controllers with broken english
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Not sure about Dan Air being Pilot error, or at least the version of events I was shown. Again it's the classic error chain leading to the scene of the accident.
Anyone who's ever been on a flight deck when the controller utters a complete string of incomprehensibility preceeded by your callsign knows the sinking feeling you get when you look across at the other bloke and know he didn't understand a word of it either.
With all the approach paraphenalia to be done at the same time it's not something you could call helpful.
Controllers (even some on this thread) get the same thing from foreign pilots, and I'm sure that some of the controllers I talk to around and about are cursing me for not being able to talk French/Spanish/Italian/Turkish/German/Urdu.
The greatest respect to all multilinguists but I apologise for not having the time to learn the language everywhere i go. And that includes Birmingham.
My final point; Mathematically it's simpler to all learn 0ne language and stick to it rather than everyone learn everyone else's language.
Anyone who's ever been on a flight deck when the controller utters a complete string of incomprehensibility preceeded by your callsign knows the sinking feeling you get when you look across at the other bloke and know he didn't understand a word of it either.
With all the approach paraphenalia to be done at the same time it's not something you could call helpful.
Controllers (even some on this thread) get the same thing from foreign pilots, and I'm sure that some of the controllers I talk to around and about are cursing me for not being able to talk French/Spanish/Italian/Turkish/German/Urdu.
The greatest respect to all multilinguists but I apologise for not having the time to learn the language everywhere i go. And that includes Birmingham.
My final point; Mathematically it's simpler to all learn 0ne language and stick to it rather than everyone learn everyone else's language.
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OK Rananim and others... let's get back to the basics... the original Q on the thread was to do with Controllers Using Broken English.. The problem being that it's difficult for all concerned to be aware of what is being asked or required... the same problem occurs if more than one language is being used... The problem then is to do with communication...
To say that language problems have only been contributory is farcical...50 years ago it was not uncommon for a major accident to occur because someone made one silly mistake... those days are gone because we've learned better to protect ourselves and our passengers with SOP's and back-up equipment, almost all aviation accidents today have multiple contributory factors...that is why it's so difficult to abolish them completely...that doesn't meen we simply don't try !
The Dan-Air accident ( as I mentioned earlier in this thread ) was largely as a result of the controllers very poor English... an instruction was mis-understood..the crew drove into a mountain.... The Zagreb collision might have been avoided had the instruction to climb been given on the frequency in English...In both these accidents the controllers were under unfair pressure... but that's when we all make mistakes...poor communication whether from equipment problems, language problems or whatever has probably been a factor in many accidents down the years....the reason we do not call ' Ready for Take-Off' is a direct result of the worst accident in the history of aviation... the words 'take-off' are now only to be used first by the controller and then confirmed by the aircraft... if details such as this are considered vitaly important how can you realistically argue that it's safe to use more than one language.... the fact that it hasn't happened to YOU ( yet ) ... doesn't meen that it's safe....Again, as I pointed out before... I, my crew plus the crew and pasengers of a Fokker 100 and who knows how many people on the ground beneath us escaped death because a cloud was no bigger than it was... that to me is not an acceptable risk...
To say that language problems have only been contributory is farcical...50 years ago it was not uncommon for a major accident to occur because someone made one silly mistake... those days are gone because we've learned better to protect ourselves and our passengers with SOP's and back-up equipment, almost all aviation accidents today have multiple contributory factors...that is why it's so difficult to abolish them completely...that doesn't meen we simply don't try !
The Dan-Air accident ( as I mentioned earlier in this thread ) was largely as a result of the controllers very poor English... an instruction was mis-understood..the crew drove into a mountain.... The Zagreb collision might have been avoided had the instruction to climb been given on the frequency in English...In both these accidents the controllers were under unfair pressure... but that's when we all make mistakes...poor communication whether from equipment problems, language problems or whatever has probably been a factor in many accidents down the years....the reason we do not call ' Ready for Take-Off' is a direct result of the worst accident in the history of aviation... the words 'take-off' are now only to be used first by the controller and then confirmed by the aircraft... if details such as this are considered vitaly important how can you realistically argue that it's safe to use more than one language.... the fact that it hasn't happened to YOU ( yet ) ... doesn't meen that it's safe....Again, as I pointed out before... I, my crew plus the crew and pasengers of a Fokker 100 and who knows how many people on the ground beneath us escaped death because a cloud was no bigger than it was... that to me is not an acceptable risk...
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I'd forgotten about this thread ... 
yachtpilot thank you for your lovely remark. What is your opinion then about military traffic that cannot be heard? Despite English-only speaking airspace there are still mid-airs.
Jerricho to end this argument and answer your question of WHY, here's my point of view: Speaking a language does not mean understanding it completely. There are a lot of pilots who have trouble with more than one language (including native English speakers). For countries where English is not the native language, using their native language is safer than using the "foreign language". I don't mean to offend people that live in Central and South America, but I feel safer in this dual language airspace than the thought that everyone had to speak English and probably only understand half of it.
And again, yes it is a calculated risk. As a matter of fact the whole aviation industry is a calculated risk. Live with it and be aware.
About what you call "load of cr@p": There's something called the "cocktail party effect" (from the CAA human factors exam). From my experience, there's a higher focus/listening watch on ATC in dual language airspace, than in English-only speaking airspace. In English-only spoken airspace, one listens to a lot of communications but only react when one's callsign is being addressed. I also have flown with one captain to Canada who would complain about the dual language issue and as soon as we crossed the border, he would miss some calls because he didn't pay any attention.
Finally, what about SELCAL? I have never used it, but what I remember from my ground school, you have a visual indication if ATC wants to contact you. So then, you don't listen to ATC all the time, do you?
This problem might be solved in a short time when ATC transmissions are being shown on your MFD instead of VHF/HF comms. Then again, that might pose more problems because no one else besides ATC and the aircraft that is being addressed knows about the ATC instructions.
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yachtpilot thank you for your lovely remark. What is your opinion then about military traffic that cannot be heard? Despite English-only speaking airspace there are still mid-airs.
Jerricho to end this argument and answer your question of WHY, here's my point of view: Speaking a language does not mean understanding it completely. There are a lot of pilots who have trouble with more than one language (including native English speakers). For countries where English is not the native language, using their native language is safer than using the "foreign language". I don't mean to offend people that live in Central and South America, but I feel safer in this dual language airspace than the thought that everyone had to speak English and probably only understand half of it.
And again, yes it is a calculated risk. As a matter of fact the whole aviation industry is a calculated risk. Live with it and be aware.
About what you call "load of cr@p": There's something called the "cocktail party effect" (from the CAA human factors exam). From my experience, there's a higher focus/listening watch on ATC in dual language airspace, than in English-only speaking airspace. In English-only spoken airspace, one listens to a lot of communications but only react when one's callsign is being addressed. I also have flown with one captain to Canada who would complain about the dual language issue and as soon as we crossed the border, he would miss some calls because he didn't pay any attention.
Finally, what about SELCAL? I have never used it, but what I remember from my ground school, you have a visual indication if ATC wants to contact you. So then, you don't listen to ATC all the time, do you?
This problem might be solved in a short time when ATC transmissions are being shown on your MFD instead of VHF/HF comms. Then again, that might pose more problems because no one else besides ATC and the aircraft that is being addressed knows about the ATC instructions.
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Quote:
This problem might be solved in a short time when ATC transmissions are being shown on your MFD instead of VHF/HF comms. Then again, that might pose more problems because no one else besides ATC and the aircraft that is being addressed knows about the ATC instructions.
*Sigh* Which just supports the argument that has been put forward here of a lack of situational awareness when everybody isn't hearing what's going on. You're entitled to your opinion, but it seems there are many voices here, both drivers and ATC who hold a different point of view!!
(BTW, I was under the impression SELCAL was predominantly used in HF environments, where normal VHF communications aren't possible. And chances are these are in procedural ATC environments not busy terminal areas...............can't really see the link)
This problem might be solved in a short time when ATC transmissions are being shown on your MFD instead of VHF/HF comms. Then again, that might pose more problems because no one else besides ATC and the aircraft that is being addressed knows about the ATC instructions.
*Sigh* Which just supports the argument that has been put forward here of a lack of situational awareness when everybody isn't hearing what's going on. You're entitled to your opinion, but it seems there are many voices here, both drivers and ATC who hold a different point of view!!
(BTW, I was under the impression SELCAL was predominantly used in HF environments, where normal VHF communications aren't possible. And chances are these are in procedural ATC environments not busy terminal areas...............can't really see the link)
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Well said Pricilla!
Just imagine if Spanish (which is catching up on English in no. of speakers) were made the only ATC language and all british pilots had to learn spanish! hahaha! I can just imagine:
hola, yo requesto permissino to descendo to flight levelo...
i think its logic that french pilots can speak french while flying in french speaking airspace, or russian, or spanish or italian...
Just imagine if Spanish (which is catching up on English in no. of speakers) were made the only ATC language and all british pilots had to learn spanish! hahaha! I can just imagine:
hola, yo requesto permissino to descendo to flight levelo...
i think its logic that french pilots can speak french while flying in french speaking airspace, or russian, or spanish or italian...
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Just want to say, that if the aviation language wasn't english, there wouldn't be any pilots in England.
May be 2,or 3% because you guys are good at pointing out fingers, but when it comes to second language, vous devenez minuscule???
You must be a the back of the pack. So don't try to blame the french, look at yourself first.
Just use your TCAS, it screams at you in English doesn't it!
What is the difference anyway, when you are in IMC, whether you know where the traffic is or not? what are you gonna do?
By the time you see it , it must be too late.
May be 2,or 3% because you guys are good at pointing out fingers, but when it comes to second language, vous devenez minuscule???
You must be a the back of the pack. So don't try to blame the french, look at yourself first.
Just use your TCAS, it screams at you in English doesn't it!
What is the difference anyway, when you are in IMC, whether you know where the traffic is or not? what are you gonna do?
By the time you see it , it must be too late.
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Geezuz............
You are here, the point is way the hell over there. This isn't a zenophobic attack on any one particular language. The points being made over the past year (and why the hell this has been dragged kicking and screaming back to the fray God only knows) is that of a SINGLE aviation language!!! At this point in time, English is the common demoninator of languages if you will world wide. Doesn't this make it a prime candidate for this (which has been thrashed out now for many months here!)
Go and read the WHOLE thread, please.
You are here, the point is way the hell over there. This isn't a zenophobic attack on any one particular language. The points being made over the past year (and why the hell this has been dragged kicking and screaming back to the fray God only knows) is that of a SINGLE aviation language!!! At this point in time, English is the common demoninator of languages if you will world wide. Doesn't this make it a prime candidate for this (which has been thrashed out now for many months here!)
Go and read the WHOLE thread, please.
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Well said, J. Although I wouldn't mind fleshing-out the issue a little more, now that it's back toward the top of the stack. I was learning something when it went away...
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I'M WITH YOU JERRICO...I CAN'T BELIEVE THAT THIS 'SCYLLA' OF A SUBJECT HAS RISEN AGAIN....
A SINGLE LANGUAGE IS ONLY COMMON SENSE AS WE ALL NEED TO KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON...ESPECIALLY WHEN SOME POOR BASTARD IS SCREWING UP AND HASN'T YET REALISED IT...ENGLISH WAS CHOSEN BECAUSE WORLD-WIDE IT IS FAR AND AWAY THE MOST SPOKEN FIRST OR SECOND LANGUAGE, IF THE SINGLE LANGUAGE WAS BEING RECONSIDERED WHICH WOULD BE POINTLESS THEN PROBABLY SPANISH WOULD HAVE TO COME NEXT AND AFTER THAT PROBABLY RUSSIAN...BEYOND THAT THEN WE WOULD HAVE TO START LOOKING AT MAYBE GERMAN OR FRENCH BUT THE SIGNIFICANT FACTOR IS THAT IT IS A 'WORLD-WIDE' ISSUE... NOT JUST IN EUROPE...OR THE WEST... OR THE EAST BUT WORLD-WIDE...AND THAT IS WHY ENGLISH WAS CHOSEN AND WILL REMAIN FAR AND AWAY THE MOST SPOKEN AND UNDERSTOOD INTERNATIONAL LANGUAGE....NOTE THE INTERNATIONAL SO THAT WE DON'T HAVE A THREAD DOMINATED BY PROTESTING CHINESE SPEAKERS...
A SINGLE LANGUAGE IS ONLY COMMON SENSE AS WE ALL NEED TO KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON...ESPECIALLY WHEN SOME POOR BASTARD IS SCREWING UP AND HASN'T YET REALISED IT...ENGLISH WAS CHOSEN BECAUSE WORLD-WIDE IT IS FAR AND AWAY THE MOST SPOKEN FIRST OR SECOND LANGUAGE, IF THE SINGLE LANGUAGE WAS BEING RECONSIDERED WHICH WOULD BE POINTLESS THEN PROBABLY SPANISH WOULD HAVE TO COME NEXT AND AFTER THAT PROBABLY RUSSIAN...BEYOND THAT THEN WE WOULD HAVE TO START LOOKING AT MAYBE GERMAN OR FRENCH BUT THE SIGNIFICANT FACTOR IS THAT IT IS A 'WORLD-WIDE' ISSUE... NOT JUST IN EUROPE...OR THE WEST... OR THE EAST BUT WORLD-WIDE...AND THAT IS WHY ENGLISH WAS CHOSEN AND WILL REMAIN FAR AND AWAY THE MOST SPOKEN AND UNDERSTOOD INTERNATIONAL LANGUAGE....NOTE THE INTERNATIONAL SO THAT WE DON'T HAVE A THREAD DOMINATED BY PROTESTING CHINESE SPEAKERS...
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I guess I hadn't considered that. And look at me putting the apostrophe in the wrong place in "you're." I'm pathetic. I think I'll go be abused in the "affect/effect" thread... 
Dave
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Reading this never-ending thread, two points spring to my mind:
1/ The original thread title (I know, it was 9 pages ago) was "Controllers with broken English". Ignoring for a second the situation awareness issue, how it came to be the usual moan on ze French having ze nerve to speak French to French ATC in French airspace is beyond me, bearing in mind French ATC 's level of English is actually quite good.
2/ It seem the "moaners" are all from Blighty (or at least native English-speakers). Flight crew from South America, Africa,Central Europe or Asia do not seem to mind the double-language ATC issue (if they do, they haven't contributed to the thread)...
Cheers
1/ The original thread title (I know, it was 9 pages ago) was "Controllers with broken English". Ignoring for a second the situation awareness issue, how it came to be the usual moan on ze French having ze nerve to speak French to French ATC in French airspace is beyond me, bearing in mind French ATC 's level of English is actually quite good.
2/ It seem the "moaners" are all from Blighty (or at least native English-speakers). Flight crew from South America, Africa,Central Europe or Asia do not seem to mind the double-language ATC issue (if they do, they haven't contributed to the thread)...
Cheers
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Jerricho:
By the definition of "common denominator",this would be Esperanto!
After having,long ago and under a different pseudo worked for ,fought for-and got censored by Danny in the process- using english phraseology at CDG,I have come to the conclusion that the French will use English R/T procedures at exactly the same time the Brits will give the £ up across the Manche and join the €.
English is the common demoninator of languages if you will world wide
After having,long ago and under a different pseudo worked for ,fought for-and got censored by Danny in the process- using english phraseology at CDG,I have come to the conclusion that the French will use English R/T procedures at exactly the same time the Brits will give the £ up across the Manche and join the €.
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5 Languages worldwide + ICAO
Most spoken language is CHINESE then SPANISH next ENGLISH followed by RUSSIAN and FRENCH at the end.
This are the five ICAO languages. Fly in chinese airspace and then go ahead and make a request..... goooood luck if you understand what the people on the ground are talking to you. I flew recently to HKG and I we had a very "british" voice , indeed a high professional, at the other end and I enjoyed the quality of service and handling but the F/O had his problems with it as he uses fractured english in his communication. As we arrived in the korean airspace he felt comfortable but not me anymore..... he wonders why? but not me. I have a real phobia to have a medical emergency in the Air and want to tell those people what is really going on and get the best available assistance for the PAX but I have my concerns that we can explain what is going on. So if You complain about the french then think about twice, they are still gold when I compare some in far east with them. And, I remember a explainaition from a LAX controller, there is NO english! People speak Texas, Atlanta, Australia, and and and ..
NG
This are the five ICAO languages. Fly in chinese airspace and then go ahead and make a request..... goooood luck if you understand what the people on the ground are talking to you. I flew recently to HKG and I we had a very "british" voice , indeed a high professional, at the other end and I enjoyed the quality of service and handling but the F/O had his problems with it as he uses fractured english in his communication. As we arrived in the korean airspace he felt comfortable but not me anymore..... he wonders why? but not me. I have a real phobia to have a medical emergency in the Air and want to tell those people what is really going on and get the best available assistance for the PAX but I have my concerns that we can explain what is going on. So if You complain about the french then think about twice, they are still gold when I compare some in far east with them. And, I remember a explainaition from a LAX controller, there is NO english! People speak Texas, Atlanta, Australia, and and and ..
NG
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well... I read a great part of this thread, and then I got sick... tired... weary...
It sometimes comes to my mind that the crux of the matter is not so much "let English be the one and unique langage in aviation for safer skies"... than "let us kill those stinky French frog eaters !"...
and it seems to be recurrent on pprune... it's a shame...
When it comes to bilingual airspace, it always comes back to French-English airspace, and then ends up in "French controllers' deplorable level of English..."... strange that you rarely write about the French Canadian airspace... where both language are also used...
I agree that one language is better, I'm in favour of that, although I'm an ATCO at CDG (please, don't puke on my shoes thanks...
), especially on tower and ground frequencies.
But then I regret that continuing French bashing and narrow mindedness....
Let me remind you that when I read that "the English invented av iation"... I kind of laugh because the Wrights were American... and Clément Ader invented the first aeroplane, which he named "avion"
It sometimes comes to my mind that the crux of the matter is not so much "let English be the one and unique langage in aviation for safer skies"... than "let us kill those stinky French frog eaters !"...
and it seems to be recurrent on pprune... it's a shame...
When it comes to bilingual airspace, it always comes back to French-English airspace, and then ends up in "French controllers' deplorable level of English..."... strange that you rarely write about the French Canadian airspace... where both language are also used...
I agree that one language is better, I'm in favour of that, although I'm an ATCO at CDG (please, don't puke on my shoes thanks...
), especially on tower and ground frequencies.But then I regret that continuing French bashing and narrow mindedness....
Let me remind you that when I read that "the English invented av iation"... I kind of laugh because the Wrights were American... and Clément Ader invented the first aeroplane, which he named "avion"