Deliberate midair - possible?
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I'm sure it would be fairly easy to rent a light aircraft out of Wycombe , White Waltham etc fly reasonably low whilst ignoring all ATC and fly into either head on , or into the side of an aircraft on finals. What notice would ATC have to pass on to agencies who inform the airforce /army to shoot said intruder down??. Enough I would have thought if there are nearby resources to do so.
It would be the easiest thing in the world to base a couple of Apaches at Northholt along with an armed Hawk or two I would suspect.
I'm sure someone somewhere has the intelligence and inventiveness to look at scenarios we are putting forward and may have measures already in place that we dont know about.
It would be the easiest thing in the world to base a couple of Apaches at Northholt along with an armed Hawk or two I would suspect.
I'm sure someone somewhere has the intelligence and inventiveness to look at scenarios we are putting forward and may have measures already in place that we dont know about.
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Or...charter a Bizjet and use it 9/11 style??
or
Transmit false ATC instructions to cause problems.....
We could go on and on......
It doesn't take much imagination really, but we can't worry about every single possibility. We can't restrict our lives so much that we live in constant fear of attacks from here there and everywhere...
YES, someone could crash a light plane into another plane in all of the scenarios mentioned above... but is it a credible threat? NO!
or
Transmit false ATC instructions to cause problems.....
We could go on and on......
It doesn't take much imagination really, but we can't worry about every single possibility. We can't restrict our lives so much that we live in constant fear of attacks from here there and everywhere...
YES, someone could crash a light plane into another plane in all of the scenarios mentioned above... but is it a credible threat? NO!
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Fireflybob - it doesn't take a high school kid a second to think these things up, just go and look at a few films or read a comic. If we stop discussing these things, again they have won.
There seem to be some very strange ideas about what a light aircraft can do. Having spent a couple of hours chasing another light aircraft, only 50m away in the same type, I can tell you that hitting an airliner is harder than you think. All you have to do is miss and the disaster is averted. However the lighty is likely to be flipped about by wake or even break up and the heavy won't even notice. If they DID manage to get right in the way at the wrong time they would have to be extremely lucky and still they wouldn't have much of a chance, although theoretically it could be pretty bad.
I am more worried about the fireworks around November having been almost hit last year, and the police being utterly useless.
There seem to be some very strange ideas about what a light aircraft can do. Having spent a couple of hours chasing another light aircraft, only 50m away in the same type, I can tell you that hitting an airliner is harder than you think. All you have to do is miss and the disaster is averted. However the lighty is likely to be flipped about by wake or even break up and the heavy won't even notice. If they DID manage to get right in the way at the wrong time they would have to be extremely lucky and still they wouldn't have much of a chance, although theoretically it could be pretty bad.
I am more worried about the fireworks around November having been almost hit last year, and the police being utterly useless.
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Is it possible - probably yes. Is it probable - don't think so. Here are a few reasons why:
1) Speed: chasing any landing jet 'down the ILS' isn't really an option for any (bar a handful) of small a/c. And, eve if you could, the relatiive impact speed would be very low (remember, both a/c are moving in the same direction).
2) Wake: I've had my ecounters with wake turbulence and have no desire whatsoever to get into the wake of a 'slow and dirty 747'. Should our Mr. Mad chose to do so, he'll probabaly kiss the ground rather than the bird he's chasing
3) Aim: you've simply got no speed advantage over the jet, hence you'd have to hit on first try. No manouevring or corrections possible. Highly unlikely.
As for the 'circuits in Denham and flying straight into the departure path' bit - if anyone can outclimb a jet in a Cessna or a Piper, please show me how - I'd love to be able to do it ;-) !!
1) Speed: chasing any landing jet 'down the ILS' isn't really an option for any (bar a handful) of small a/c. And, eve if you could, the relatiive impact speed would be very low (remember, both a/c are moving in the same direction).
2) Wake: I've had my ecounters with wake turbulence and have no desire whatsoever to get into the wake of a 'slow and dirty 747'. Should our Mr. Mad chose to do so, he'll probabaly kiss the ground rather than the bird he's chasing
3) Aim: you've simply got no speed advantage over the jet, hence you'd have to hit on first try. No manouevring or corrections possible. Highly unlikely.
As for the 'circuits in Denham and flying straight into the departure path' bit - if anyone can outclimb a jet in a Cessna or a Piper, please show me how - I'd love to be able to do it ;-) !!
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Furthermore airspace is a lot more carefully controlled these days. An aircraft in an arrival corridor not talking to anyone would cause all kinds of problems.
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I still maintain there are 'trusted employees' out there who are willing and able to deviate from a short final and cause the next attrocities.
Imagine a co-ordinated attack of Boeings being flown into the terminals at JFK, LHR, MAN, ADM etc all within hours of each other.
No need to breach security, no need to hijack, no need for weapons. Probable and credible threat.
Know your enemy, we probably already do know them.
Imagine a co-ordinated attack of Boeings being flown into the terminals at JFK, LHR, MAN, ADM etc all within hours of each other.
No need to breach security, no need to hijack, no need for weapons. Probable and credible threat.
Know your enemy, we probably already do know them.
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Unfortunately all the points you raise are easily countered by a determined, somewhat aeronautically savvy terrorist.
And Silverhawk, is that a bit of racism I smell under your breath?
Some people like the idea of perpetual war whilst others look for solutions to end this madness. Let's stop conjuring up these dangerous thoughts. As someone has already pointed out. Life is very fragile, it can take the smallest of violent acts to disrupt a peaceful life.....but what's new? these things have been happening since time began.
The best way to avoid such a tragedy would be to get our moral backsides into gear and deal with the core issues that might be the cause of such a thing. Just my tupence.
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Superpilot, I didn't mention race at all. That might upset somebodies sensibilities and that would never do. Race and religion are not the issue, ideaology is.
I agree with you, fix the problem and the symptoms disappear.
I agree with you, fix the problem and the symptoms disappear.
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I have just been glancing throughthe posts on this topic with mounting anger. I really cannot understand the mentality of the people who have written the majority of this drivel Fireflybob is almost the only one with any sense. I suspect from the names used that most are wannabees or anorak spotters!
I cannot believe that any of them were written by professional pilots. We are living in a hell of a dangerouis age. It is no use saying that a terrorist can pick up a comic (sic) and read how to bring an aircraft down! Your idiot terrorist just might not, I say again, might not have read said "comic" and you have just given him an idea! It behoves all of us to stop broadcasting such stuff, however far fetched, that might give these guys a grain of help.
What do you hope to gain from your posts? A serious debate?
I give up!!!
I cannot believe that any of them were written by professional pilots. We are living in a hell of a dangerouis age. It is no use saying that a terrorist can pick up a comic (sic) and read how to bring an aircraft down! Your idiot terrorist just might not, I say again, might not have read said "comic" and you have just given him an idea! It behoves all of us to stop broadcasting such stuff, however far fetched, that might give these guys a grain of help.
What do you hope to gain from your posts? A serious debate?
I give up!!!
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Its the sort of overreaction that bof gives that makes terrorists win.
Talking about a possibility is very far from teaching someone how to fly an aircraft, develop their skill, plan, re plan and execute a terrible act.
If you want some ideas for how to cause mass panic, widespread deaths, and stop us from living our lives the way we are accustomed, then look no further than your own imagination, or indeed your history books.
The Japanese regulary crashed aeroplanes into things, the Brits and Germans used mustard gas in the war, the Americans use fuel-air bombs, many countries use mines and other very nasty things. Do you really think a rumour network on the net will start the next terrorist threat?
While today's threat is pretty nasty, things have been much worse in the past. Lets not forget the wars all around the world, the terrorists in many different countries, not to mention state sponsored terrorism, whether it is as a privateer or a recognised armed force.
We have to bne realistic about this threat, it is not time to give up our liberty just yet. We are a long way from needing to do that.
Talking about a possibility is very far from teaching someone how to fly an aircraft, develop their skill, plan, re plan and execute a terrible act.
If you want some ideas for how to cause mass panic, widespread deaths, and stop us from living our lives the way we are accustomed, then look no further than your own imagination, or indeed your history books.
The Japanese regulary crashed aeroplanes into things, the Brits and Germans used mustard gas in the war, the Americans use fuel-air bombs, many countries use mines and other very nasty things. Do you really think a rumour network on the net will start the next terrorist threat?
While today's threat is pretty nasty, things have been much worse in the past. Lets not forget the wars all around the world, the terrorists in many different countries, not to mention state sponsored terrorism, whether it is as a privateer or a recognised armed force.
We have to bne realistic about this threat, it is not time to give up our liberty just yet. We are a long way from needing to do that.
This is a nasty thread and I've reported it. I hope its removed. I believe CJ is trolling. If he was a pilot he would know the answer anyway.
For a start its crap, at least in this country and probably in the UK and Europe as well.
At least over here, if someone were to enter controlled airspace near a major airport and not instantly identify themselves and immediately comply with ATC then traffic would be routed well away from the offender until it was "removed" one way or the other. Thats what "Separation" means.
Controlled airspace step heights and boundaries are designed to prevent this sort of thing - deliberately or accidently.
For a start its crap, at least in this country and probably in the UK and Europe as well.
At least over here, if someone were to enter controlled airspace near a major airport and not instantly identify themselves and immediately comply with ATC then traffic would be routed well away from the offender until it was "removed" one way or the other. Thats what "Separation" means.
Controlled airspace step heights and boundaries are designed to prevent this sort of thing - deliberately or accidently.
How would you know someone was in controlled airspace in real time to allow action?
Surely TXponder would be off. Mitigates identification via secondary radar and TCAS. ATC radar, or at least the stuff I am familiar with may or may not be able detect a primary radar return. Even then you have no idea of height.
Surely TXponder would be off. Mitigates identification via secondary radar and TCAS. ATC radar, or at least the stuff I am familiar with may or may not be able detect a primary radar return. Even then you have no idea of height.
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Ok, I'll give you that the PSA collided with the 172. What about the AeroMex (727 or DC9) that WAS hit by a warrior after the pilot had a heart attack? Also in LAX airspace (but unsure of the date right now).
If you look at it logically, this is probably not going to happen...but it has by accident (as mentioned). Also, I agree with some of the previous, I don't believe we are giving anything "away" here. If you want to go down that route, then they should have banned Tom Clancy's book about the JAL 744 crashing into the White House and taking out almost the entire American government, including the Supreme Court justices...YEARS before 9/11.
If you look at it logically, this is probably not going to happen...but it has by accident (as mentioned). Also, I agree with some of the previous, I don't believe we are giving anything "away" here. If you want to go down that route, then they should have banned Tom Clancy's book about the JAL 744 crashing into the White House and taking out almost the entire American government, including the Supreme Court justices...YEARS before 9/11.
HD
A busy terminal environment, especially with radar set up for wx in the area, could it be overlooked? Could it be recognized for its intent in time?
A busy terminal environment, especially with radar set up for wx in the area, could it be overlooked? Could it be recognized for its intent in time?
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QUOTE
It behoves all of us to stop broadcasting such stuff, however far fetched, that might give these guys a grain of help.
UNQUOTE
We need to get this straight. The decision to take the path of terrorism is not a spur-of-the-moment one. A would-be terrorist isn't going to read this thread and then suddenly decide to implement some of the stupid, far fetched ideas posted above.
The recent terror attacks are part of a planned, sustained and co-ordinated campaign against us and are likely to have been 'in the pipeline' for months/years. I think it's naive to assume that this thread is giving 'fuel' to these monsters - it doesn't take a genuis to think of a way to take lives...
We can't let fear of terrorism rule our lives.
It behoves all of us to stop broadcasting such stuff, however far fetched, that might give these guys a grain of help.
UNQUOTE
We need to get this straight. The decision to take the path of terrorism is not a spur-of-the-moment one. A would-be terrorist isn't going to read this thread and then suddenly decide to implement some of the stupid, far fetched ideas posted above.
The recent terror attacks are part of a planned, sustained and co-ordinated campaign against us and are likely to have been 'in the pipeline' for months/years. I think it's naive to assume that this thread is giving 'fuel' to these monsters - it doesn't take a genuis to think of a way to take lives...
We can't let fear of terrorism rule our lives.
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i think this is a poor thread
how about this one?
Do you think it possible, that just as you are slipping into the gents for a waz, that your wife, who was hitherto completely normal, follows you in, and without you being aware of the other revellers in the pub shouting out "watch out, she's behind you....", and also believing she would follow the separation procedures between the ladies and the gents, she uses the same toilets as you?
could it happen?
how about this one?
Do you think it possible, that just as you are slipping into the gents for a waz, that your wife, who was hitherto completely normal, follows you in, and without you being aware of the other revellers in the pub shouting out "watch out, she's behind you....", and also believing she would follow the separation procedures between the ladies and the gents, she uses the same toilets as you?
could it happen?