Interesting Approach
Tabs please !
If you were in a twotter and the FO was a very pretty girlie then you have nothing to worry about. She is a terrific wee pilot who is an absolute stickler for the rule book. I should know, she used to rap my knuckles for turning a whole second early in the circuit 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: New South Wales
Posts: 1,794
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Surrey
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I well remember about 30 years ago flying SLF in a Trident to Madrid.
We were held for what seemed ages south of the field. When released, for landing in the southerly direction, we were taken downwind at about 1000' to the west of the runway. I was fortunate to be in a right hand window seat.
I swear that as we passed the landing threshold going North, we commenced our final descent in a fairly steep right hand turn, with me being interested in the wing tip clearance with the ground. We only levelled out a few seconds before touch down.
My reaction was the opposite. What lovely flying, I hadn't known that BA (BEA at that time?) pilots could have such fun! Mind you, I was only a PPL.
MikeJ
We were held for what seemed ages south of the field. When released, for landing in the southerly direction, we were taken downwind at about 1000' to the west of the runway. I was fortunate to be in a right hand window seat.
I swear that as we passed the landing threshold going North, we commenced our final descent in a fairly steep right hand turn, with me being interested in the wing tip clearance with the ground. We only levelled out a few seconds before touch down.
My reaction was the opposite. What lovely flying, I hadn't known that BA (BEA at that time?) pilots could have such fun! Mind you, I was only a PPL.
MikeJ
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 510
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am not going to reveal places, types, times, etc, even via PM. I am not out for a witch hunt. Maybe the approach was within the Ops manual, maybe it wasn't - that is not going to be resolved here and to be honest I don't care if it was or not. My point is simply this - why do tight approaches when a more sedate one would have done the job?
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 185
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am not out for a witch hunt
why do tight approaches when a more sedate one would have done the job
Whether the approach was ops manual or not could easily be solved here, but now you don't want to even name the airfield, so how can we?
With that in mind, what did you actually hope to achieve by this post? Or are you just doing a spot of fishing?
de minimus non curat lex
Droopystop
Unless you are prepared to name the airfield, how will you know whether a "tight approach" is a valid technique and complies with the SOPs for that runway.
Other factors may also have justified the style of approach on the day.
You seem to lacking the big picture based on what you have said so far.
What is the point of starting a topic without being prepared to disclose sufficient information to start a meaningful debate.
You may hold a professional licence, but do you know anything about operating in anger.... I think we should be told !!
Unless you are prepared to name the airfield, how will you know whether a "tight approach" is a valid technique and complies with the SOPs for that runway.
Other factors may also have justified the style of approach on the day.
You seem to lacking the big picture based on what you have said so far.
What is the point of starting a topic without being prepared to disclose sufficient information to start a meaningful debate.
You may hold a professional licence, but do you know anything about operating in anger.... I think we should be told !!
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Scotland
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I fly for the Airline that you seem to mention...is it bad luck for pilots to say 'Loganair' in the same way that actors have to call Macbeth 'the Scottish Play'?? As I was working this weekend I'd be happy to 'fess up if it was one of my sectors to which you are referring. You mention in your post that you're not out for a 'witch-hunt' (hang on, this was posted on Halloween...is this a wind-up?)....however, I would suggest that in the interests of safety we should pursue the matter as clearly, in your learned opinion, this crew carried out a dangerous approach. Have you filed an ASR? Did you speak to the Captain?
"why do tight approaches when a more sedate one would have done the job?"
How do you know what would or wouldn't have done the job? I think you should have the bollocks to respond properly to the questions raised in these replies, rather than claiming "that is not going to be resolved here and to be honest I don't care if it was or not". Suddenly you don't care, after getting all Nigel about the tight approach.
"why do tight approaches when a more sedate one would have done the job?"
How do you know what would or wouldn't have done the job? I think you should have the bollocks to respond properly to the questions raised in these replies, rather than claiming "that is not going to be resolved here and to be honest I don't care if it was or not". Suddenly you don't care, after getting all Nigel about the tight approach.
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Age: 61
Posts: 1,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Poor old Droopystop! Ask an innocent question eh? Sounds like Stornoway then, and possibly a late offer to the crew of an alternative runway for one reason or another. Loganair SOPs probably allow for a little more flexibility than jet airlines in the execution of a visual approach and what you describe sounds like it was within limits. What I will say is that there is constant training going on at the moment so minor misjudgements may happen, and it may be that to continue in that case is safer than going around with a new F/O in the RHS. All flights are data monitored by the way and if it was very iffy the crew may be spoken to quietly anyway. In answer to your last questions, no - no pressure to cut corners (apart from normal ops requests to get going NOW NOW NOW), and complaining would probably not serve much purpose for the above reasons.
Was it a nice landing by the way? If so it wasn't me
.
Was it a nice landing by the way? If so it wasn't me
.
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: sector 001
Posts: 384
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As DB6 has pointed out Saab is not a jet. It is after all a light aircraft, and provided on a visual approach you are stable, wing levels by 300ft AAL latest, where does the problem lie?
When flying into Sumburgh, landing runway 33, it is not possible to be wings level until about 10 seconds before touchdown.
Loganair pilots are therefore well versed in flying tight approaches quite safely.
When flying into Sumburgh, landing runway 33, it is not possible to be wings level until about 10 seconds before touchdown.
Loganair pilots are therefore well versed in flying tight approaches quite safely.
Last edited by ecj; 1st Nov 2006 at 12:01.
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: SSE of smoki
Posts: 223
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi,
you asked the question, should you complain to the Airline.
Well, i feel there would be nothing to gain from doing so because as mentioned above by DB6, there will be some form of onboard monitoring, which will flag any exceedance if stabilisation criteria is not met.
Any exceedance occuring should however be dealt with by carrying out a go around.
If the crew elected to continue de stabilised then it wil be dealt with in house as deemed neccessary.
In the company i work for, on certain approaches, we have a 500ft cut off point, with a requirement for the wings to be level by 300ft AAL.
I would also imagine that there is no pressure being applied to crews to cut corners in the company mentioned above.
Rgds.
you asked the question, should you complain to the Airline.
Well, i feel there would be nothing to gain from doing so because as mentioned above by DB6, there will be some form of onboard monitoring, which will flag any exceedance if stabilisation criteria is not met.
Any exceedance occuring should however be dealt with by carrying out a go around.
If the crew elected to continue de stabilised then it wil be dealt with in house as deemed neccessary.
In the company i work for, on certain approaches, we have a 500ft cut off point, with a requirement for the wings to be level by 300ft AAL.
I would also imagine that there is no pressure being applied to crews to cut corners in the company mentioned above.
Rgds.
Last edited by Khaosai; 1st Nov 2006 at 10:28. Reason: spelling
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: UK NE Scotland
Age: 59
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As a regular pax on the Flightline 146's to Scatsta we once diverted to Sumburgh and landed on 33 - that was somewhat impressive, just a good thing the lady at the local farm on the final turn didn't have any washing hung out or she'd have lost the lot on the tip of the wing...
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Westward TV
Posts: 412
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Should I complain to the airline?
Going over what you have said here, there are only two airfields oop norf that have published cloud break procedures. Sumburgh and Stornoway. If you have never been in an aircraft doing the 33 arrival at Sumburgh, it is impressive. Most pilots tend to hug the hill line as this give them the more room to maneouver. And yes, you rarely get the wings level until 10 seconds to touchdown. All SOP for operating into this airfield.
If you don't like the approach, just close your eyes and wait for the thud. That's what I do.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: EGPB/EGPD
Posts: 135
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sumburgh
Hello there,
As I live in Shetland I might be able to help a bit.
Here is a picture as we fly past RWY33 and "the hill"
I did draw an arrow to show you were RWY33 is in relation to the hill.
I hope this illustrates the approach into RWY33 a bit better.
Cheers,
Shetlander
As I live in Shetland I might be able to help a bit.
Here is a picture as we fly past RWY33 and "the hill"
I did draw an arrow to show you were RWY33 is in relation to the hill.
I hope this illustrates the approach into RWY33 a bit better.
Cheers,
Shetlander
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: UK NE Scotland
Age: 59
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nice piccie Shetlander, must be summertime in that photo
Worth pointing out that directly to the left of the aircraft just out of the photo is the lighthouse. Approach for ATP, ATR 72 and 146 (never done it in the Saab but assume t'would be the same) is to approach with the lighthouse and the arrowed hill to the RHS of the aircraft, heightwise usually slightly above the lighthouse but by the time you reach the hill the aircraft is about level with the crest of the hill, sharp left and touchdown. Islander can probably do a straight approach over the crest of the hill
Worth pointing out that directly to the left of the aircraft just out of the photo is the lighthouse. Approach for ATP, ATR 72 and 146 (never done it in the Saab but assume t'would be the same) is to approach with the lighthouse and the arrowed hill to the RHS of the aircraft, heightwise usually slightly above the lighthouse but by the time you reach the hill the aircraft is about level with the crest of the hill, sharp left and touchdown. Islander can probably do a straight approach over the crest of the hill
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Land of the Northern Lights
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sumburgh 33 landings
Shetlander thats a good picture of Sumburgh but a bit misleading. Aircraft making an approach to 33 normally come in from a tight left base. They would normally come inside the lighthouse hill, you can see a bit of it in the far left of the picture hidden by the wing strut. The hill you have the arrow pointing at would be on your right as you make the turn for the threshold.
It is a demanding approach which can be made harder by the weather conditions. It can be interesting to watch, but so can any of the approaches during the stormy season (which only lasts about 10 months!!).
I can assure you that the Loganair pilots that fly to Sumburgh fly that approach on a regular basis and do so safely.
During poor vis or low clould it is not unusual for aircraft to fly the 09Loc approach before breaking for Rw15 once visual. Again this involves a late(ish) turn which may seem strange to someone sat down the back.
As someone who sits on their backside looking out of a goldfish bowl as these planes pass by in all sorts of weather I have the greatest of respect for the pilots that fly into Sumburgh.
It is a demanding approach which can be made harder by the weather conditions. It can be interesting to watch, but so can any of the approaches during the stormy season (which only lasts about 10 months!!).
I can assure you that the Loganair pilots that fly to Sumburgh fly that approach on a regular basis and do so safely.
During poor vis or low clould it is not unusual for aircraft to fly the 09Loc approach before breaking for Rw15 once visual. Again this involves a late(ish) turn which may seem strange to someone sat down the back.
As someone who sits on their backside looking out of a goldfish bowl as these planes pass by in all sorts of weather I have the greatest of respect for the pilots that fly into Sumburgh.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: UK NE Scotland
Age: 59
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: EGPB/EGPD
Posts: 135
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sumburgh
Hello Again,
With reference to what "Report@Boddam" said,
I maybe should have pointed out that I wasn’t actually going to land on RWY33.
I was actually cleared to land on RWY27 and as I was approaching from the south I decided to go Behind the hill.
To then turn final for RWY27. Sumburgh Airport and HIAL have just invested in a multi - million pound Runway extension on the RWY27/09.
The picture below shows the new extension completed. This extension is to allow greater flexibility for the Loganair Saab 340’s and also BAe 146’s that may venture into Sumburgh.
I would also like to say how good it is to get involved in a discussion on here, especially when its about your local airport
As some of you might have seen this is an incident that happened in Shetland just yesterday,
Its worth checking out lol::
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=250438
Cheers,
Shetlander
With reference to what "Report@Boddam" said,
I maybe should have pointed out that I wasn’t actually going to land on RWY33.
I was actually cleared to land on RWY27 and as I was approaching from the south I decided to go Behind the hill.
To then turn final for RWY27. Sumburgh Airport and HIAL have just invested in a multi - million pound Runway extension on the RWY27/09.
The picture below shows the new extension completed. This extension is to allow greater flexibility for the Loganair Saab 340’s and also BAe 146’s that may venture into Sumburgh.
I would also like to say how good it is to get involved in a discussion on here, especially when its about your local airport
As some of you might have seen this is an incident that happened in Shetland just yesterday,
Its worth checking out lol::
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=250438
Cheers,
Shetlander
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 185
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Report@Boddam -
It's nice to hear that now and again, as opposed to the "F*%king Cowboys" comments that we usually get! 
I have the greatest of respect for the pilots that fly into Sumburgh