Deliberate midair - possible?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: London
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Deliberate midair - possible?
Hello All,
A dirty terrible thought has been causing us trouble here.
In light of the terrible events in London on the 7th July we were wondering. Could one of these mad men bring down an airliner using a light aircraft in a deliberate midair.
Let me paint a picture.
Our Mr Mad who is a full/partial PPL rents a light aircraft from the flying club. Picks a day when LHR are on the 27's and loiters just outside the eastern edge of the TMA. Waits for a packed 747 to get dirty and slow and then follows him down the ILS to a deliberate midair. He has the possibility to bring down a packed 747 over central/west London. Would involve a terrible loss of life both on the aircraft and on the ground so, I guess, right up Mr Mads street.
Is it possible? Also on a more productive note what would you do if you saw one creeping up on the TCAS? Whats the best course of action...
Its a grim one but worth thinking about.
A dirty terrible thought has been causing us trouble here.
In light of the terrible events in London on the 7th July we were wondering. Could one of these mad men bring down an airliner using a light aircraft in a deliberate midair.
Let me paint a picture.
Our Mr Mad who is a full/partial PPL rents a light aircraft from the flying club. Picks a day when LHR are on the 27's and loiters just outside the eastern edge of the TMA. Waits for a packed 747 to get dirty and slow and then follows him down the ILS to a deliberate midair. He has the possibility to bring down a packed 747 over central/west London. Would involve a terrible loss of life both on the aircraft and on the ground so, I guess, right up Mr Mads street.
Is it possible? Also on a more productive note what would you do if you saw one creeping up on the TCAS? Whats the best course of action...
Its a grim one but worth thinking about.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Where do some of these people get their ideas from? Have you any idea how difficult it would be to try and "chase", never mind just try and intercept on a collision course with a jet? A PPL with no interception/formation flying experience trying to creep up on a heavy jet.
Too much hollywood mate. Next you'll have a Bruce Willis running across a major airport trying to stop a jet flying into the ground because the nutters have 'moved' the Glideslope back a thousand feet from the runway.
Too much hollywood mate. Next you'll have a Bruce Willis running across a major airport trying to stop a jet flying into the ground because the nutters have 'moved' the Glideslope back a thousand feet from the runway.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: London
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Also fail to see why this has been moved from its original home. The brief states "Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots"
He won\'t be hard to chase at all - he\'ll be on the ILS. He\'ll even help you out with handy radio calls...
Don\'t think you can be so dismissive. You could have said the same things about 9/11 before it happened - that also would have sounded pretty "Hollywood"..
He won\'t be hard to chase at all - he\'ll be on the ILS. He\'ll even help you out with handy radio calls...
Don\'t think you can be so dismissive. You could have said the same things about 9/11 before it happened - that also would have sounded pretty "Hollywood"..
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: London
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FACT:-
25 September 1978; Pacific Southwest 727-200; San Diego, CA: The aircraft had a midair collision with a single engine Cessna and crashed. All seven crew members, all 128 passengers, both occupants of the second aircraft, and 13 others on the ground were killed.
OK, so if it can happen by accident then it can happen deliberately...
I was trying to think of a plan of action to avoid rather than have to defend if its possible or not...
25 September 1978; Pacific Southwest 727-200; San Diego, CA: The aircraft had a midair collision with a single engine Cessna and crashed. All seven crew members, all 128 passengers, both occupants of the second aircraft, and 13 others on the ground were killed.
OK, so if it can happen by accident then it can happen deliberately...
I was trying to think of a plan of action to avoid rather than have to defend if its possible or not...
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Planet Earth for a short visit
Posts: 614
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Doesn't need an aircraft to perform an intercept.
Just put a MR MAD in one of the driving seats of something big arriving at a major airport.
' He seemed like a perfectly normal guy, not extremist in any way. The family can't believe he has done something like this it's so out of character.'
Sound familiar?
Just put a MR MAD in one of the driving seats of something big arriving at a major airport.
' He seemed like a perfectly normal guy, not extremist in any way. The family can't believe he has done something like this it's so out of character.'
Sound familiar?
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Speaking as an ex-Heathrow controller I would say most definitely "yes" it would be perfectly possible. And I don't think there can be any "plan of action" to avoid such an event. We just have to hope and pray that it never happens..
The Reverend
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Sydney,NSW,Australia
Posts: 2,020
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Totally different scenario Lovely.
08.59:30 APP PSA one eighty-two, traffic twelve o'clock, one mile northbound.
08.59:35 PSA RT 1 We're looking.
08.59:30 APP PSA one eighty-two, additional traffic's, ah, twelve o'clock, three miles just north of the field northwest bound, a Cessna one seventy-two climbing VFR out of one thousand four hundred.
08:59:50 PSA RT 2 Okay, we've got that other twelve.
08.59:57 APP Cessna seven seven one one golf, San Diego departure radar contact, maintain VFR conditions at or below three thousand five hundred, fly heading zero seven zero, vector final approach course.
09.00:16 APP PSA one eighty-two, traffic's at twelve o'clock, three miles out of one thousand seven hundred.
09.00:21 CAM 2 Got'em.
09.00:22 PSA RT 1 Traffic in sight.
09.00:23 APP Okay, sir, maintain visual separation, contact Lindbergh tower one three three point three, have a nice day now.
09.00:28 PSA RT 1 Okay.
09.00:34 PSA RT 1 Lindbergh PSA one eighty-two downwind.
09.00:38 TWR PSA one eighty-two, Lindbergh tower, ah, traffic twelve o'clock one mile a Cessna.
09.00:41 CAM-2 Flaps five.
09.00:43 CAM 1 Is that the one we're looking at.
09.00:43 CAM 2 Yeah, but I don't see him now.
09.00:44 PSA RT 1 Okay, we had it there a minute ago.
09.00:47 TWR One eighty-two, roger.
09.00:50 PSA RT 1 I think he's passed off to our right.
09.00:51 TWR Yeah.
09.00:52 CAM 1 He was right over here a minute ago.
09.00:53 TWR How far are you going to take your downwind one eighty-two, company traffic is waiting for departure.
09.00:57 PSA RT 1 Ah probably about three to four miles.
09.00:59 TWR Okay.
09.01:07 TWR PSA one eighty-two, cleared to land.
09.01:08 PSA RT 1 One eighty-two's cleared to land.
09.01:11 CAM 2 Are we clear of that Cessna?
09.01:13 CAM- Suppose to be.
09.01:14 CAM 1 I guess.
09.01:20 CAM 4 I hope.
09.01:21 CAM-1 Oh yeah, before we turned downwind, I saw him about one o'clock, probably behind us now.
09.01:38 CAM-2 There's one underneath.
09.01:39 CAM 2 I was looking at that inbound there.
09.01:45 CAM 1 Whoop!
09.01:46 CAM 2 Aghhh!
09.01:47 CAM Sound of impact
09.01:48 CAM 1 Oh ****!
09.01:49 CAM-1 Easy baby, easy baby.
09.01:51 CAM [sound of electrical system reactivation tone on CVR, system off less than one second]
09.01:51 CAM-1 What have we got here?
09.01:52 CAM-2 It's bad.
09.01:53 CAM-2 We're hit man, we are hit.
09.01:56 RDO-1 Tower, we're going down, this is PSA.
09.01:57 TWR Okay, we'll call the equipment for you.
09.01:58 CAM [sound of stall warning]
CAM 1 This is it baby!
CAM ? Bob [name of F/O]
CAM 1 Brace yourself.
CAM ? Hey baby..
CAM? Ma I love you..
09.02:04 [End of recording]
You have been watching too much Hollywood.
08.59:30 APP PSA one eighty-two, traffic twelve o'clock, one mile northbound.
08.59:35 PSA RT 1 We're looking.
08.59:30 APP PSA one eighty-two, additional traffic's, ah, twelve o'clock, three miles just north of the field northwest bound, a Cessna one seventy-two climbing VFR out of one thousand four hundred.
08:59:50 PSA RT 2 Okay, we've got that other twelve.
08.59:57 APP Cessna seven seven one one golf, San Diego departure radar contact, maintain VFR conditions at or below three thousand five hundred, fly heading zero seven zero, vector final approach course.
09.00:16 APP PSA one eighty-two, traffic's at twelve o'clock, three miles out of one thousand seven hundred.
09.00:21 CAM 2 Got'em.
09.00:22 PSA RT 1 Traffic in sight.
09.00:23 APP Okay, sir, maintain visual separation, contact Lindbergh tower one three three point three, have a nice day now.
09.00:28 PSA RT 1 Okay.
09.00:34 PSA RT 1 Lindbergh PSA one eighty-two downwind.
09.00:38 TWR PSA one eighty-two, Lindbergh tower, ah, traffic twelve o'clock one mile a Cessna.
09.00:41 CAM-2 Flaps five.
09.00:43 CAM 1 Is that the one we're looking at.
09.00:43 CAM 2 Yeah, but I don't see him now.
09.00:44 PSA RT 1 Okay, we had it there a minute ago.
09.00:47 TWR One eighty-two, roger.
09.00:50 PSA RT 1 I think he's passed off to our right.
09.00:51 TWR Yeah.
09.00:52 CAM 1 He was right over here a minute ago.
09.00:53 TWR How far are you going to take your downwind one eighty-two, company traffic is waiting for departure.
09.00:57 PSA RT 1 Ah probably about three to four miles.
09.00:59 TWR Okay.
09.01:07 TWR PSA one eighty-two, cleared to land.
09.01:08 PSA RT 1 One eighty-two's cleared to land.
09.01:11 CAM 2 Are we clear of that Cessna?
09.01:13 CAM- Suppose to be.
09.01:14 CAM 1 I guess.
09.01:20 CAM 4 I hope.
09.01:21 CAM-1 Oh yeah, before we turned downwind, I saw him about one o'clock, probably behind us now.
09.01:38 CAM-2 There's one underneath.
09.01:39 CAM 2 I was looking at that inbound there.
09.01:45 CAM 1 Whoop!
09.01:46 CAM 2 Aghhh!
09.01:47 CAM Sound of impact
09.01:48 CAM 1 Oh ****!
09.01:49 CAM-1 Easy baby, easy baby.
09.01:51 CAM [sound of electrical system reactivation tone on CVR, system off less than one second]
09.01:51 CAM-1 What have we got here?
09.01:52 CAM-2 It's bad.
09.01:53 CAM-2 We're hit man, we are hit.
09.01:56 RDO-1 Tower, we're going down, this is PSA.
09.01:57 TWR Okay, we'll call the equipment for you.
09.01:58 CAM [sound of stall warning]
CAM 1 This is it baby!
CAM ? Bob [name of F/O]
CAM 1 Brace yourself.
CAM ? Hey baby..
CAM? Ma I love you..
09.02:04 [End of recording]
You have been watching too much Hollywood.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: London
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HotDog - Is that the CVR transcript of the incident? I'm a little lost. You accuse me of watching too many Hollywood blockbusters yet attach a CVR transcript that proves that it actually happened???
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Heathrow
Posts: 291
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You have to remember that a nasty terrorist can cause all sorts of nasty harm to all sorts of normal everyday things. A few seconds thought will prove that. In general there is nothing you can do except prevent these things happening in the first place. That doesn't mean you can't disagree and live your life a different way. It just means don't stir up the hornets nest. Unfortunately many events have stirred the nest, and there will be some pretty nasty things happen in the future. What those are is anyones guess, the fact remains we cannot prevent them all and just have to get on with our lives. In many cases the prevention is worse than the act and in that case they have won. At the end of the day ALL security systems depend on trust. Adding extra "security" to prevent your imagined scenario will only curtail innocent people's lives - something millions of people died to protect. Terrorists don't abide by laws, so legislation often only harms the innocent. I can't see how we could introduce anything that would solve your scenario without curtailing otherwise peaceful activities to all our detriment.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: UK
Age: 39
Posts: 121
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, there's something which could 'theoretically' happen...and then there's a credible threat.
Flying a light a/c delibrately into an airliner COULD happen, but so could an ground-to-air missle attack, or another 'shoe bomb' incident.
The issue is deciding what is CREDIBLE and what isn't, and planning accordingly.
We cannot anticipate and plan for every single possibility because there will always be vunerabilities at some point. There is always unfortunately a 'softer' target.
(JetStreamRider beat me to it!)
Flying a light a/c delibrately into an airliner COULD happen, but so could an ground-to-air missle attack, or another 'shoe bomb' incident.
The issue is deciding what is CREDIBLE and what isn't, and planning accordingly.
We cannot anticipate and plan for every single possibility because there will always be vunerabilities at some point. There is always unfortunately a 'softer' target.
(JetStreamRider beat me to it!)
Last edited by +'ve ROC; 26th Jul 2005 at 14:37.
Union Goon
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 1,097
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cj
The PSA 727 actually hit the cessna, not the other way around. Simple physics. the faster plane runs down the slower plane. Approach speed of most jets is faster than most light aircraft can achieve.
So its not something that can be done casually.
Furthermore airspace is a lot more carefully controlled these days. An aircraft in an arrival corridor not talking to anyone would cause all kinds of problems.
basically you could get the same effect by just launching a bunch of balloons. Think of the barrage balloons of WWII because the jet is gonna run into the smaller plane, not the other way around.
Wino
The PSA 727 actually hit the cessna, not the other way around. Simple physics. the faster plane runs down the slower plane. Approach speed of most jets is faster than most light aircraft can achieve.
So its not something that can be done casually.
Furthermore airspace is a lot more carefully controlled these days. An aircraft in an arrival corridor not talking to anyone would cause all kinds of problems.
basically you could get the same effect by just launching a bunch of balloons. Think of the barrage balloons of WWII because the jet is gonna run into the smaller plane, not the other way around.
Wino
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: London
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agree with everything said.
My real point was to crystalize it in our minds and think what to do if this situation started to emerge. So what would flight deck crew / controllers course of action be? The intruder would obviously be seen on ground radar and then on TCAS. I remember reading an article about Spitfire v 109 where they said it wa almost a set format. If you were in a Spit and got bounced then you went straight into a tight turn which the 109 was unable to replicate to the same degree. If you were in a 109 then you pushed the stick and dived away taking advantage of the negative g fuel system that the Spit didn't have. I'm guessing therefore that if I was approached by an "intruder" then I'd just adopt a maximum rate climb in the hope that they couldn't follow. Obviously some help from a controller would be needed as to what was a legit contact and what was unauthorised, info that until the later stages (i.e. it became obvious) TCAS couldn't give.
Its getting heard all the time but I agree that to change or way of life or our freedom to live means that these mad men have won a victory. It was never my intention to suggest banning GA or to make flight plans mandatory for all GA trips, as in say Colombia (but for different reasons)..
My real point was to crystalize it in our minds and think what to do if this situation started to emerge. So what would flight deck crew / controllers course of action be? The intruder would obviously be seen on ground radar and then on TCAS. I remember reading an article about Spitfire v 109 where they said it wa almost a set format. If you were in a Spit and got bounced then you went straight into a tight turn which the 109 was unable to replicate to the same degree. If you were in a 109 then you pushed the stick and dived away taking advantage of the negative g fuel system that the Spit didn't have. I'm guessing therefore that if I was approached by an "intruder" then I'd just adopt a maximum rate climb in the hope that they couldn't follow. Obviously some help from a controller would be needed as to what was a legit contact and what was unauthorised, info that until the later stages (i.e. it became obvious) TCAS couldn't give.
Its getting heard all the time but I agree that to change or way of life or our freedom to live means that these mad men have won a victory. It was never my intention to suggest banning GA or to make flight plans mandatory for all GA trips, as in say Colombia (but for different reasons)..
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Near sheep!
Posts: 915
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The amount of planning they would have to put into that would be unreal!!
The chances of them actually getting it right on the day, very very slim!
If terrorists weighed those factors up, it would surely give them the nod to move onto something else.
There are so many open targets out there for them, and they are of course realising this now!!
And anyway, one for technical guys. Could a cessna or baron withstand the wake turbulance as it came close to impact, whilst 'following' a 747 down the glide? I dont think so!!
The chances of them actually getting it right on the day, very very slim!
If terrorists weighed those factors up, it would surely give them the nod to move onto something else.
There are so many open targets out there for them, and they are of course realising this now!!
And anyway, one for technical guys. Could a cessna or baron withstand the wake turbulance as it came close to impact, whilst 'following' a 747 down the glide? I dont think so!!
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UNITED KINGDOM
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is unlikely that the light would generate a TCAS contact as Mr Nasty would no doubt have turned off his transponder thereby making TCAS useless. They did it on 911 and ATC lost primary radar contact or just couldn't monitor the exact contacts they had.
All ATC would do is call an unknown primary conact and issue any avoiding action they felt necessary if it was felt that the contact was actually an aircraft (depending on the type opf airspace)
All ATC would do is call an unknown primary conact and issue any avoiding action they felt necessary if it was felt that the contact was actually an aircraft (depending on the type opf airspace)
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: flyover country USA
Age: 82
Posts: 4,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts