Windy weather causes flight chaos
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Flybe DH-8 19/01 Midday landing in MAN
I like to give my admiration and congratulations to the crew of the Flybe Dash 8 which managed to land during those strong gale winds last Thursday whilst the BA Dash 8 all did go arounds during that period.
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in general: please note that going around is not a sign of inability and that continuing an approach is not always a good idea. a lot of accidents happen, when people push the limits instead of going around and giving it a fresh try.
during stormy days, like the ones just experienced, it's sometimes just a matter of luck, to get some kind of "hole" in the wind and gusts at the right moment.
during stormy days, like the ones just experienced, it's sometimes just a matter of luck, to get some kind of "hole" in the wind and gusts at the right moment.
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Congratulations from a Pratt
So, the BA Dash crews are all cowards! The captains on board had no b@lls. They have 4 times (on average) the time served on the aircraft type and 'chickened out'. They should have had a go because all the passengers and their relatives would still have had admiration (at the graveside) for them had it all gone wrong. The aircraft are different and are operated by different companies who also have different limitations. One af my flybe pals told me that in hindsight he was lucky, made a poor decision to continue and wished he had gone around. Generally, most pilots will do what they think is safe - not for the admiration or congratulations of a pratt!
Get a life
Get a life
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IMO no need for this post, Thumper:
Kin888 is either a non-knowing SLF with an all honest post up there, then FCS Explorer's post does the job already
or Kin888 and his post are an example of "the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions" - then all that's needed is to ignore his post
either way, your post is not useful (well again, that's IMHO)
Kin888 is either a non-knowing SLF with an all honest post up there, then FCS Explorer's post does the job already
or Kin888 and his post are an example of "the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions" - then all that's needed is to ignore his post
either way, your post is not useful (well again, that's IMHO)
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Sounds to me like they either got a lucky break with the weather, guessed right on how much to allow for or perhaps had less experience than the BA guys that know from that experience that being too close to the ground with unpredictable gusts is not safe.
I wonder what the tyres and landing gear thought of it all? Presumably it's good tyre-bursting weather with a nice high-speed sideways scrub and a heavy landing?
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Did 3 misses and a landing on a 738 into EGBB just a coupla days ago with winds showin cross for both runways 35 gustin 47kts.Now this was a delivery flight and i had nowhere to go....!! Rway was damp and very slippery.Think about that........Air India Express......hehehe.
Cheers matey.......
Sure needed a cold one........AND a dry set of pants for the good ol F.O..........
Cheers matey.......
Sure needed a cold one........AND a dry set of pants for the good ol F.O..........
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GA's at MAN
Sounds to me like they either got a lucky break with the weather
Exactly what happened at MAN.
We watched 6 GA's on the trot everything from TP's to 744's, wobbling
all over the place in time with the gusts. GA's initiated from various points in the approach.
For anyone who know's it we're the big office block on the right before the Pyramid so a good view from the 7th floor.
Then the PIA 777 followed by a BA TP straight in no wing rock at all.
1 minute later a Dragonair 74 GA's as does everything else IIRC for the next 10 min.
As SLF I'd rather a GA and be 20 min late than anything else.
Regards to all.
DaveA
{Edit: I seem to have lost the ability to type English}
I call you back
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A little info for the non-flyers. Most modern aircraft have a system which detects windsheer both as it occurs and in the area ahead of the aircraft.
A lot of companies have a mandatory go-around policy for a ' windsheer ' or ' windsheer ahead ' warning. With winds gusting into the 50s and 60s it is highly likely many aircraft will get such warnings.
Personally I disagree with the mandatory go-around policy. I landed in AMS while all the aircraft ahead went around due to w/s warnings. They probably had no discretion, I did and landed safely. BTW the wind was straight down the runway.
A lot of companies have a mandatory go-around policy for a ' windsheer ' or ' windsheer ahead ' warning. With winds gusting into the 50s and 60s it is highly likely many aircraft will get such warnings.
Personally I disagree with the mandatory go-around policy. I landed in AMS while all the aircraft ahead went around due to w/s warnings. They probably had no discretion, I did and landed safely. BTW the wind was straight down the runway.
But you could argue that 'discretion' leaves a particular situation open to personal interpretation and possibly an accident waiting to happen? What use SOPs if they are subject to 'discretion'? Just a thought.
There have been numerous crashes attributable to windsheer in the past.
Presumably the alarm only goes off above a certain level where proceeding could take the aircraft outside the capability of the pilot?
Presumably the alarm only goes off above a certain level where proceeding could take the aircraft outside the capability of the pilot?
Faire d'income.
Can you clarify what discretion you have. I can understand discretion with windshear ahead caution, but cannot believe that you can ignore a red windshear warning. The windshear ahead caution can be ignored in my company if you believe it is false, however I would hardly believe you could argue that last week.
Can you clarify what discretion you have. I can understand discretion with windshear ahead caution, but cannot believe that you can ignore a red windshear warning. The windshear ahead caution can be ignored in my company if you believe it is false, however I would hardly believe you could argue that last week.
I call you back
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Faire d'income.
Can you clarify what discretion you have. I can understand discretion with windshear ahead caution, but cannot believe that you can ignore a red windshear warning. The windshear ahead caution can be ignored in my company if you believe it is false, however I would hardly believe you could argue that last week.
Can you clarify what discretion you have. I can understand discretion with windshear ahead caution, but cannot believe that you can ignore a red windshear warning. The windshear ahead caution can be ignored in my company if you believe it is false, however I would hardly believe you could argue that last week.
The problem with last week of course is that because of the high gusts the predictive ' windsheer ahead ' could go off on every approach. No discretion could lead you into fuel problems.
Presumably the alarm only goes off above a certain level where proceeding could take the aircraft outside the capability of the pilot?
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Well, at some stage you have to ignore the SOP or run out of fuel... On the day (into LHR) I briefed that we would continue to make approaches until X fuel remaining and at that stage we would have to disregard a windshear warning because the alternative didn't bear thinking about. And yes, we made the decision that diverting into the unknown was a waste of precious fuel because all the alternates were presenting the same conditions. Fortunately after a windshear GA and an hour of mod/sev turbulence, we got in. Not a fun day - thank God it was down the runway.
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Good question.
I kept the four sets of weather I collected that morning (as evidence). On paper things didn't look so bad, but experience told me at the time that it was going to be a very rough ride. In fact it was the turbulence and gusts at altitude, not near the ground, that made things really horrible. You can deduce these from the forecast, but it is not an exact science. Go/no go information generally relates to weather on or about the runway.
There is commercial pressure and it's a fine line factoring in commander's discretion when things are marginal. It's nice when things are clear cut one way or the other, but so often they aren't. My collection of paper reveals screeds of calculations, crosswind components for alternates, etc. The base line is that the wind was more or less down the runway at destination and alternates, and although there was the chance it would get very gusty, it was generally within the aircraft limits. The company leaves gusts up to the commanders discretion, because the manufacturer won't give a definitive answer on the subject. So you go, because you don't really have a valid reason not to. At least not until someone braves it and reports how bad things are and convinces the powers that be. When you join the airlines, being 'a bit nervy today' is not a good enough excuse, although it's a bloody good personal litmus test...
I kept the four sets of weather I collected that morning (as evidence). On paper things didn't look so bad, but experience told me at the time that it was going to be a very rough ride. In fact it was the turbulence and gusts at altitude, not near the ground, that made things really horrible. You can deduce these from the forecast, but it is not an exact science. Go/no go information generally relates to weather on or about the runway.
There is commercial pressure and it's a fine line factoring in commander's discretion when things are marginal. It's nice when things are clear cut one way or the other, but so often they aren't. My collection of paper reveals screeds of calculations, crosswind components for alternates, etc. The base line is that the wind was more or less down the runway at destination and alternates, and although there was the chance it would get very gusty, it was generally within the aircraft limits. The company leaves gusts up to the commanders discretion, because the manufacturer won't give a definitive answer on the subject. So you go, because you don't really have a valid reason not to. At least not until someone braves it and reports how bad things are and convinces the powers that be. When you join the airlines, being 'a bit nervy today' is not a good enough excuse, although it's a bloody good personal litmus test...
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I'm always amazed at passengers responses when weather is bad.
I diverted from Faro once when the weather was crap, the aircraft ahead of us landed, but there was no way he could have possibly had the visual references legally required. Our passengers, once they'd discovered an aircraft had landed at Faro, proceeded to go on about how rubbish we, as a crew, were, because we didn't get in.
I later bumped into that Captain and he admitted he hadn't seen the runway at decision point, but "knew where he was, as he could see a glimpse of the sea to the side" so continued!
Now, I know which flight I would rather have been on as a passenger!
I diverted from Faro once when the weather was crap, the aircraft ahead of us landed, but there was no way he could have possibly had the visual references legally required. Our passengers, once they'd discovered an aircraft had landed at Faro, proceeded to go on about how rubbish we, as a crew, were, because we didn't get in.
I later bumped into that Captain and he admitted he hadn't seen the runway at decision point, but "knew where he was, as he could see a glimpse of the sea to the side" so continued!
Now, I know which flight I would rather have been on as a passenger!
Humus Motor
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Airbus Girl, how very true. A colleague of mine, holding over an airport which was below minima in shallow fog got a handwritten note passed forward .. (a handwritten note for God's sake! ) .... from a "Company Director" whose "time was money" ... he "could see the runway perfectly plainly, so why are you fooling around up here?" !!!! My colleague (who was the DFO at the time) sent his hat back with an invitation to put it on, proceed to the flight deck and swap seats with him. 
The response was a deafening silence.
But, conversely, I once delayed take-off for a big thunderstorm just off the upwind end, and a certain airline overtook me, took off - and got very publicly struck by lightning just after rotation. Quite a number of passengers on that side of the aircraft saw this very clearly and many told the Cabin Crew how glad they were that we had held off for a while.
My colleague (who was the DFO at the time) sent his hat back with an invitation to put it on, proceed to the flight deck and swap seats with him. The response was a deafening silence.But, conversely, I once delayed take-off for a big thunderstorm just off the upwind end, and a certain airline overtook me, took off - and got very publicly struck by lightning just after rotation. Quite a number of passengers on that side of the aircraft saw this very clearly and many told the Cabin Crew how glad they were that we had held off for a while.