask a 'reasonable question'. He'd already decided there was a problem, and incompetence. 
And he can't spell.
And he can't spell.
No-one seemed to be bothered...in-fact the ground crew...you know the ones that are meant to be there for the safety of the aircraft but where actually just chatting and starting at me and them being amused that I am a plane spotter...well they didnt seem bothered about the panels that were missing... Infact I came back an hour later as it was being pushed back and they still hadnt done anything with it.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2008
Location: 550 steps from the airport pub
Age: 41
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You Spelt his username wrong you Prat!...and what were you saying? I'll listen to the intelligent pilots who can view ither people's points of view thanks...there's a reason why pilots and cabin crew are who they are! it's because they have passed competency tests and have shown their good natured personality that is able to reason with people in a just way...
The only reason for my post is detailed but you didnt bother to read it...selective reading?
The only reason for my post is detailed but you didnt bother to read it...selective reading?
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: EGGW
Posts: 2,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The panel has more than likely been damaged by a hi-loader and removed to be repaired.
How about a change in the title of this thread, as it is the hold door panel missing and not a cargo hold panel.
Not knowing the MEL on this a/c, but l could have a guess that you would not be able to despatch with a hold panel missing, which is why l read this thread.
How about a change in the title of this thread, as it is the hold door panel missing and not a cargo hold panel.
Not knowing the MEL on this a/c, but l could have a guess that you would not be able to despatch with a hold panel missing, which is why l read this thread.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Frequently people seem to use the anonymity afforded by this internet forum to spout unitelligible and thoughtless diatrabes at each other. In addition, some appear to think that the universal and public nature of the internet should allow each and every viewpoint, however ill-considered or ludicrous to be aired and assessed along with other, more intelligent questions.
This thread goes to show the worst of both.
The OP - claiming studying for ATPLs - should be in an adequate position to know the legal requirements for a pilot to perform a walkaround, know that aircraft remain airworthy with panels missing, and finally should not resort to "telling the press" when nobody listens to the uninformed viewpoint he holds (however poor the responses were). For certain, he should be adult enough to know that the press trawl these forums.
The responders should be in an adequate position to engage brain before replying, to consider that their responses are seen by a large audience, and to consider that the core of what was brought up by the OP was essentially a question - however poorly phrased.
I am not sure why it remains in R&N, but I doubt it will be here for long.
I have reported the above posts, and recommend that all involved re-register in a new and more adult guise before posting ever again.
This thread goes to show the worst of both.
The OP - claiming studying for ATPLs - should be in an adequate position to know the legal requirements for a pilot to perform a walkaround, know that aircraft remain airworthy with panels missing, and finally should not resort to "telling the press" when nobody listens to the uninformed viewpoint he holds (however poor the responses were). For certain, he should be adult enough to know that the press trawl these forums.
The responders should be in an adequate position to engage brain before replying, to consider that their responses are seen by a large audience, and to consider that the core of what was brought up by the OP was essentially a question - however poorly phrased.
I am not sure why it remains in R&N, but I doubt it will be here for long.
I have reported the above posts, and recommend that all involved re-register in a new and more adult guise before posting ever again.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2008
Location: 550 steps from the airport pub
Age: 41
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks...Sorry I am not an ATPL'er...I just got annoyed at his Pre-judging that I am nothing just because I happen to enjoy watching a few planes at the airport every now and then...
I'm a PPL'er though...I did know they do walkarounds but like i said before companies seem to have taken flight planning away from pilots and now the dispatcher does it...and I thought maybe they dont do a walk around at least on this occasion.
And Last poster also...saying about internet bringing the worst out...yes I think they probably would be as horribe in real life if they could get away with it...Just think....neighbours always seem to be nice on the whole but that's because they have to get along...similar to this...But I think I can relax and say pilots seem to be well rounded
I'm a PPL'er though...I did know they do walkarounds but like i said before companies seem to have taken flight planning away from pilots and now the dispatcher does it...and I thought maybe they dont do a walk around at least on this occasion.
And Last poster also...saying about internet bringing the worst out...yes I think they probably would be as horribe in real life if they could get away with it...Just think....neighbours always seem to be nice on the whole but that's because they have to get along...similar to this...But I think I can relax and say pilots seem to be well rounded
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: 58-33N. 00-18W. Peterborough UK
Posts: 3,040
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Let's draw a line under this ---- after -
You pre-judged a reputable airline and claimed it was operating a trans-Atlantic flight with defective (illegal) aircraft. You now understand it wasn't - and wouldn't. End of story.
Thanks...Sorry I am not an ATPL'er...I just got annoyed at his Pre-judging that I am nothing just because I happen to enjoy watching a few planes at the airport every now and then...
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2008
Location: 550 steps from the airport pub
Age: 41
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I didnt pre-judge it was flying illegally...I was concerned that people didnt see this problem....and wanted a view...exactly I was looking for views from professionals of which you are clearly not one of them...But thanks to the actual pilots and ones with a good nature who dont jump the gun...heaven forbid we have the bad posters as pilots...
Anyway I like BMI so go away! If the contracted out ground crew I.E not BMI were overlooking something then BMI would now be aware of them by someone on here that works for them and also the main reason I posted just to see if It would be safe...not for anything liable
Anyway I like BMI so go away! If the contracted out ground crew I.E not BMI were overlooking something then BMI would now be aware of them by someone on here that works for them and also the main reason I posted just to see if It would be safe...not for anything liable
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Modelcuirstudios
Sorry you've been flamed by a few intolerant people here on Pprune but rest assured that any bmi aircraft wouldn't depart transatlantic in an unsafe or illegal condition. The aircraft is given a full ETOPS check by extremely professional and highly experienced engineers prior to dispatch, the flight crew will do a thorough walk around check prior to accepting the aircraft (it's their arses out there at 30W if it all goes wrong after all!!!), and at the end of this chain are the ground crew who do a walk around, prior to pushing back the aircraft checking for loose and missing panels amongst other things and alert the crew if they find anything out of the ordinary.
Just so the engineers and flight crew know what is acceptable to have missing or damaged and what is not, they have a Minimum Equipment List and within this MEL is a section titled Configuration Deviation List (CDL). Under the structures section it details what can be missing and any performance penalties accrued. I've copied the relevant section below and as you can see 2 cover panels ( 1 fwd and 1 aft) are installed but none are needed for dispatch.
Your concern is admirable but rest assured that anything that looks as dramatic as you thought is not something that would go unnoticed
A330
CONFIGURATION DEVIATION LIST
Doors
CDL 52 (C) P12
SEQ
005
Rev 16
PART DESCRIPTION, NORMAL QTY,
REMARKS AND OR EXCEPTIONS
12. Fwd Cargo Door Access
Cover Panels Number installed 2
821AR – 821BR
All may be missing
The following performance penalties
must be applied.
Missing Takeoff One engine Fuel Consumption
Parts: Weight Net ceiling Penalty (%)
penalty Penalty (ft)
(%)
FWD + AFT 0.06 70 0.3
panels
(821AR +
821BR)
AFT panel 0.04 negligible 0.2
(821BR)
Notes:
When the AFT panel of the door is
missing (821BR), the FWD panel may
remain installed.
When the FWD panel of the door is
missing (821AR), the AFT panel should
be removed before next flight (821BR).
Items 52-12 and 52-13 may be missing simultaneously provided that performance
penalties are cumulated.
Sorry you've been flamed by a few intolerant people here on Pprune but rest assured that any bmi aircraft wouldn't depart transatlantic in an unsafe or illegal condition. The aircraft is given a full ETOPS check by extremely professional and highly experienced engineers prior to dispatch, the flight crew will do a thorough walk around check prior to accepting the aircraft (it's their arses out there at 30W if it all goes wrong after all!!!), and at the end of this chain are the ground crew who do a walk around, prior to pushing back the aircraft checking for loose and missing panels amongst other things and alert the crew if they find anything out of the ordinary.
Just so the engineers and flight crew know what is acceptable to have missing or damaged and what is not, they have a Minimum Equipment List and within this MEL is a section titled Configuration Deviation List (CDL). Under the structures section it details what can be missing and any performance penalties accrued. I've copied the relevant section below and as you can see 2 cover panels ( 1 fwd and 1 aft) are installed but none are needed for dispatch.
Your concern is admirable but rest assured that anything that looks as dramatic as you thought is not something that would go unnoticed
A330
CONFIGURATION DEVIATION LIST
Doors
CDL 52 (C) P12
SEQ
005
Rev 16
PART DESCRIPTION, NORMAL QTY,
REMARKS AND OR EXCEPTIONS
12. Fwd Cargo Door Access
Cover Panels Number installed 2
821AR – 821BR
All may be missing
The following performance penalties
must be applied.
Missing Takeoff One engine Fuel Consumption
Parts: Weight Net ceiling Penalty (%)
penalty Penalty (ft)
(%)
FWD + AFT 0.06 70 0.3
panels
(821AR +
821BR)
AFT panel 0.04 negligible 0.2
(821BR)
Notes:
When the AFT panel of the door is
missing (821BR), the FWD panel may
remain installed.
When the FWD panel of the door is
missing (821AR), the AFT panel should
be removed before next flight (821BR).
Items 52-12 and 52-13 may be missing simultaneously provided that performance
penalties are cumulated.
Last edited by K.Whyjelly; 27th May 2008 at 19:27. Reason: Layout
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: .
Posts: 2,995
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
330cdl
Here's a screen shot of the 330 CDL, as you can see perfectly acceptable to fly without panel in question.
I guess they were bothered as they knew what they were doing.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2008
Location: 550 steps from the airport pub
Age: 41
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@Jelly Thanks for the kind words and technical details...
@Spanner Thanks for diagram...It's nice to see every detail...Do they have these checklists for every single panel...is this what the pilot carried or is it an engineers paper...
Thanks for your trouble of scanning them up
I love to learn every part of aviation...
@Spanner Thanks for diagram...It's nice to see every detail...Do they have these checklists for every single panel...is this what the pilot carried or is it an engineers paper...
Thanks for your trouble of scanning them up
I love to learn every part of aviation...
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All angles covered in a hard back MEL running to 513 pages. From the biggest of items right down to a small Delrin underwing jacking point hole plug. Each aircraft carries its own copy of this Minimum Equipment List on board.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,914
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is a very bizarre thread thanks to Modelcuirstud.....sreally weird posting. He has managed to totally trash the ground engineers responsible for despatching the aircraft, aimed a barb at pilots who apparently don't do walkarounds or check their flight plans, and all because he thought he'd hit it big time with spotting a defect that wasn't being handled correctly by an engineering department he seems to have issues with?
Weird! Why can't people just post up a picture and ask? Instead of adding numerous comments and personal opinion! He totally provoked the responses he had- had I seen this in time, I would have responded the same way.
Weird! Why can't people just post up a picture and ask? Instead of adding numerous comments and personal opinion! He totally provoked the responses he had- had I seen this in time, I would have responded the same way.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Seoul
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A lot of it comes down to how you read it. When reading the OP first post I did not have a feeling of him trashing anyone or the airline. I actually took his comment about the ground staff to be a bit of a joke to himself along the lines of why am I (modelcuirstudios) so stupidly interested in something that these ground crew dont even care about.
If you read innocently, you see it innocently.
If you are looking to be insulted, you will see it.
Perhpas a good thing for all of us to remember in our lives.
If you read innocently, you see it innocently.
If you are looking to be insulted, you will see it.
Perhpas a good thing for all of us to remember in our lives.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2008
Location: 550 steps from the airport pub
Age: 41
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Firstly I didnt think engineers or dispatchers would have seen it as I thought maybe they dont see that side of the plane...I only thought there would just be baggage handlers and a security guy that would have seen it..
That security guy was chatting and just not doing anything but looking smug watching my every move as I had my camera...it was a smart alleck look for 5 mins...I just thought innocently that there was no staff that knew how serious the panel was...
I didnt think there would be engineers in general with any airline unless there was a need.etc...
That's why I posted sorry.
That security guy was chatting and just not doing anything but looking smug watching my every move as I had my camera...it was a smart alleck look for 5 mins...I just thought innocently that there was no staff that knew how serious the panel was...
I didnt think there would be engineers in general with any airline unless there was a need.etc...
That's why I posted sorry.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: OXF
Posts: 428
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Looks like certain engineers are getting all upset and cranky because someone dared, dared to question their working practices. Calling someone a prat online is stupid. You make yourself look like a complete, well, you know what (oh dear, did I just say that?) instead of the other person.
Now, as for the original post, I don't see ANY reference to BMI flying a damaged a/c illegally, I don't see any references to "OMG, I'm gonna tell the world press to ostracise those bad bad people at BMI" kind of scare that the two posters following up seemed to conjure up.
I distinctly recall seeing this:
That leads me to believe that the original poster is wondering whether it can be allowed to be flown like this. Which, according to several other great posters, it is.
So as much as you are the experts, at least show some courtesy when asked a question. I'm sure you don't call someone who asks you in person about whether that's a good or a bad thing a prat.
S.
Now, as for the original post, I don't see ANY reference to BMI flying a damaged a/c illegally, I don't see any references to "OMG, I'm gonna tell the world press to ostracise those bad bad people at BMI" kind of scare that the two posters following up seemed to conjure up.
I distinctly recall seeing this:
Offcourse if it's nothing I would love to be educated on how it fly's like this
So as much as you are the experts, at least show some courtesy when asked a question. I'm sure you don't call someone who asks you in person about whether that's a good or a bad thing a prat.
S.