Airbus admits further delay on A380
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Airbus keeps talking/not talking about the 350.
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Boeing looking at ramping up production of 787, think the numbers mentioned were upto 14/16 aircraft per month or poss more, am sure Boeing are planning production numbers to make the 350 have a hard time.
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Airbus should focus on the 380, 320 and 320NG, make some more 330/340 and 350 if they can sell em cheap enough.
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Boeing looking at ramping up production of 787, think the numbers mentioned were upto 14/16 aircraft per month or poss more, am sure Boeing are planning production numbers to make the 350 have a hard time.
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Airbus should focus on the 380, 320 and 320NG, make some more 330/340 and 350 if they can sell em cheap enough.
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I'm willing to wager that the long debated 50/50 market split will be at least 60/40 in favour of Boeing before long.
"What happends when the public thinks a bank is going bankrupt...?"
Airbus would do good in folding the 340 line double plus quick. Who in a right state of mind would order a 340 today?
"What happends when the public thinks a bank is going bankrupt...?"
Airbus would do good in folding the 340 line double plus quick. Who in a right state of mind would order a 340 today?
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Wiring ??? - - Questionable cause for A380 delays.
Despite delays and weight issues, I am entirely impressed with the A380. Once airlines get hold of them and start building some CASM numbers and the like and depending on how those figures add up, more carriers may order additional copies of these super jumbos.
That said..................:
I find it incredibly hard to believe the following is true:
1. Cabin Electrical wiring could delay aircraft production for nearly 1 year.
2. The parent, EADS (and M. Noel), was completely out of the loop on these difficulties.
3. Customers are to blame for the wiring issues and production delays.
Had this been a North American endeavor using taxpayer dollars, the media would be in full feeding frenzy mode regarding the above and would not let go until the truth - all of it - was told.
Hats off to Airbus for their thus far masterful handling of the world press.
Can they keep this up ?
That said..................:
I find it incredibly hard to believe the following is true:
1. Cabin Electrical wiring could delay aircraft production for nearly 1 year.
2. The parent, EADS (and M. Noel), was completely out of the loop on these difficulties.
3. Customers are to blame for the wiring issues and production delays.
Had this been a North American endeavor using taxpayer dollars, the media would be in full feeding frenzy mode regarding the above and would not let go until the truth - all of it - was told.
Hats off to Airbus for their thus far masterful handling of the world press.
Can they keep this up ?
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The 747 also had a difficult birth remember, those big new engines being a real headache in reliability terms. I'm sure once the teething troubles are out of the way then the A380 will be just fine, although I still think it looks like an aerial version of Jonny Vegas.
That said, the 747 revolutionised air travel. The A380 just means you share fart laden air with 500+ bodies as opposed to 450. Does that really appeal???
That said, the 747 revolutionised air travel. The A380 just means you share fart laden air with 500+ bodies as opposed to 450. Does that really appeal???
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The lateness of the A380 is neither here nor there. All new aircraft are late in one way or another.
Insider dealing is another matter altogether. When tarnished with that particular brush company execs often have diffiiclty recovering credibility.
Insider dealing is another matter altogether. When tarnished with that particular brush company execs often have diffiiclty recovering credibility.
Too mean to buy a long personal title
Originally Posted by Wino
While you are right about the percentage of 747 at LHR, what you and I don't know the answer to is the percentage of traffic there that is O and D (originating and departing) vs what is connecting. Everything that is connecting is at risk to an aircraft that can fly non stop between the two end points for the traveler. I bet ORAC can find the O and D question for us.
...
PS. The 777 is a lot smaller than you think. Typical 3 class seating on the 747 is 416 pax. 777-200 is 300pax. The 300 around 350 in 3 class seating. (these facts are from the boeing web site). Again the reason that airlines are using it as a replacement is that it is SMALLER yet can connect the two points.
...
PS. The 777 is a lot smaller than you think. Typical 3 class seating on the 747 is 416 pax. 777-200 is 300pax. The 300 around 350 in 3 class seating. (these facts are from the boeing web site). Again the reason that airlines are using it as a replacement is that it is SMALLER yet can connect the two points.
As for the 777, it's obviously smaller than the 744. But as I understand it, some airlines are taking the 777 as a replacement for the earlier-model 747s that have had to be retired. I don't think the payload (headcount) difference is quite as big? But I may be mistaken.
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From the Monday June 19th, TheTimes:
How the superjet designed to unite Europe is now tearing it apart
From Adam Sage in Paris
....
But today the A380 has become a symbol of all that is wrong with Europe — incompetence, misplaced ambition, greed and bickering.
Far from uniting Europe, it is driving a wedge between France and Germany, with Berlin complaining of the French penchant for state intervention and cronyism, and Paris debnouncing Germans’ stiffling desire for concensus.
....
But as stock market watchdogs in France and Germany announced inquiries and Eads started an internal investigation, the line of defence adopted by M Forgeard has provoked a deep rift with Germany.
He is blaming German factories for the delays, German middle-management for the confusion and the German head of Airbus, Gustav Humbert, for failing to alert investors earlier.
The French are also briefing journalists that bumbling German Airbus engineers still use pen and paper because they are uncomfortable with computers.
From Adam Sage in Paris
....
But today the A380 has become a symbol of all that is wrong with Europe — incompetence, misplaced ambition, greed and bickering.
Far from uniting Europe, it is driving a wedge between France and Germany, with Berlin complaining of the French penchant for state intervention and cronyism, and Paris debnouncing Germans’ stiffling desire for concensus.
....
But as stock market watchdogs in France and Germany announced inquiries and Eads started an internal investigation, the line of defence adopted by M Forgeard has provoked a deep rift with Germany.
He is blaming German factories for the delays, German middle-management for the confusion and the German head of Airbus, Gustav Humbert, for failing to alert investors earlier.
The French are also briefing journalists that bumbling German Airbus engineers still use pen and paper because they are uncomfortable with computers.
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More woes for Airbus.
Germany asks Forgeard to quit as EADS co-CEO: report
FRANKFURT (AFP) - German shareholders of EADS asked Noel Forgeard to quit as co-chief executive of the European aerospace group at a meeting in Munich, but the Frenchman refused, the business daily Handelsblatt reported.
DaimlerChrysler, which holds a stake in the European Aeronautics Defence and Space Company, declined to comment on the report.
But EADS denied it.
"We firmly deny the report," said EADS spokesman Michael Hauger.
Forgeard is under fire as a result of the revelation of delays in delivery of the giant A380 aircraft, made by EADS' Airbus unit, and the controversy over large-scale selling of EADS shares by the Frenchman and other top group officials.
Sources familiar with the matter said that the co-heads of the supervisory baord, Arnaud Lagardere and Manfred Bischoff, and the two co-CEOs, Noel Forgeard and Thomas Enders, attended the meeting in Munich on Monday.
Officially, the group said that no decision was reached at the meeting.
"It was a working meeting to discuss the situation and to find ways of avoiding such delays again in the future," the EADS spokesman said.
Similar meetings would be held in the coming weeks, he added.
It was not a matter of "pointing fingers", the spokesman insisted.
FRANKFURT (AFP) - German shareholders of EADS asked Noel Forgeard to quit as co-chief executive of the European aerospace group at a meeting in Munich, but the Frenchman refused, the business daily Handelsblatt reported.
DaimlerChrysler, which holds a stake in the European Aeronautics Defence and Space Company, declined to comment on the report.
But EADS denied it.
"We firmly deny the report," said EADS spokesman Michael Hauger.
Forgeard is under fire as a result of the revelation of delays in delivery of the giant A380 aircraft, made by EADS' Airbus unit, and the controversy over large-scale selling of EADS shares by the Frenchman and other top group officials.
Sources familiar with the matter said that the co-heads of the supervisory baord, Arnaud Lagardere and Manfred Bischoff, and the two co-CEOs, Noel Forgeard and Thomas Enders, attended the meeting in Munich on Monday.
Officially, the group said that no decision was reached at the meeting.
"It was a working meeting to discuss the situation and to find ways of avoiding such delays again in the future," the EADS spokesman said.
Similar meetings would be held in the coming weeks, he added.
It was not a matter of "pointing fingers", the spokesman insisted.
Bear Behind
Wino, you're damn right that pac want to fly point-to-point. The way I see it though, there are 2 flaws in your plan:
1) Slot constrained airports (LHR, CDG, FRA, HKG, SIN etc.). The only way is with a bigger aircraft.
2) Let's say I want to go from, oh Humberside to Phoenix, say. How many other people want to do the same? So how much traffic, and at what yield, would there be? If we come down to it, then the ideal machine is a 737 or an A319 with the range to operate such routes. Then how many other aiports start to become slot constrained?
It's all very well saying that people want to fly point to point. It's true. I'd love not to have to make 2 stops from HUY to Sky Harbor. But there are finite airports with finite slots and finite ATC and airway capacity.
And we haven't even touched on the green-ness of a 757 vs an A380...
1) Slot constrained airports (LHR, CDG, FRA, HKG, SIN etc.). The only way is with a bigger aircraft.
2) Let's say I want to go from, oh Humberside to Phoenix, say. How many other people want to do the same? So how much traffic, and at what yield, would there be? If we come down to it, then the ideal machine is a 737 or an A319 with the range to operate such routes. Then how many other aiports start to become slot constrained?
It's all very well saying that people want to fly point to point. It's true. I'd love not to have to make 2 stops from HUY to Sky Harbor. But there are finite airports with finite slots and finite ATC and airway capacity.
And we haven't even touched on the green-ness of a 757 vs an A380...
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One thing I find very interesting in all this is the way the non-technical press present things. When you read an article you can often see the reporter trying to put some technical issue (wiring in the A380, the flaws in the production method for the 787 fuselage) into a much larger context, where it might not fit at all.
When they do that, as seems now to be happening with Airbus, then it can create a real problem, something like a 'run on the bank.' All the other reporters don't want to be seen missing out on whatever is happening so that they start spinning away like a Chinese circus act, when chaos ensues.
For M. Forgeard to have cashed in some of his shares, well, what was he thinking there? 'Show me the money!' of course, but what lousy timing!
Either he now looks like an opportunist or perhaps a crook or else although he's the head of the company he had no idea at all about these serious production issues. In fact, he was just quoted saying something along those lines, that he would rather look incompetent than dishonest. You would have thought he'd know enough to either take the financial hit or else cash in his chips and leave the table, resign.
Perhaps they do things differently in France, since it is another country, but the States just got through dealing with a lot of 'grands fromages' who were caught taking advantage. There was Martha Stewart, a nobody in financial terms but a household icon, caught doing insider dealing and sent away to make license plates. Then we had Skilling and Lay of Enron fame, just convicted and awaiting sentencing. This is not the time to give even the slightest hint of opportunism, is it?
When they do that, as seems now to be happening with Airbus, then it can create a real problem, something like a 'run on the bank.' All the other reporters don't want to be seen missing out on whatever is happening so that they start spinning away like a Chinese circus act, when chaos ensues.
For M. Forgeard to have cashed in some of his shares, well, what was he thinking there? 'Show me the money!' of course, but what lousy timing!
Either he now looks like an opportunist or perhaps a crook or else although he's the head of the company he had no idea at all about these serious production issues. In fact, he was just quoted saying something along those lines, that he would rather look incompetent than dishonest. You would have thought he'd know enough to either take the financial hit or else cash in his chips and leave the table, resign.
Perhaps they do things differently in France, since it is another country, but the States just got through dealing with a lot of 'grands fromages' who were caught taking advantage. There was Martha Stewart, a nobody in financial terms but a household icon, caught doing insider dealing and sent away to make license plates. Then we had Skilling and Lay of Enron fame, just convicted and awaiting sentencing. This is not the time to give even the slightest hint of opportunism, is it?
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Originally Posted by chuks
One thing I find very interesting in all this is the way the non-technical press present things. When you read an article you can often see the reporter trying to put some technical issue (wiring in the A380, the flaws in the production method for the 787 fuselage) into a much larger context, where it might not fit at all.
When they do that, as seems now to be happening with Airbus, then it can create a real problem, something like a 'run on the bank.' All the other reporters don't want to be seen missing out on whatever is happening so that they start spinning away like a Chinese circus act, when chaos ensues.
For M. Forgeard to have cashed in some of his shares, well, what was he thinking there? 'Show me the money!' of course, but what lousy timing!
Either he now looks like an opportunist or perhaps a crook or else although he's the head of the company he had no idea at all about these serious production issues. In fact, he was just quoted saying something along those lines, that he would rather look incompetent than dishonest. You would have thought he'd know enough to either take the financial hit or else cash in his chips and leave the table, resign.
When they do that, as seems now to be happening with Airbus, then it can create a real problem, something like a 'run on the bank.' All the other reporters don't want to be seen missing out on whatever is happening so that they start spinning away like a Chinese circus act, when chaos ensues.
For M. Forgeard to have cashed in some of his shares, well, what was he thinking there? 'Show me the money!' of course, but what lousy timing!
Either he now looks like an opportunist or perhaps a crook or else although he's the head of the company he had no idea at all about these serious production issues. In fact, he was just quoted saying something along those lines, that he would rather look incompetent than dishonest. You would have thought he'd know enough to either take the financial hit or else cash in his chips and leave the table, resign.
Originally Posted by chuks
Perhaps they do things differently in France, since it is another country, but the States just got through dealing with a lot of 'grands fromages' who were caught taking advantage. There was Martha Stewart, a nobody in financial terms but a household icon, caught doing insider dealing and sent away to make license plates. Then we had Skilling and Lay of Enron fame, just convicted and awaiting sentencing. This is not the time to give even the slightest hint of opportunism, is it?
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. There was Martha Stewart, a nobody in financial terms but a household icon, caught doing insider dealing and sent away to make license plates.
Yes, limited slot-to-slot traffic on some routes translates into "fill the buses as big as they can get", but on the scale of things, how many routes like that are there in the world? Is it big enough to make money on?
There's other concerns with the A380 Skytanic. Dunno if any of you have noticed, but fuel prices have been going up. Some time in the next 15 years, we'll be hitting peak oil production, and with it, high fuel prices. Airbus' economic model for the A380 is based on the assumption that Air Transport is going to increase across the life (hence the need to get those slots in Asia). As energy prices soar, air traffic will decrease. And with energy prices go the prices of landing rights. Moreover, any sensible corporate plan for an aviation company must assess the threat of limitations on carbon emissions (greenhouse gases). These factors may limit the attractiveness of the "Hub-and-Spoke" system that is the backbone of many airlines today.
After all, what is a hub to a passenger? It is a place he didn't want to go to and can't wait to leave, but will put up with for a much cheaper ticket.
The A380 is an aircraft that's built around the "Hub-and-Spoke" model (Hub-to-Hub, to be exact). I'm not saying Hubs will go away, or lose their importance, but the folks who buy the planes need to consider things like cost and market before committing to something as big and expensive as the A380.
But the news is extremely damaging. It comes out, and there are intimations that upper levels of the corporation are squabbling while the managers are a bunch of hand-picked Yes-men who ignore the physically possible in favor of what will get them their promotion. Can things really be that bad?
Then the reaction of Forgeard and crew confirms our suspicion: they start finger-pointing at each other, alleging that fault lies in the other side's ignorance of what was actually going on in the company.
So we're left wondering: how many other surprises does Airbus have? Or should we just put on our Ville Rose-Coloured glasses and say the delays don't amount to much?
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Channel 4 coverage of French Parliment scrap over A380
The French Parliment erupted in near chaos today, with accusations being lobbed regarding the Airbus snafu - where the PM called Mr. Hollande's request to oust Forgeard 'Cowardice'. The French government will look at more direct control of EADS now, which won't sit very well with the German government.
Channel 4 Link
In related news, ILFC chairman Stephen Udvar-Hazy announced that his company may cancel orders for 10 A380s and would also cancel the A350 orders if Airbus does not offer something more concrete by Farnborough. Responding to ILFC's comments, an Airbus spokeswoman told Reuters she had "no information" about any plans by ILFC to change its orders.
Malaysia Airlines is also planning to cancel A380 orders. (or were they just commits for 6 ?)
(EDIT: This already mentioned above by HectorusRex) - - And finally, according to German media, M. Forgeard was asked to step down from EADS by major shareholders due to the program delays and his questionable (but highly profitable) stock sale back in late March. Recently, I read (here) that the head of Daimler/Chrysler called M. Foregeard a pathological liar.
Perhaps a change at the top would be a good confidence building move by EADS ?
Anyone recall Lockheed's difficult launch of the Tri-Star ?
Channel 4 Link
In related news, ILFC chairman Stephen Udvar-Hazy announced that his company may cancel orders for 10 A380s and would also cancel the A350 orders if Airbus does not offer something more concrete by Farnborough. Responding to ILFC's comments, an Airbus spokeswoman told Reuters she had "no information" about any plans by ILFC to change its orders.
Malaysia Airlines is also planning to cancel A380 orders. (or were they just commits for 6 ?)
(EDIT: This already mentioned above by HectorusRex) - - And finally, according to German media, M. Forgeard was asked to step down from EADS by major shareholders due to the program delays and his questionable (but highly profitable) stock sale back in late March. Recently, I read (here) that the head of Daimler/Chrysler called M. Foregeard a pathological liar.
Perhaps a change at the top would be a good confidence building move by EADS ?
Anyone recall Lockheed's difficult launch of the Tri-Star ?
Last edited by vapilot2004; 20th Jun 2006 at 23:07.
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Going back to the late nineties,Airbus were going to offer a baby 330.It was originally going to be called a 330-100 and was to be about A300 size, but this was changed because Hazy didn't like it.He believed that any -100 model has never done as well as the rest of the family.The aircraft was eventually shelved.It would compete quite well with a dreamliner though!!
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Dinger,
I think your economic reasoning is flawed.
As you say fuel prices are going up and if (and its a big if) fuel production peaks in the next 15 years then this is a plus for the A380, not a minus.
It becomes less economical to operate point to point services with smaller airplanes with higher seat/km costs then the A380.
You are right about the decrease in traffic due to higher energy costs, this shows that the large a/c with the lower seat/lm costs will win out,less frequency, full a/c means lower costs and the hub and spoke system is here to stay.
I think your economic reasoning is flawed.
As you say fuel prices are going up and if (and its a big if) fuel production peaks in the next 15 years then this is a plus for the A380, not a minus.
It becomes less economical to operate point to point services with smaller airplanes with higher seat/km costs then the A380.
You are right about the decrease in traffic due to higher energy costs, this shows that the large a/c with the lower seat/lm costs will win out,less frequency, full a/c means lower costs and the hub and spoke system is here to stay.
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true -- the bigger the plane, the bigger the theoretical fuel economy.
In general.
But given two jets the same size, the one with four engines is going to be less efficient than the twin.
And when you have a big plane, you only realize those economies when you fill it up.
Smaller aircraft give you discrete numbers to play with. If 3 787s can carry the same load as 1 A380, and the seat mile cost is similar - the choice is easy. You can always cancel two of the three flights in a day.
But we'll see. I'm perfectly willing to have my dubious economic theories disproven.
But if I could condense the blather into a basic point, it would this:
The A380's success hinges upon a series of predictions about the future of air travel coming true. There are factors out there that suggest such predictions may not come true. As evidence comes out that the future will be different from Airbus' vision, the appeal of the A380 drops off. Add in the current setbacks and even greater perceived risk about the A380, and the chances of EADS losing its corporate shirt on this one are pretty good.
By the way, the L1011 is still the best widebody ever built.
In general.
But given two jets the same size, the one with four engines is going to be less efficient than the twin.
And when you have a big plane, you only realize those economies when you fill it up.
Smaller aircraft give you discrete numbers to play with. If 3 787s can carry the same load as 1 A380, and the seat mile cost is similar - the choice is easy. You can always cancel two of the three flights in a day.
But we'll see. I'm perfectly willing to have my dubious economic theories disproven.
But if I could condense the blather into a basic point, it would this:
The A380's success hinges upon a series of predictions about the future of air travel coming true. There are factors out there that suggest such predictions may not come true. As evidence comes out that the future will be different from Airbus' vision, the appeal of the A380 drops off. Add in the current setbacks and even greater perceived risk about the A380, and the chances of EADS losing its corporate shirt on this one are pretty good.
By the way, the L1011 is still the best widebody ever built.
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Why not look for a realistic argument
There is a valid argument for Airbus to say that the expansion in the Middle East is too fast and that they are not ready for a plane like the A380.
Clear cut to the bone Safety oversight may well prove this and give the EU a clear backup argument to sort out the Airbus late deliveries to EK and their brothers.
If needed they may even pay for some compensation.
It could be a step forward if this kind of reasoning within the EU would actualy materialise.
If the Arabs manipulate their reports why should the EU not do the same?
I am sure the FAA would break their neck over proving a valid argument against it.
Clear cut to the bone Safety oversight may well prove this and give the EU a clear backup argument to sort out the Airbus late deliveries to EK and their brothers.
If needed they may even pay for some compensation.
It could be a step forward if this kind of reasoning within the EU would actualy materialise.
If the Arabs manipulate their reports why should the EU not do the same?
I am sure the FAA would break their neck over proving a valid argument against it.
No. Forget the A380 and stick with the 747. No forget the 747, it's rubbish. The 707 was better. No it was crap, the Constellation was way better. No, really only the DC3 was any good.
The A380 will (as ILFC says) be a world beater. It will revolutionise the way we travel forever. Teething troubles are standard and there will be more. None of this will change reality.
Boeing better get their act together with a 747 replacement if they don't want to go the way of Lockheed and Douglas. The 787 is better than the current A350 but that wont be enough to save Boeing in the long term. Just my thoughts.
The A380 will (as ILFC says) be a world beater. It will revolutionise the way we travel forever. Teething troubles are standard and there will be more. None of this will change reality.
Boeing better get their act together with a 747 replacement if they don't want to go the way of Lockheed and Douglas. The 787 is better than the current A350 but that wont be enough to save Boeing in the long term. Just my thoughts.
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Originally Posted by Al E. Vator
The A380 will (as ILFC says) be a world beater. It will revolutionise the way we travel forever..
REALLY?
Today ILFC was talking about canceling their order...
Don't forget Concorde had over 120 firm orders...
Cheers
Wino