Spotters released on bail
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Thanks for that quote Capt Andreas- we must be happy for small mercies- at least you saved us from reading much of your own original cerebrally-challenged material!
Perhaps you were too tired to write an original piece-it does get hot out there. Never mind, get one of those old history books out and remind yourself how great you were!
Ah the ancient nostalgia!
[ 16 December 2001: Message edited by: mach78 ]
Perhaps you were too tired to write an original piece-it does get hot out there. Never mind, get one of those old history books out and remind yourself how great you were!
Ah the ancient nostalgia!
[ 16 December 2001: Message edited by: mach78 ]
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Did someone say "those tourist that earn *Britain* a bad reputation throughout the world???
Mmmmmmhh?
I believe 10 or 12 are 'Brits'(English) & 2 are Dutch.
BBC news are the worst.......Good news, we are 'English,' & bad news we are 'British.'
'Anglo- French' Blah blah blah
Mmmmmmhh?
I believe 10 or 12 are 'Brits'(English) & 2 are Dutch.
BBC news are the worst.......Good news, we are 'English,' & bad news we are 'British.'
'Anglo- French' Blah blah blah
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Of course in this day and age such attitudes by the Greek gov. are outdated with all the high tec ways of obtaining visual information BUT that does not negate the fact that the airports in Greece are well placarded by DO NOT PHOTOGRAPH. Therefore these plane spotters should respect the area that they are planning to photograph and accept the consequences. 
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Good writings Andreas, you are a true 'Kalamaras'
If I came from Hellenic stock I would have written:
I think the Greeks are quite right in protecting their security for which they are so admirably renowned. An example to all these second-class EU countries. Passengers and crews should appreciate this unrelenting vigilance. It instills confidence with all those flying in or out of Greece - military or civil.
Innocent plane-spotters? It could have been one of these spying foreigners who placed a bomb on the BEA comet at Athens airport in 1967 killing all on board (Ath/Nic).
You should also bear in mind that the language is superior, and little understood or appreciated by the rest of the world. It makes foreigners think we related to that other Greek civilisation many centuries ago which was the cradle of civilisation etc.etc.
Anyway the tourists think so!
We stood back to back and died to the last man on the Parthenon to defend our marbles
(although we were only told what they really were when the tourists started to arrive)
In the event they were flogged to an 'Englezi' second-hand dealer called Elgin,who did know what they were.
And, with our little kilts we will defend to the last against any Johnny Turk - we don't need your Byrons (Lord George Byron founded the first plane-spotters association)
So, foreigners, reflect on all this before you cast the first stone. You will always enjoy renowned Greek hospitality (If you have money to pay for it of course!!)
If I came from Hellenic stock I would have written:
I think the Greeks are quite right in protecting their security for which they are so admirably renowned. An example to all these second-class EU countries. Passengers and crews should appreciate this unrelenting vigilance. It instills confidence with all those flying in or out of Greece - military or civil.
Innocent plane-spotters? It could have been one of these spying foreigners who placed a bomb on the BEA comet at Athens airport in 1967 killing all on board (Ath/Nic).
You should also bear in mind that the language is superior, and little understood or appreciated by the rest of the world. It makes foreigners think we related to that other Greek civilisation many centuries ago which was the cradle of civilisation etc.etc.
Anyway the tourists think so!
We stood back to back and died to the last man on the Parthenon to defend our marbles
(although we were only told what they really were when the tourists started to arrive)
In the event they were flogged to an 'Englezi' second-hand dealer called Elgin,who did know what they were.
And, with our little kilts we will defend to the last against any Johnny Turk - we don't need your Byrons (Lord George Byron founded the first plane-spotters association)
So, foreigners, reflect on all this before you cast the first stone. You will always enjoy renowned Greek hospitality (If you have money to pay for it of course!!)
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Well! I sense bitterness in the ... air :-)
I wonder why!! Anyway I just quoted Mr.Rob Allwright from London.
I do not (really) understand the history lessons, the air-disaster lessons, the down under lessons (numbered or not).
I thought this posting was all about planespotting!!!
Sorry to bother you, but I'll just go do some planeflying and leave the spotting to you
I wonder why!! Anyway I just quoted Mr.Rob Allwright from London.
I do not (really) understand the history lessons, the air-disaster lessons, the down under lessons (numbered or not).
I thought this posting was all about planespotting!!!
Sorry to bother you, but I'll just go do some planeflying and leave the spotting to you
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There's a lot of talk about photography going on....the one guy out of the group that I know had his film processed, and it was found to be of the Athens Museum (permitted) and a scrapyard (OK because it was not a military area). I've not seen it stated anywhere that any of the films contained any forbidden photos. If there had been, I think the spying charge would have stuck. The original charge was photography at Kalamata, but the cameras were in the bus. The truth will out one day, but the group have maintained that they did not take pictures in defiance of the rules. It still seems like a misunderstanding to me.
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Well, I said the truth will out; here's a report from the other side. This is the e-mail sent to me by one of the group; it's also been posted on some enthusiasts' forums, so some of you may be aware of this already. Whether you choose to believe or not is up to you, but I've known this guy for thirty years, and I know who I believe!
"Having returned from 37 days captivity in Greece I have caught up on
some (by no means all) of the discussion on this and other forums. I am not
prepared to enter into debate on this topic (I will in due course be tried
by the Greek courts, not by MSF) and this will be my only posting on the
subject, but I feel compelled to present some facts, particularly in view of
the many inaccuracies I have noted in the media reporting of this ongoing
affair (even as recently as the Greek Ambassador's letter printed in today's
(Tuesday's) Daily Mail).
Allegation: "The group were arrested at Tanagra and warned not to continue".
Fact: The group were not arrested but assisted Police/HAF/Intelligence
officers with their enquiries (after a Greek civilian mistook use of
binoculars for photography). No warning was issued and the group were told
"You have done nothing illegal". The authorities apologised for delaying the
group. Interestingly, the Greek Ambassador's letter in today's Daily Mail
states
that the warning was given by a magistrate. This makes it all the easier to
prove
false since at no time was any magistrate involved in the check at Tanagra
at all.
Allegation: "They were warned three times and still took photographs".
Fact: At the three HAF Open Days attended by the group, guards at the gate
informed the group that photography was not permitted (it was permitted last
year). As a result, no photographs were taken and cameras remained secured
in
camera bags within the vehicles. At no point on the trip did ANY member of
the
group take ANY photographs at ANY Greek military installation.
Fact: Photographs were taken at Athens War Museum, Mesolongi (museum),
Vonitsa (scrap metal dealer - chopped up 1952/53 vintage F-84Fs), Hellenikon
(the old Athens civil airport, now superceded by Sparta).
Fact: All photographs (from films confiscated at Tanagra and Kalamata) have
been
perused by the authorities and have been assessed as having no security
implications.
Photographs no longer form part of the prosecution case, nor have they since
the end of our first week in captivity, despite their being quoted as the
basis
of the evidence for "espionage" charges (also no longer relevant) as
recently as last
Wednesday on CNN.
Allegation: "The group were intoxicated when apprehended".
Fact: I was frankly totally amazed to read of this allegation which I was
unaware of until my return. The group were apprehended at around 17:00hrs.
No alcohol had been consumed by any member of the group on the day in
question. Indeed, on the three previous nights no one had indulged in any
more than a few social drinks with their evening meal.
Opinion: In my opinion there are only two explanations for this allegation,
one would be an an error in translation ("The group were 'interrogated' when
apprehended"??) whilst the other is a deliberate and malicious attempt to
smear
the group.
Allegation: "The group trespassed on Greek military bases".
Fact: No trespass took place whatsoever. The three bases entered by the
group were Araxos, Andravidha and Kalamata at which we were admitted to the
open days upon production of passports. The trespass issue arose only
because the authorities believed that serials at Megara could only have been
obtained by trespassing on the base. Aircraft and helicopters at Megara can
be identified from public roads around the airfield using binoculars (and
indeed several can be read with the naked eye).
Allegation: "When the investigating officers analysed the logbooks kept by
the group,
they found those included flight timetables and eavesdropping on
conversations
between pilots and Air Force ground controllers".
Fact: The scanner inadvertantly taken by one member of the group was at no
time switched on in Greece. Therefore no conversations were overheard. Even
if
they had been, I presume military conversations would have been in Greek,
which
even after 37 days none of us speak. The first Greek military aircraft we
saw airborne
were seen from the courtroom in Kalamata during our first appearance. My own
log book
(which ended at Heathrow on departure) includes take-off and landing times
of those airliners
in which I have been a passenger during the last few months.
Fact: The scanner no longer forms part of the evidence against the group. An
expert witness appeared
on our behalf at the second court appearance and proved to the
interrogating magistrate that scanners
could be freely bought over the counter in Greece, were used by numerous
Greek radio hobbyists, and
that Greece was party to (though had not yet ratified) an EU law legalising
the use of scanners.
Other relevant facts are:-
This was the third occasion on which Touchdown had visited Greece. Previous
visits in 1998 and 2000
went off without a hitch. Photography was permitted at most bases in 2000
(the situation being checked
and double checked at each base).
The Hellenic AF had been informed in writing of the group's intention to
visit as many bases as possible during the HAF open days (8th-11th
November 2001). Despite this I have seen reference to Touchdown being
invited to
one Open Day and unilaterally extending the invite to include the rest. This
allegation is false.
Foreign nationals are (in recent years) permitted to attend these open days
without prior permission. Written authority to visit was sought and obtained
by Touchdown as a 'belt and braces' to prevent any misunderstandings (in
which respect it was obviously unsuccessful).
The Hellenic AF was in possession of names, passport numbers, dates of
birth, and occupations of all members of the group and approval had been
given
at Brigadier General level for Touchdown to attend the open days.
The group were sensitive to the post September 11th situation. The Hellenic
AF
were contacted by fax and by telephone in the final days before the trip in
the expectation that it would be cancelled. The response was reassuring and
encouraged Touchdown to go ahead as planned. If there was a problem due to
increased security, these communications would have been the ideal
opportunity to
close the trip down to the satisfaction of all concerned (both the Greeks
and the group).
The group were detained "for taking photographs" whilst attempting to leave
Kalamata base following their visit to the open day. As pointed out above,
no photographs were taken by any of the group at any Greek military base at
any
time during the trip.
My thanks to those who have expressed support and particularly to the many
who
have given so freely of their time to work towards our release. The many
messages of support and acts of kindness received by my family during my
absence,
and by all of us upon our return, have our heartfelt gratitude.
I have nothing to say to those who were so quick to offer public
condemnation
of the entire group (organisers and paying passengers alike) in the absence
of
any factual knowledge of the circumstances"
.......I've nothing to add to that!
"Having returned from 37 days captivity in Greece I have caught up on
some (by no means all) of the discussion on this and other forums. I am not
prepared to enter into debate on this topic (I will in due course be tried
by the Greek courts, not by MSF) and this will be my only posting on the
subject, but I feel compelled to present some facts, particularly in view of
the many inaccuracies I have noted in the media reporting of this ongoing
affair (even as recently as the Greek Ambassador's letter printed in today's
(Tuesday's) Daily Mail).
Allegation: "The group were arrested at Tanagra and warned not to continue".
Fact: The group were not arrested but assisted Police/HAF/Intelligence
officers with their enquiries (after a Greek civilian mistook use of
binoculars for photography). No warning was issued and the group were told
"You have done nothing illegal". The authorities apologised for delaying the
group. Interestingly, the Greek Ambassador's letter in today's Daily Mail
states
that the warning was given by a magistrate. This makes it all the easier to
prove
false since at no time was any magistrate involved in the check at Tanagra
at all.
Allegation: "They were warned three times and still took photographs".
Fact: At the three HAF Open Days attended by the group, guards at the gate
informed the group that photography was not permitted (it was permitted last
year). As a result, no photographs were taken and cameras remained secured
in
camera bags within the vehicles. At no point on the trip did ANY member of
the
group take ANY photographs at ANY Greek military installation.
Fact: Photographs were taken at Athens War Museum, Mesolongi (museum),
Vonitsa (scrap metal dealer - chopped up 1952/53 vintage F-84Fs), Hellenikon
(the old Athens civil airport, now superceded by Sparta).
Fact: All photographs (from films confiscated at Tanagra and Kalamata) have
been
perused by the authorities and have been assessed as having no security
implications.
Photographs no longer form part of the prosecution case, nor have they since
the end of our first week in captivity, despite their being quoted as the
basis
of the evidence for "espionage" charges (also no longer relevant) as
recently as last
Wednesday on CNN.
Allegation: "The group were intoxicated when apprehended".
Fact: I was frankly totally amazed to read of this allegation which I was
unaware of until my return. The group were apprehended at around 17:00hrs.
No alcohol had been consumed by any member of the group on the day in
question. Indeed, on the three previous nights no one had indulged in any
more than a few social drinks with their evening meal.
Opinion: In my opinion there are only two explanations for this allegation,
one would be an an error in translation ("The group were 'interrogated' when
apprehended"??) whilst the other is a deliberate and malicious attempt to
smear
the group.
Allegation: "The group trespassed on Greek military bases".
Fact: No trespass took place whatsoever. The three bases entered by the
group were Araxos, Andravidha and Kalamata at which we were admitted to the
open days upon production of passports. The trespass issue arose only
because the authorities believed that serials at Megara could only have been
obtained by trespassing on the base. Aircraft and helicopters at Megara can
be identified from public roads around the airfield using binoculars (and
indeed several can be read with the naked eye).
Allegation: "When the investigating officers analysed the logbooks kept by
the group,
they found those included flight timetables and eavesdropping on
conversations
between pilots and Air Force ground controllers".
Fact: The scanner inadvertantly taken by one member of the group was at no
time switched on in Greece. Therefore no conversations were overheard. Even
if
they had been, I presume military conversations would have been in Greek,
which
even after 37 days none of us speak. The first Greek military aircraft we
saw airborne
were seen from the courtroom in Kalamata during our first appearance. My own
log book
(which ended at Heathrow on departure) includes take-off and landing times
of those airliners
in which I have been a passenger during the last few months.
Fact: The scanner no longer forms part of the evidence against the group. An
expert witness appeared
on our behalf at the second court appearance and proved to the
interrogating magistrate that scanners
could be freely bought over the counter in Greece, were used by numerous
Greek radio hobbyists, and
that Greece was party to (though had not yet ratified) an EU law legalising
the use of scanners.
Other relevant facts are:-
This was the third occasion on which Touchdown had visited Greece. Previous
visits in 1998 and 2000
went off without a hitch. Photography was permitted at most bases in 2000
(the situation being checked
and double checked at each base).
The Hellenic AF had been informed in writing of the group's intention to
visit as many bases as possible during the HAF open days (8th-11th
November 2001). Despite this I have seen reference to Touchdown being
invited to
one Open Day and unilaterally extending the invite to include the rest. This
allegation is false.
Foreign nationals are (in recent years) permitted to attend these open days
without prior permission. Written authority to visit was sought and obtained
by Touchdown as a 'belt and braces' to prevent any misunderstandings (in
which respect it was obviously unsuccessful).
The Hellenic AF was in possession of names, passport numbers, dates of
birth, and occupations of all members of the group and approval had been
given
at Brigadier General level for Touchdown to attend the open days.
The group were sensitive to the post September 11th situation. The Hellenic
AF
were contacted by fax and by telephone in the final days before the trip in
the expectation that it would be cancelled. The response was reassuring and
encouraged Touchdown to go ahead as planned. If there was a problem due to
increased security, these communications would have been the ideal
opportunity to
close the trip down to the satisfaction of all concerned (both the Greeks
and the group).
The group were detained "for taking photographs" whilst attempting to leave
Kalamata base following their visit to the open day. As pointed out above,
no photographs were taken by any of the group at any Greek military base at
any
time during the trip.
My thanks to those who have expressed support and particularly to the many
who
have given so freely of their time to work towards our release. The many
messages of support and acts of kindness received by my family during my
absence,
and by all of us upon our return, have our heartfelt gratitude.
I have nothing to say to those who were so quick to offer public
condemnation
of the entire group (organisers and paying passengers alike) in the absence
of
any factual knowledge of the circumstances"
.......I've nothing to add to that!
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NOPAXTHANX
Thanks for that posting which was very telling and justifies the position some of us adopted re this unsavoury incident
In regard to your earlier question-what do you think I meant?!!
Techman
Have you wrote anything that I am unaware of that would make me think otherwise?
Thanks for that posting which was very telling and justifies the position some of us adopted re this unsavoury incident
In regard to your earlier question-what do you think I meant?!!
Techman
Have you wrote anything that I am unaware of that would make me think otherwise?
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Well Mach78, assumption is the mother of all **** ups.
For instance, you must be suffering from a severe case of xenophobia mixed with a good portion of a superiority complex, since you haven't written anything that would indicate otherwise.
But I would be wrong to assume so, would I not?.
For instance, you must be suffering from a severe case of xenophobia mixed with a good portion of a superiority complex, since you haven't written anything that would indicate otherwise.
But I would be wrong to assume so, would I not?.
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Well I think what you were trying to elaborate was that ASSUME makes an ass of you and me(I know it's hard for you, but think about it)
Xenophobia?-no I would think not, but I would agree to an element of Darwinism, in comparison of us both.
Speaking of which I think you could be a prime candidate for a Darwin Award if you could only assimilate the necessary courage and do the right thing by the human race and remove your genes for the future benefit of mankind.
Xenophobia?-no I would think not, but I would agree to an element of Darwinism, in comparison of us both.
Speaking of which I think you could be a prime candidate for a Darwin Award if you could only assimilate the necessary courage and do the right thing by the human race and remove your genes for the future benefit of mankind.